Starting out in loco kit building

[Chris Chewter]

There's one class of locomotive that I've always wanted to add to my collection, and thats a GWR 72xx. However, after always entering Bachmann and Hornby wishlists back as far as I can remember, its never been put into production. I guess I'm in the minority here. However kits are available, with a very nice looking one being made by PDK models. There is just one thing that puts me off going down that route.... soldering brass!

 

My soldering skills are good enough for electrical work, but will that suffice for putting a set of frames together? Also seeing a brass etch fills me with dread!

 

So really my question is, how easy is it to deal with making brass frames, is a 72xx too big for a beginner, and should I make something smaller first such as wagon kits or a starter loco kit?

[Kris]

I'd build up a couple of wagons first, a simple open then a more complex model before considering a loco if lots of etched brass fills you with dread, it will help to build up confidence and are a lot cheaper to bin if it all goes wrong.

[Kenton]

Buy a cheap wagon kit first. It doesn't really matter if you want the finished model that is not the point of it. You are using it as a "no risk" test piece. Build it carefully and slowly using it to learn the very different skills of brass kit building.

 

It will NOT help you to build a true chassis - especially a chassis anything like the very difficult 2-8-2 of the 72xx

It will not teach you anything about the complexity of balancing a 2-8-2 so that it doesn't trip over every point on a layout.

It will teach you much about mixed media kits - I believe the PDK has resin components (spit spit OK personal dislike)

 

BUT importantly it will allow you to learn how to make folds, right-angle joins, add fiddly small bits (the brake gear) and most importantly learn why soldering brass is not quite like soldering a wire - even if it has the same tools and principles.

 

I must add that a 2-8-2 is about the last chassis I would build and would suggest you at least build a 0-6-0 AND a 2-4-0 or 2-6-0 first.

 

Building a loco is 50% brass work - the body, and 50% engineering - the chassis. You may make a wonderful job of the body but if you do not learn the engineering then it will never run or run badly.

 

..and if you haven't taken the hint - a 2-8-2 really is not for a beginner.

 

but have to add on inspection that pdk kit looks stunning and I can see why you are tempted.

 

There are othe kits and Darren (Steam on shed) did a white metal one http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=89&t=18794 (old RMWeb)

 

and somewhere deep inside Jazz's workbench there is a 7mm build http://www.rmweb.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=3130&start=0 (again old RMWeb)

[jwealleans]

If you're a GWR modeller there may not be any in the range which suit, but the Craftsman range of loco kits are relatively cheap and can make up into a nice result. If at the end of the day it's no use to you then you can sell it.

 

Start with the beginners van kits which Lochgorm (?) do - the ones which used to be done by 5522. There's a thread somewhere on here about them. Work up from there. I've only done one eight coupled chassis but if you can beg, borrow or afford one of the jigs which are now available you're already a bit ahead of the game. Or if you're really struggling someone like West Coast, or even PDK themselves, will probably build the chassis for you.

 

There are also plenty of very good builders on here whose work you can study and who you can ask for advice of you do hit problems. Invariably someone else has hit the same issues even if there isn't already a thread on it.

[Mallard60022]

There's one class of locomotive that I've always wanted to add to my collection, and thats a GWR 72xx. However, after always entering Bachmann and Hornby wishlists back as far as I can remember, its never been put into production. I guess I'm in the minority here. However kits are available, with a very nice looking one being made by PDK models. There is just one thing that puts me off going down that route.... soldering brass!

 

My soldering skills are good enough for electrical work, but will that suffice for putting a set of frames together? Also seeing a brass etch fills me with dread!

 

So really my question is, how easy is it to deal with making brass frames, is a 72xx too big for a beginner, and should I make something smaller first such as wagon kits or a starter loco kit?

 

Concur with all said so far. However, if you live in this country or near by (land of oxen and fords?) book on the Hobby Holidays kit building course for early February. Tony Wright is the mentor and you will have a sweet running chassis and part built body before the weekend is done. You should also enjoy the banter, cakes and ambiance. (Ambiance, not ambulance )

Sincerely 36E

[Barry Ten]

The coupled wheelbase of a 72xx is longer than most, requiring fairly generous curves - another reason why it´s not necessarily the best loco to cut your teeth on.

 

My first kitbuild was an 0-6-0, I later built a couple of 4-6-0s and a 4-4-0. I would feel OK about tackling a 2-8-2 now but would not have jumped in with that, since each

of the simpler types prevented problems of their own.

[Lady_Ava_Hay]

Although I would agree with all that has been said so far, the biggest nightmare of building loco kits tends to be the valve gear. If this72XX has the usual GWR slide bar and no outside valve gear that makes it easier.

