Rugd1022 Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 The RB looks superb Brian, it oozes 'quality' Are you going to bother 'toning down' the roof ribs on your Bachmann Mk1s to match the appearance of the RB? I've just spent a quite pleasant and theraputic half hour scraping them down on my FK and RU! Nidge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertcwp Posted January 7, 2011 Share Posted January 7, 2011 Hi Dave, Yes, that's right, the Western Region had five RFs (with RSOs) from the early 50s, the later LMR RFs were quite different. I made a pair in maroon a few years back, by chopping up a Comet 3-car set. Luckily, we managed to persuade Bob Reid (Bob-65B) to produce etched sides for the 2-car sets, which made life easier. I did a RF in carmine and cream for Robert C, shown earlier on RMweb. There is evidence that W301 and a RSO were repainted chocolate and cream for the Red Dragon. Cheers, Brian. Here is my Diagram 16 RF built by Brian Kirby on a Bachmann RU base using etched sides made by Bob Reid: Comet and Southern Pride both do the other Mark I RF, the very different Diagram 17 built for the LMR in the early 1960s. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 8, 2011 Author Share Posted January 8, 2011 Ta Nidge, I wish i could take better photograghs though . . . I'm about halfway though the fleet on roof ribs, there's a mixture so far in The Bristolian. Trouble is, i keep buying more new ones, the two FKs were hot out of the box, with the B4 bogies already fitted at Chez Bachmann's. I find removing roof ribs is a nice job when sitting in a deckchair, down the garden (when the weather's warmer). Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Ta Nidge, I wish i could take better photograghs though . . . I'm about halfway though the fleet on roof ribs, there's a mixture so far in The Bristolian. Trouble is, i keep buying more new ones, the two FKs were hot out of the box, with the B4 bogies already fitted at Chez Bachmann's. I find removing roof ribs is a nice job when sitting in a deckchair, down the garden (when the weather's warmer). Cheers, Brian. It's surprising just how much difference it makes to the overall appearence when you scrape the ribs down, I've done all of mine now and am pleased with the results. The first one I did was a blue / grey RU, after I'd already repainted the roof a slightly darker shade of matt grey, so scraping the ribs down showed up the lighter grey underneath which looks ok. One thing I've noticed on the Bachmann FK and RU.... the B4 bogie on the FK has smaller diameter wheels than those on the Commonwealth bogied RU, is this correct? Next job is to open them up to do the curtains....! Nidge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yep, the B4 bogies had smaller wheels (3ft and a bit, as opposed to 3ft 7in and a bit). According to the history books, the main reason for the smaller size was to save weight, but they couldn't do that until they had better axlebox bearings in the early 60s, that could run faster. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 Yep, the B4 bogies had smaller wheels (3ft and a bit, as opposed to 3ft 7in and a bit). BK Almost, Brian. BR1 and Commonwealth bogies had 3' 6" dia. wheels (Parkin, 1st ed. p.3), the 3' 7+bit" was the pre-Nat. size. It's amazing, half a century on from their introduction, how many people still don't realise B4s should have smaller wheels. Same applies to 1st generation DMUs too - I chuckled when reading an old RM article (1981) where someone was P4ing a Lima DMU and replaced the almost 12mm dia. wheels with incorrect larger wheels and had to slice the brake shoes back! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 9, 2011 Author Share Posted January 9, 2011 Thanks for that Bernie, We'd better just stick to calling them 12mm or 14mm wheels ! Was the DMU in P4 article, the infamous Lea Valley unit conversion ? The chap had trouble with the compartment spacing and ended up making the trailer about an inch longer than it should of been ! But he got the track gauge right. Think it was a copy of "Model Trains"? Shouldn't laugh really. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 BR1 and Commonwealth bogies had 3' 6" dia. wheels (Parkin, 1st ed. p.3), the 3' 7+bit" was the pre-Nat. size. It is interesting to note that in the Parkin Supplement - Carriage Standards Committee minute 2515 from 29/06/1960 - there was a suggestion that old worn LMS 3' 7.5" wheelsets could be re-used for BR 3' 6" ones, although only for non-corridor stock. There was no follow-up minute, so it is not known whether this ever occurred. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BernardTPM Posted January 9, 2011 Share Posted January 9, 2011 It was a bubble car conversion, but, yes, I remember that one too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Brian, do you intend writing up the FO and RF? