RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 12, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2018 Stunning structure John. Very very impressive. Can I ask what the origin of the silver hopper wagons in the back ground of the last shot are? Thanks Tinker I guess you mean this? I think its from Dapol......15+- years old..... part of the LMS Bidston Docks-Stafford Iron Ore train .........out for its annual outing. Hopefully you will see them more frequently now its hauled by the Super D.......once I have tightened up the routine the plan is to do a video Best Wishes John 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 12, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2018 Thanks for all the likes guys....much appreciated. Taken a break from the brewery this week, apart from all the cutting....... Mrs D wanted her kitchen back. So I finally got round to finishing the 72xx You may recall that my only disappointment with the loco was the missing bunker door and rather poor widow grilles. 1 Rear Angle.jpg 2 Old back close up.jpg I decided to buy the Brassmasters detailing etch 3 Fret.jpg The etch includes a number of improvements to the under frame. I just focussed on the cab back wall and bunker. You can see it in the etch......bottom right corner and virtually ready to plonk......although I did have to punch out some rivets. Brassmasters helpfully include some test rivets to practice with in the etch border. You can see my attempts at the top. The cab roof was moderately easy to remove....it was just held in place with a couple of dabs of glue 4 Open rear windows.jpg Removal of the roof made it easy to pop out the glazing and grilles. The window openings had to be opened up a bit with a file to match the larger (correct) openings in the etch wall 6 Grilles and Fender.jpg Sorry about the yucky green....photoshop went mad The wall in place with grilles superglued. Having created the 72xx by welding on a bunker extension, the GWR subsequently added a fender guard to further increase the coal capacity and also protect the top lamp bracket! Creating the curves in the brass etch stretched my technical ability somewhat but I am reasonably happy with the result 8 Painted.jpg Crew inserted, roof glued back on and the wall and fender painted. The join between wall and roof is a little obvious and I should really have been more careful with my test fitting. The observant will note the loco has also lost its engraved number plate. When it came off I put in a "safe" place on top of the roof where I wouldnt miss it.........which I promptly did the following morning when I picked the loco up Not a happy day...........fortunately I found it a few days later amongst the deritrus that accumulates under my work bench.......I also found one of the front steps that had gone AWOL. I rushed out to buy a lottery ticket but sadly I had used all my luck that day.....not complaining mind. Next step was the addition of real coal, class D Head Lamp codes and some pretty heavy weathering to reflect the grime accumulated during the war years........ Job done....... I spent a happy afternoon testing 7226 as she hauled 46.10 Up mixed freight from Birkenhead Docks . Here she is passing Granby sheds 9 weathered.jpg and heading over the viaduct 10 rear view.jpg I took a load more photos of the "testing" . Will post some more when edited.. On balance I think the ten quid spent on the Brassmasters etch was money well spent. Best wishes from Vancouver where, unlike the UK, it remains cold but sunny......longest dry period since the summer! John Sorry John to drag this up but with the purchase of another 72xx this is of interest. Not all 72xx's received that bunker guard but I can't find a rear photo of the one I want to model ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 12, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hi Robin What number are you after? The brassmasters help notes implied that bunker fenders were retrofitted to most, but not all 72xx starting in 1938. I selected 7226 because it was shedded at Oxley in 1947......I must confess that I fitted the fender guard because it was a modelling challenge rather than on proper research......the irony of the GWR fitting them also amused me........I subsequently found a photo of the 7226 at Leamington in 1938 but its not really conclusive either way. I am afraid I am not much help........Mike posted some very detailed notes about the class differences......not sure if he mentioned the guards though Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 12, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hi Robin What number are you after? The brassmasters help notes implied that bunker fenders were retrofitted to most, but not all 72xx starting in 1938. I selected 7226 because it was shedded at Oxley in 1947......I must confess that I fitted the fender guard because it was a modelling challenge rather than on proper research......the irony of the GWR fitting them also amused me........I subsequently found a photo of the 7226 at Leamington in 1938 but its not really conclusive either way. I am afraid I am not much help........Mike posted some very detailed notes about the class differences......not sure if he mentioned the guards though Best wishes John 7220 is favourite and I'll probably fit it anyway. There's a couple of photos of here in the Irwell Press book but not of its rear. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 'Evening Gets, Mike the Stationmaster did indeed post a very detailed survey of difference between the bunkers of different 72xxs, though that was not primarily about fenders:- http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49734-gwr-8-coupled-tank-engines/?p=571493 There is good news and bad. First the good news. In John Hodge's superb "The North & West Route Volume3B" there is a photograph of 7220 dated post 1956 clearly showing that it did not have a fender fitted at the time. Does that prove that the loco didn't have one in 1947? Sadly no, at least not conclusively. Now the bad news. In the same book is a photo of 7210 dated 1964 WITH a fender fitted. Unfortunately, in David Maidment's equally excellent "Great Western Weight Coupled Heavy Freight Locomotives" the same loco is seen in 1953 WITHOUT a fender guard! The above proves nothing more than we all know already, namely that there is no substitute for an actual photo taken in the period one chooses to model! As we've discussed before, the period you guys are modelling was one of extreme depravation and hardship. High quality photographs of locomotives taken in that period are rare; those of heavy freight locos far rarer. All of which poses a good question: "Just how fastidious should one be about details like this?" For me, the answer is "as fastidious as the best historical evidence you can find allows you to be". In short, if you know with certainty that something was a particular way, then model it that way. But if it's uncertain, I think modeller's license is entirely reasonable! Put it another way gents, if I had built a layout to the same standard as either of your excellent works and an invited guest found fault with with the bunker fender on my Hornby 72xx I think I would be throwing him or her out of the door by their ear! One final and entirely unrelated point. I've just found this wonderful photograph of "Marington Hall" and "King George III" at Kingswear circa 1947:- https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-4-6-0s/i-TgrMsxz/A Of note is the Collet 'Bow End' coach still in wartime brown and what looks to be a 'Centenary' vehicle behind the King. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 12, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 12, 2018 Great post Andy........definitely "friendly and supportive"........thank you! Our posts crossed.....after Robin's reply I found Mike's post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49734-gwr-8-coupled-tank-engines/?hl=%2Bgwr+%2Bcoupled+%2Btank+%2Bengines: Here is the relevant and not unhelpful quote (my bold) The addition of the recessed fender above the bunker top started in 1938 and by 1946 only one loco was noted as unaltered. I would go for it Robin! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
County of Yorkshire Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 (edited) One final and entirely unrelated point. I've just found this wonderful photograph of "Marington Hall" and "King George III" at Kingswear circa 1947:- https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-4-6-0s/i-TgrMsxz/A Of note is the Collet 'Bow End' coach still in wartime brown and what looks to be a 'Centenary' vehicle behind the King. Andy. Yes, that's a bow-ended C54 C60/C62 (inset door handles - not commode handles as the C54 had) third in what has to be wartime brown, with an LMS corridor third (?) behind it. The coach behind the King isn't a centenary, it's a D124 brake third of 1937 with its end door open. Cheers, CoY Edited February 12, 2018 by County of Yorkshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 The coach behind the King isn't a centenary, it's a D124 brake third of 1937 with its end door open. Cheers, CoY Thanks COY. There's a darn good reason why I never post on RMWeb about carriages and wagons...it's called total ignorance! I'm glad someone on here knows what they're talking about...... Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted February 13, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 13, 2018 I've just found this wonderful photograph of "Marington Hall" and "King George III" at Kingswear circa 1947:- https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-4-6-0s/i-TgrMsxz/A Of note is the Collet 'Bow End' coach still in wartime brown Andy. Brilliant photo - thanks Andy. This is why I feel this is the best period to model the GWR - such a wide variety of coaching stock in a wide variety of liveries. A lined King and an unlined Hall with a tender with the later G**W branding. Chocolate and cream and Wartime Brown. LMS stock in certain trains. How close they got to West London I am not sure but it hasn't stopped my from buying three LMS coaches this month. Thanks for posting that up. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 Would 4943 be a good candidate to rename the forthcoming Bachmann Hall then chaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Great post Andy........definitely "friendly and supportive"........thank you! Our posts crossed.....after Robin's reply I found Mike's post http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/49734-gwr-8-coupled-tank-engines/?hl=%2Bgwr+%2Bcoupled+%2Btank+%2Bengines: Here is the relevant and not unhelpful quote (my bold) The addition of the recessed fender above the bunker top started in 1938 and by 1946 only one loco was noted as unaltered. I would go for it Robin! Hi Gents, I'm afraid I'm going to be a P.I.T.A. by questioning the above, if only for the purpose of historical accuracy. If you re-read Stationmaster's paragraph the context of his remark is the 2-8-0 tanks, not necessarily the 7200s. I'll happily be corrected if someone can prove otherwise, but there are simply too many photos dated post '46 of 7200s without the fender fitted for me to believe they all (but one) had them in '46. Here's a few I found with a cursory search of the web:- 7204 & 7234 https://flic.kr/p/8RwQCm 7205 http://www.ipernity.com/doc/philsutters/26503535 7209 https://flic.kr/p/9tZ67N 7211 https://goo.gl/36qb7v 7213 https://flic.kr/p/eafpLn 7225 http://www.geoffspages.co.uk/monorail/kg04.htm 7235 https://flic.kr/p/dqEWjx 7236 https://flic.kr/p/o11Vyr 7240 https://flic.kr/p/qZZetw 7245 https://goo.gl/g6QKCW 7247 https://flic.kr/p/jqrPGG 7249 https://flic.kr/p/WDZ5E3 In addition to the above that I can share with you, I have copyright photos of 7202/7203/7210/7227 all running in BR service without fenders. That's 17 or roughly a third of the entire class! The usually reliable gwr.org website (http://www.gwr.org.uk/no-heavy-tanks.html) is much more circumspect about the fitting of fenders and said the following:- “The situation regarding bunker fenders on 72xx locos – certainly in the first group of original rebuilds – seems to have varied very much from loco to loco and is best checked, if at all possible, by reference to dated photos as some seem to have lasted quite late without fenders and were probably withdrawn without them.” My theory (and it is only a theory) is that the fitting of the fender guard was of far more urgent on the 2-8-0 tanks than the 7200s because of their limited bunker capacity. The early 7200s had 6 ton coal capacity anyway, the same as a standard Collett 400 gallon tender! I hope this is of use, and I will happily ‘wear sackcloth and ashes’ if I am incorrect. Regards to all, Andy. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Would 4943 be a good candidate to rename the forthcoming Bachmann Hall then chaps. Hi Rob, You may recall that in a previous incarnation I PM'd you a photo of the self same loco slogging up Dainton with a freight at roughly the same time (circa 1948). Seems a bit coincidental doesn't it? According to BRDatabase it was a London Division engine from November '47 onwards. Unfortunately it doesn't say where it was based prior to that. Does anyone have the appropriate "Book of the Hall 4-6-0s" as this might reveal its allocation prior to then? In terms of physical differences, 4943 should be the same as Bachmann's forthcoming 4920. The cab side handrails should be the same and neither should have a fire-iron tunnel. One thing I have noted about the product images for the new model: they've omitted the capuchon on the chimney which they also did with the 'Modified Hall' model of 2016. That's incorrect for either type of Hall until the 1950s. I'll explain. The Halls and Modified Halls had three different chimneys during their careers. The original chimney was fitted to the Collet Halls only. It was tall and had a lip or capuchon around the leading edge. The second chimney was wider and shorter than the first and also had a capuchon. It was fitted to the Modified Halls when new and many Collett Halls also when new. The final chimney design came about as a result of trials conducted by Sam Ell on 7916 'Moberley Hall' in 1951 in an attempt the improve the steaming of the class on the poor fuel then available. The final Hall chimney was tall, narrow and devoid of a capuchon. It was fitted initially to the Hawksworth AK variant of the Swindon No.1 boiler built for the Modified Halls. These boilers were routinely swapped between different 'Halls' when they went to Swindon for major overhaul, so eventually many Collett Halls as well as Modified Halls had the new narrow chimney. So, at the very least a capuchon needs to be fitted to the top of the chimney - very easily done with some suitable plasticard or brass or n/s strip. The super fastidious might want to replace it with a suitable casting (e.g. PDK or Gibson) as I think the height and width will be more accurate. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 Hi Rob, You may recall that in a previous incarnation I PM'd you a photo of the self same loco slogging up Dainton with a freight at roughly the same time (circa 1948). Seems a bit coincidental doesn't it? According to BRDatabase it was a London Division engine from November '47 onwards. Unfortunately it doesn't say where it was based prior to that. Does anyone have the appropriate "Book of the Hall 4-6-0s" as this might reveal its allocation prior to then? In terms of physical differences, 4943 should be the same as Bachmann's forthcoming 4920. The cab side handrails should be the same and neither should have a fire-iron tunnel. Andy. 4943 was an Old Oak engine then according to records I've found online. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 Hi Rob, So, at the very least a capuchon needs to be fitted to the top of the chimney - very easily done with some suitable plasticard or brass or n/s strip. The super fastidious might want to replace it with a suitable casting (e.g. PDK or Gibson) as I think the height and width will be more accurate. Andy. I didn’t realise that, I will have to sort it on my modified hall! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 13, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 72xx bunker fenders are becoming another GWR minefield.....they appear to be coming on or off with such frequency I wonder if they were attached with Velcro? Mine, on 7226, is firmly attached with super glue......it's staying put. Fortunately Andy hasn't found a photo of 7226 with it either on or off......probably best if you stop looking now Andy....please! 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 72xx bunker fenders are becoming another GWR minefield.....they appear to be coming on or off with such frequency I wonder if they were attached with Velcro? Mine, on 7226, is firmly attached with super glue......it's staying put. Fortunately Andy hasn't found a photo of 7226 with it either on or off......probably best if you stop looking now Andy....please! Nor me, the only shot of 7226 I've seen, is front on looking filthy at Swansea East Docks shed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted February 13, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 Nor me, the only shot of 7226 I've seen, is front on looking filthy at Swansea East Docks shed. I think I am right in 7250 having the deflector, I think mine is still fitted with the etched deflector from the Brassmasters pack (however given how often it fell off I am not 100% sure). A shame as I think it looks a lot better without! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Fortunately Andy hasn't found a photo of 7226 with it either on or off......probably best if you stop looking now Andy....please! No John, I've found something worse - it had a non-standard tall safety valve bonnet! http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls232.htm OK, I'm being naughty now. This photo was taken in 1938 and an awful lot of 'water passed under the bridge' between then and 1947! Seriously though gents, I would be mortified if this information that I am finding for you ceases to be of assistance or interest and instead becomes a scourge. There is only one purpose to models railways that I can see is to give pleasure to those who build, operate and admire them. Yep, it's better to be historically accurate than not, but if the pursuit of accuracy takes the joy out of the hobby for someone.........well let's just say I think they've missed the point. Andy. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 13, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 13, 2018 No John, I've found something worse - it had a non-standard tall safety valve bonnet! http://www.warwickshirerailways.com/gwr/gwrls232.htm OK, I'm being naughty now. This photo was taken in 1938 and an awful lot of 'water passed under the bridge' between then and 1947! Seriously though gents, I would be mortified if this information that I am finding for you ceases to be of assistance or interest and instead becomes a scourge. There is only one purpose to models railways that I can see is to give pleasure to those who build, operate and admire them. Yep, it's better to be historically accurate than not, but if the pursuit of accuracy takes the joy out of the hobby for someone.........well let's just say I think they've missed the point. Andy. Hi Andy I was only joking.......the ipad wouldnt let me access the rmweb jester and rmweb nuked the ipad emoti......so from the laptop here is what I omitted :jester: Please dont stop digging out this information. I find it absolutely invaluable....I cant and dont aim for perfection or indeed anything approaching fine scale but if I can get something historically correct I prefer to do so. Your research helps me enormously. Best wishes John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 John, I hope you will indulge me in illustrating my point about the three patterns of chimney fitted to the 'Halls'? Sounds like a good excuse to saviour some fabulous period photographs before 'retiring' for the day..... So, here's an examples of the early, tall chimney:- Here's a stonkingly atmospheric photo from 1947 of 6909 'Frewin Hall' alongside a Webb Coal tank attached to and equally antiquated looking carriage. The location could be Granby, but actually it's Newport:- https://mikemorant.smugmug.com/Trains-Railways-British-Isles/GWR-and-BRW/GWR-4-6-0s/i-nGsDPRL/A Now compare that with this equally atmospheric photo of 4949 'Packwood Hall" taken at Exeter St. Davids. The chimney is shorter, wider and appears to taper out towards the bottom:- https://goo.gl/2jj1tp When the 'Modified Halls' were constructed they were all fitted with this second chimney type. Here's another photo oozing period detail at Exeter St. Davids. Although I've picked this photo to illustrate a point about the locomotive's chimney, just look at those carriages! https://goo.gl/yRk2Xp Following the trials of 1951 most if not all of the Modified Halls got the new, capuchonless chimney. Because of the interchangeability of the standard No.1 boiler this chimney type ended up on 'Granges' as well as the older 'Collett Halls'. Here's Old Oak's 7904 'Fountians Hall', freshly ex-works and being oiled up by the driver and showing the final chimney design:- https://goo.gl/PsCQvX G'night all! Andy. 