 

There are ways of building chassis that give good results involving extended axles, graph paper and glass sheets.

 

Don't hesitate to invest in a good motor and a really great gear train.

 

The beauty of working in metal is the strength of the assembled pieces and the accuracy of the fitting of ancilliaries.

 

Much hot air has been expended on the black art of soldering but with good solder and flux it does help and having a good iron is a good investment as well.

 

BUT

 

I don't think that a 2-8-0 with tender is really a good starter kit but if you are a member of a club, you will get help. If you start with the tender that is as good as a wagon really. I think it really depends on how much actual hands on help you can get. That is something that even RMWeb can't provide but you won't learn anything unless you have a go. I always feel that good tools and good materials are a great help.

 

Always remember that kit building is as old as the hobby itself and that we all started somewhere where you are now and acquired skills sometimes by making mistakes. If it were me I would go for an 0-6-0 tender loco.......no valve gear and a tender to start.

[multiprinter]

I have to admit that I chose the 72xx as my first scratch built effort many,many years ago. With patience it turned out as quite a good model with one slight drawback: it ran smoothly enough on straight track but refused point blank to go round anything under 6ft radius curves,which was rather a problem since I was using Peco 3ft radius points! It had to remain on shed for a while but I did later modify it with a decent amount of sideplay and when I changed period sold it for a tidy sum.

[Theakerr]

Read a good book that is practically orientated. For example you will need a set of axles to line up your wheel bushings. Get a sheet of glass because it is about as flat as you will get. Get a good small square. Learn how to tin and how to use flux. Biggest mistake I made was thinking that todays flux cored solder was like yesterdays flux cored solder. Then go for it! You will probably have to undo some of the things you did but you learn so much that way.

[JZ]

I started with wagons, it gives you a realy good grounding into working with brass. My first was a Falcon beer tank wagon, not the greatest of kits. Next up was an ABS lowmac. This was a really nice kit to build and a good one for learning hor to solder long components. A couple of Comet chassis followed and this year took the plunge with my first full loco kit, a DJH S15.

One thing you will learn with loco building. As soon as you get started on your dream loco, Hornby or Bachmann announce an RTR one . That's why I have never bought a 42XX kit.

It is possible that with the Hornby loco drive 28XX available, someone may bring out a bodykit for the 42XX/72XX.

[Metropolitan]

_{I would agree. you might as well just have a go at the loco rather than fiddling with some turgid wagon which will probaly bore you to death and put you off for life! It's really no harder anyway. Invest in Iain Rice's book Loco Chassis Building. It's a bit out of date but a very good read whether you intend to do it or not.}

 

 

_{Make life easy for yourself. In addition to the advice above re tha chassis:}

 

_{1)Use a 50w Iron.}

 

_{2)Use 145degree solder and Powerflow flux. (Cue gripes and moans.)}

 

_{3)Clean up chassis and excess solder with coarse Sandpaper and not a file as you complete each join.}

 

_{4)If EM/OO fork out for a Markits self quartering wheelset and axle nut tool. No contest or competition here.}

 

_{5)Open out the connecting rod holes to give plenty of slop on the crankpin in advance of assembly.}

 

_{6)Fix whitemetal detailing parts with superglue not solder.}

 

_{7)Have fun!}

 

 

 

 

[Sailor Charon]

Oh crumbs. It's been a while since I built a loco. It was in O, and it was a really nice 2-6-4T. Now, whether it was a BR Standard 4MT, or whether it was a Stanier or Fairburn, I can't remember. I do know that it was... a learning experience, but that it went together quite well. I managed to put together a loco with Walscharts valve gear... and have it work. I'd built other locos before. In OO, in white metal, and in brass. But this was the first time I'd tried (I think) to put something so awkward together.

At least with GWR engines, the valve gear is relatively simple. And with steam locos that's a great help.

As for soldering, ironically, while I was reasonably confident about soldering the body (and indeed the chassis) together, I didn't feel secure in doing the electrical side till very recently. [Ah, the joys of doing Metalwork at school. I'm like Paul Merton in that respect. Only with a grade 2.]

Would I start with a 2-8-2T? Well, probably not. Pauses. Wonders why not. Possibly because the chassis will be longer, and harder to keep square? [This is important.] Other than length, it's no worse than a six coupled loco. And a big six coupled loco would be worse. In truth, I suspect the best thing to do is to build what you want to run on your layout. But if you're really worried, then get someone else to build the chassis, as that's the bit that can really throw a spanner in the works. And above all, remember that your next one will be better. [Hopefully not because you've learnt how not to do things. ]

It can be frustrating at times. You'll probably learn (invent) a couple of new swear words. You will almost certainly know pain. But it's worth it when you get to the end and see what you've made running along the track.