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 11, 2011 Author Share Posted January 11, 2011 Brian, do you intend writing up the FO and RF? Yeah sure, can do, although i'll have to buy some Comet FO sides first. I've got the RF and RSO for doing the Red Dragon, although something blue might jump the queue. Everything's on hold at the moment, gotta do my tax return before i can play trains again ! BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dasatcopthorne Posted January 11, 2011 Share Posted January 11, 2011 Thanks for that Bernie, We'd better just stick to calling them 12mm or 14mm wheels ! Was the DMU in P4 article, the infamous Lea Valley unit conversion ? The chap had trouble with the compartment spacing and ended up making the trailer about an inch longer than it should of been ! But he got the track gauge right. Think it was a copy of "Model Trains"? Shouldn't laugh really. BK Oi! That was my conversion. Only joking :rolleyes: Dave Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks Larry, Besides the RB with Commonwealth bogies, all other vehicles have Swindon's new B4 bogies. This train and the Red Dragon rake were used as test-beds for the new bogie design, i've just used Bachmann B4s, although strictly speaking these originals had detail differences. Interesting you mention the Red Dragon with the prototype B4 bogies (i'm not sure if they had the torsion bars fitted on the prototype at that point or it was a different type as seen in the Parkin book) as i've only found 2 shots of coaches in the rake that show them rather than BR1, it must have been just the one summer or something? I noticed the rakes changed a bit in '61 compared to 60 when researching which is annoying when you want to span even a couple of years! The 3'6inch wheel is an annoying issue in P4 trying to design an etched bogie as all of the wheels available are greater than 14mm (14.2 - 14.5) to represent 3' 7 1/2 so you can't have anything close to scale brake clearances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Hi Craig, There was a visual difference, between the trial and production B4s, although i'm not worrying about that at this stage. To me, the trial bogies somehow looked plainer, i'll have to do some more studying. I'm not even sure if the two "B4 rakes" were rebogied from existing chocolate and cream stock or otherwise ? Also pics do show occasional substitutions with individual B1 bogied coaches, probably as a result of a failure. The post-61 Red Dragon was all B4, except for the Mk1 RF and RSO vehicles. As far as i know, the two B4 rakes ran throughout 1962, and at least until mid-63, after which cine film evidence shows odd B4 bogied coaches running in other rakes. This may also have been as a result of the BRB directive to break up all the chocolate and cream rakes after 1962 ? I'm amazed that nobody makes a 3ft 6in wheel in P4. Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bob Reid Posted January 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2011 Interesting you mention the Red Dragon with the prototype B4 bogies (i'm not sure if they had the torsion bars fitted on the prototype at that point or it was a different type as seen in the Parkin book) as i've only found 2 shots of coaches in the rake that show them rather than BR1, it must have been just the one summer or something? I noticed the rakes changed a bit in '61 compared to 60 when researching which is annoying when you want to span even a couple of years! The 3'6inch wheel is an annoying issue in P4 trying to design an etched bogie as all of the wheels available are greater than 14mm (14.2 - 14.5) to represent 3' 7 1/2 so you can't have anything close to scale brake clearances. The B4s used were I believe the B4 MkII version (Mk II Bogie version not MkII coach)! - Parkin shows these in the photo marked "a pre-production B4 bogie....." these had a totally different brake arrangement of bogie brakegear however the most obvious feature was the lack of the bonded rubber/steel friction damper assembly you see either side of the primary springs attached to the axlebox castings and bogie frame on all bar the hydraulic damper fitted B4s. They were otherwise outwardly similar to the production B4s. As far as the Parkin "early trial" photo is concerned we've yet to determine what vehicle that bogie was fitted to as any photo's or concrete info is yet to surface (though a pair according to Parkin completed 140,000 miles)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks for that Bob, i was about to pick your brains on this one. Another issue, what happened to the trial bogies after the test running ? Were they all removed as non-standard or were they rebuilt and brought up to the new standard, or did the 20-odd pairs of trial bogies carry on in service as built ? Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 13, 2011 Author Share Posted January 13, 2011 Apart from the technical engineering differences that Bob has pointed out, the most obvious visual difference appears to be the total lack of steps and even step brackets on the main horizontal beams of the early trial B4s. BK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Bob Reid Posted January 13, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 13, 2011 Thanks for that Bob, i was about to pick your brains on this one. Another issue, what happened to the trial bogies after the test running ? Were they all removed as non-standard or were they rebuilt and brought up to the new standard, or did the 20-odd pairs of trial bogies carry on in service as built ? Cheers, Brian. They would appear to have continued in service Brian - they certainly kept issuing amendments to the specific drawings for them, and it would have been easy enough to bring them up to spec - being that close to the final design (not that there really was a final design anyway)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 .....Was the DMU in P4 article, the infamous Lea Valley unit conversion ? The chap had trouble with the compartment spacing and ended up making the trailer about an inch longer than it should of been ! But he got the track gauge right. Think it was a copy of "Model Trains"? Shouldn't laugh really. BK There was a similar story (probably apocryphal) about a past ModelRail(?) article on building the Glasgow "Blue Train" from one of Charlie Petty's kits. One car allegedly ended up almost twice as long another! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 The post-61 Red Dragon was all B4, except for the Mk1 RF and RSO vehicles. As far as i know, the two B4 rakes ran throughout 1962, and at least until mid-63, after which cine film evidence shows odd B4 bogied coaches running in other rakes. This may also have been as a result of the BRB directive to break up all the chocolate and cream rakes after 1962 ? Ahj post 61, for some reason i'd got it in my head they were supposed to have been introduced in '61! That explains it as the photo i'm looking at right now is p35 south wales main line pt1 and its 30-03-62 on the B4 bogie. Most of the pics are from 61 and BR1 bogies so i'm ok to use the same coaches for 60 and 61 . Have you managed to get exact coach numbers for these sets? Does the info exist as i'd like to know coaches used in the Capitals if the info is out there. I should probably ask on the Yahoo group but its a slow project this one! Hope you aren't doing that rake too in the future! Its possible Ultrascale does a true 14mm wheel but they cost more than the coaches and ideally you'd want something like 13.8mm anyway for a bit of wear. Great info from Bob there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Rather than "Post-61", perhaps what i should of said was "from the latter part of 1961 onwards", but i can't remember the exact date. I'll check with Robert C, to see if he can give more accurate dates. You'd still be o.k. for the earlier rake into 1961. The only relevant B4 coach numbers i have, are for odd vehicles gleaned from photos (e.g. W13074). The Capitals United would be a nice one to do, 11 coaches in late'61, 9 of which are covered by Bachmann with B1 bogies. The other two are listed as "Diner" and "SO", probably a GW Restaurant Compo and GW Open Third/Second, but i could be wrong. There is a slim chance that the SO was another Mk1 occasionally, i'd better check some more pics. Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 Up to a point I can help, or more correctly the Railway Observer can. Red Dragon - was re-equipped in December 1956 with the following stock: FKs 13068 and 13074, CK 15078, BCKs 21021 and 21125, SKs 24384, 25136, 25149 and 25150, BSKs 34897 and 34898. It soldiered on with GW design catering vehicles in January 1962 when it got RF 301 and, it is said, RSO 1009. How long any of these coaches stayed in the set is one of those good questions ... Photos from circa 1962 also show a BG in the set but not which one! Capitals United - sadly whoever contributed or edited the info in the RO was more interested in the Dragon than the Capitals [sorry Craig]. What we do know is that it was given RU 1903 in August 1957 and 1914 in May 1958. How long 1814 was in the set is not known but it was in the Pembroke Coast Express in May 1959 when it was derailed at Slough. Chris Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted January 14, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 14, 2011 there are a couple of pics in the parkin book of choc/cream coaches with the 'pre-production' B4s, i.e. do not have the friction dampers on the wheelsets. the coaches are BCK W21188 (p.62) and FO W3085 (p.83), coaches K and G respectively of what seems to be the same train in august 1962. the coaches have nameboards, but they are reversed (which according to the caption, happened when a coaching stock roster involved working a non-named service or a different route) the only other bogie of the train that can be seen, is not a B4 (can't quite make it out) incedentally there's a colour pic of maroon FO M3000 on p.49, taken in 1968. it has similar B4 bogies, without the friction dampers, suggesting a re-bogie with one of these earlier types? finally it mentions in the text on p.37 "a short production batch was put into service beneath the 'bristolian' and the 'red dragon'" and once it was "clear the 150,000 mile acceptable ride target would be met....it was announced that from 1963 this would be the standard (bogie) for all BR coaches." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brian Kirby Posted January 14, 2011 Author Share Posted January 14, 2011 Many Thanks to Chris and Keefer, Once again, plenty of useful info from the good old Railway Observer. W13074 was certainly one of the re-bogied with B4s coaches (as now produced by Bachmann), so this info hints that the existing coaches in the rake were re-bogied and there are the numbers right before us. There's a lovely colour picture of W13074 in this condition, in Robert Hendry's coach book, albeit taken in July 64 when the coach has been cascaded to the Paddington to Birkenhead service. The two B4 rakes were probably replaced with new maroon Commonwealth bogied stock. W301 joining the Red Dragon in Jan 62, could also give us a good start date for the B4 rake, whereas i thought it was late 61. The Mk1 BG was certainly in the RD as early as 1960, as depicted in "Titled Trains of the Western" (IA). In the same book is a pic of the Capitals United with a RU included, alas no exact date, this would account for "Diner" in the make up. The two pics in Parkin are almost certainly from the Bristolian rake, but this is probably the un-named Saturday Up working. Two clues, the carriage boards are reversed and it's steam-hauled. Well spotted on M3000, perhaps they are ex-trial bogies as you say ? (Over to Bob-65B !) Thanks again for looking things up. Cheers, Brian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark54 Posted January 14, 2011 Share Posted January 14, 2011 I think you will find that all early B4s didn't have the dampers including XP64 and early Mk2s. Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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