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted February 14, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2018 4943 was an Old Oak engine then according to records I've found online. Agreed - It is next on the purchase list for NC for that reason. To be finished in the same condition as photographed visiting Kingswear - unlined, Collet 4000 gallon tender with G**W logos, and rather grubby. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium M.I.B Posted February 14, 2018 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 14, 2018 When the 'Modified Halls' were constructed they were all fitted with this second chimney type. Here's another photo oozing period detail at Exeter St. Davids. Although I've picked this photo to illustrate a point about the locomotive's chimney, just look at those carriages! https://goo.gl/yRk2Xp What is that leading carriage with the ducket? Great selection of photos. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
7007GreatWestern Posted February 14, 2018 Share Posted February 14, 2018 What is that leading carriage with the ducket? Great selection of photos. The leading coach looks to be a Gresley Brake Third and the vehicle being it also appears to be a Gresley. Is that Autocoach one of the ones converted from being a Railmotor? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold john dew Posted February 15, 2018 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2018 (edited) Change of pace this week. The to do list keeps growing. A bunch of Modelu engine crew that I got in January needed painting. The black Dean Goods still hasn't got a driver http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_redface.gif and an unlined green Dean Goods on its way from Liverpool will need crew. Time to set up the people painting factory Sadly no placement fee from the Villages of Beaujolais.....just happy memories. There are three interlopers on the right but the rest are all from Modelu. For those unfamiliar with the brand they are 3D prints using images scanned from real people. There are some noticeable differences between these models and the more conventional products from Monty's Models or Airfix/Dapol. The poses, for obvious reasons, appear to be more natural. The heads are generally smaller but more realistic. Clothing, particularly drape and folds, looks much better. There are a myriad of little rods that support the product and they have to be cut away very very carefully........modern flash I suppose. The definition (of a tie for example) is less crisp than a top quality white metal model. I will mostly standardize on them for the future......they also do a nice line in loco head and tail lights (usual disclaimer) Here ae four of my favourites: Before railways I used to paint 7mm Napoleonic soldiers. Facial features... eyes and lips etc had to be painted. In 4mm I dont bother......I feel that with my skill level a flawed attempt is worse, in this case, than no attempt. I prefer to let the shadows of the model suggest the features A 7mm technique I was recently reminded of on Little Muddle (what an inspirational layout), is the application of a number of heavily diluted black washes to the finished model Not the best example but the figure on the right hasn't had this treatment yet. Whereas now he has: ........of course it helps that he is a footplate crew but the technique will enhance any model figure. So at long last the Dean has a full crew There is, of course, an issue with inanimate figures on moving objects. Its hardly likely that Gareth Edwards could spend an entire circuit of Granby with his hands in his pockets. However Dean 2409 will spend most of its time in the public view shunting in Cynwyd yard, where the pose is hopefully more acceptable Have you any idea how long I spent painting Driver Hughes tie? Never to be seen again! I guess its debatable how long one should spend painting the unseen side of a figure? I am quite pragmatic about buildings......the rear of the brewery will never ever be seen......fortunately http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.........but somehow, to me, a figure isn't complete unless its properly painted Here is a nice shot of the Oxford's backhead treatment I will finish with a bit about the photographs Phil-C of Pen Bryn (another inspirational layout) is a brilliant photographer and he has been very patiently coaching me over the years. I have a very rudimentary knowledge of photography and some of my most recent photos have been less than stellar..........As a result of hints from Phil I think this latest batch are a lot sharper. (apart from the fossilised labourer bottom left) I always shoot remotely on a tripod with aperture priority at the smallest aperture f22. However I had previously set the ISO at auto. I guess the penny should have dropped when the shutter was so fast with such a small aperture.! For this session I changed the ISO to 100.......the shutter now takes forever but the results are crisper with good depth of field........thank you Phil I know I still need to add smoke though http://yourmodelrailway.net/images/emoticons/icon_sad.gif Regards from Vancouver where I spent part of yesterday morning shoveling snow. Edited September 28, 2022 by john dew 10 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted February 15, 2018 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 15, 2018 I think you may have a drink problem John. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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