Good luck.

[craigwelsh]

I really wouldn't start with one of the longest 4-coupled wheelbase locos around, you also have a radial truck to deal with behind it.

 

I would say something like a 64xx/16xx would be ideal first but no one really makes a decent modern kit of those, possibly upgrade a 14xx with a Comet/High Level chassis first to get some practice in?

 

The PDK 72xx is missing the bunker cutout too I believe which I personally think spoils the distinctive look of the loco. I wouldn't expect anyone to try a bodykit on a 28xx chassis as its driven on a different axle as a big difference.

[JZ]

I wouldn't expect anyone to try a bodykit on a 28xx chassis as its driven on a different axle as a big difference.

See what happens when I put my brain into gear before the engines started :blush:

[Jol Wilkinson]

_{I would agree. you might as well just have a go at the loco rather than fiddling with some turgid wagon which will probaly bore you to death and put you off for life! It's really no harder anyway. Invest in Iain Rice's book Loco Chassis Building. It's a bit out of date but a very good read whether you intend to do it or not.}

 

 

_{Make life easy for yourself. In addition to the advice above re tha chassis:}

 

_{1)Use a 50w Iron.}

 

_{2)Use 145degree solder and Powerflow flux. (Cue gripes and moans.)}

 

_{3)Clean up chassis and excess solder with coarse Sandpaper and not a file as you complete each join.}

 

_{4)If EM/OO fork out for a Markits self quartering wheelset and axle nut tool. No contest or competition here.}

 

_{5)Open out the connecting rod holes to give plenty of slop on the crankpin in advance of assembly.}

 

_{6)Fix whitemetal detailing parts with superglue not solder.}

 

_{7)Have fun!}

 

 

 

 

 

1 - Yes

 

2 - Yes and no. Powerflow is horrible stuff. Use a liquid flux (like the phosphoric acid based flux Metropolitan John was so in favour of at Scaleforum).

 

3 - Good grief, coarse sandpaper? Probably as a result of using Powerflow and getting solder where you shouldn't.

 

4 - Markits are just one option. Plastic centred wheels (Alan Gibson, Ultrascale, etc.) are better and no more difficult to fit correctly with a GW Wheel Press.

 

5 - Aaahg! Not required for a correctly built chassis with accurately fitted wheels.

 

6 - Epoxy glue or Carrs 100 degree solder are other options.

 

7 - agree entirely.

 

Read the Iain Rice book, it's still got the best advice on the subject.

[Metropolitan]

1 - Yes

 

2 - Yes and no. Powerflow is horrible stuff. Use a liquid flux (like the phosphoric acid based flux Metropolitan John was so in favour of at Scaleforum).

 

3 - Good grief, coarse sandpaper? Probably as a result of using Powerflow and getting solder where you shouldn't.

 

4 - Markits are just one option. Plastic centred wheels (Alan Gibson, Ultrascale, etc.) are better and no more difficult to fit correctly with a GW Wheel Press.

 

5 - Aaahg! Not required for a correctly built chassis with accurately fitted wheels.

 

6 - Epoxy glue or Carrs 100 degree solder are other options.

 

7 - agree entirely.

 

Read the Iain Rice book, it's still got the best advice on the subject.

 

 

2 - Liquid flux is not for a beginner. Powerflow is powerful and foolproof and stays where you put it. Just clean it off after each session with Fairy Liquid.

 

3- Yep. Coarse sandpaper is the best way to clean up solder on brass.

 

4- Markits wheels are all metal and self quartering and are available live or insulated, The stainless steel axles and superb crankpins are without compare. There ain't no contest for a beginner (or expert) compared to Gibson or (overpriced) Ultrascale plastic efforts which, IMHO, are grim indeed and a nightmare to quarter and guage.

 

5- Open up those con rod holes! Believe me! Save yourself the grief of a binding chassis, There's no reason not to.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Jol Wilkinson]

2 - Liquid flux is not for a beginner. Powerflow is powerful and foolproof and stays where you put it. Just clean it off after each session with Fairy Liquid.

 

3- Yep. Coarse sandpaper is the best way to clean up solder on brass.

 

4- Markits wheels are all metal and self quartering and are available live or insulated, The stainless steel axles and superb crankpins are without compare. There ain't no contest for a beginner (or expert) compared to Gibson or (overpriced) Ultrascale plastic efforts which, IMHO, are grim indeed and a nightmare to quarter and guage.

 

5- Open up those con rod holes! Believe me! Save yourself the grief of a binding chassis, There's no reason not to.

 

 

2 - Liquid flux acts where you put it too. Just don't splash it about.

 

3 - A coarse abrasive will scratch the surface of the work and then require further work with a finer grade to clean that up.

 

4 - Your opinion, John. Not shared by most modellers that I know.

 

5 - A poor and not always sucessful fix for badly built chassis with misaligned bearing/coupling rod centres. Certainly not god engineering practise.

[Kenton]

I'm with LNWRmodeller on most points though course (as in P600 wet-n-dry paper) is handy for those really messed up bits - though probably on white metal rather than brass (which is what I think we were discussing)

 

I don't like Powerflux it leaves too much residue for my liking - but it does the job I suppose - I still only use liquid flux

5- Open up those con rod holes! Believe me! Save yourself the grief of a binding chassis, There's no reason not to.

But that one really irks - visions of a rattling, wobbly, and pre-worn-out chassis

[micklner]

2 - Liquid flux is not for a beginner. Powerflow is powerful and foolproof and stays where you put it. Just clean it off after each session with Fairy Liquid.

 

3- Yep. Coarse sandpaper is the best way to clean up solder on brass.

e.

 

5- Open up those con rod holes! Believe me! Save yourself the grief of a binding chassis, There's no reason not to.

 

 

 

 

 

2 Liquid Flux is easy to use and even easier to clean up

 

3 Utter nonsense no control of what you are cleaning up = detail removed = dont use so much solder in the first place, practice on scrap parts first = an expensive bodge job , as the end result

 

5 Beyond belief = all you will get is a bag of spanners and look as good too as a bag off and run as well too

 

 

[bertiedog]

Please, never open up coupling rods holes to get things running, if they match correctly, then any binds are simple miss-alignment, not curable just by adding play to the chassis by opening the crankpins holes.. If a bind is there, then go back to the basic squareness of the chassis, and check it is straight and true, easy to correct on most etched chassis. Assemble with blank axles in place, make some that take the rods to align things, it may need a lathe to make , but friends might have one, or get a machinist to make a set.

 

The opening may ease it, but the existing problem is still there, and may give faint but audible "wah Wah" effects to gear noise, and different levels of grind noise going forwards and backwards, and will wear rapidly.

 

Ultrascale and Gibson's do not need wheel presses, they simply push on, and can be quartered in seconds, using the rods to act as jigs. The problems arise from a first builder, he has not done it before, and it is far easier than people realise. Anybody with a few simple hand tools can assemble wheels, even simpler with Markits if you really cannot do Gibson.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

X should equal X, and Y should equal Y, if tit does not, then re-do the frame alinement before proceeding to solder up finally..

 

Lightly pre-tack the parts with solder dabs before the fitting of the rods.

 

Use 1/8th steel blanks, with ends at the diameter of the crankpins, fitted into each axle and slip the rods on, they may be split pair makes no difference, and then solder the frame solid, solder the bearings into place, or adjust sprung hornways till the whole thing aligns, and then the wheels will fit without any hassle whatsoever.

 

Fit the wheels, quarter one set, then fit next pair with the rods as guide, then the final set, at which point it should roll freely. The holes in the rods may be open by thousandths of an inch to ease if you are certain all else is accurate, more a matter of de-burring the hole, and smoothing the hole bores,............ never open out to cure a bind at this stage.

 

Same methods apply to wheels that drop into slot bearings and are pre-mounted, like Japanese brass locos, or Ultrascale or Gibson that are pressed on in a press tool outside the frame. Presses can be used to press home in the frame as well.

 

If a press is used it means fitting and a re-test at each stage of assembly, you can't just tweak the quartering so easily. Markits should give quartering automatically, but check with the rods anyway.

 

A new chassis should roll without any bind whatsoever, the driving gear will usually be in place on one axle in this process, and then the motor and top part of gearbox is added and the chassis tested under power then and there.

 

Stephen.

[bertiedog]

Basics.......... if really the first mechanism you have assembled, a flat true surface to work on, glass is acceptable or a good flat marble chopping block! Steel rule, the axle blanks, and a plain caliper or vernier caliper to measure things.......and thats about it.

 

Work in a logical sequence, and cure faults as they occur, test each stage of assembly, it pays, it will all fall into place and you will get a de-luxe chassis, silky smooth first time!. Mistakes are usually trusting etchings as accurate, check with calipers and the rule, .....not de-burring the holes in etchings with a reamer (taper or straight), ......Check carefully that the chassis holes align exactly with the holes in the rods, they must be the same, .+/- nothing.

 

Unfortunately the etching process can miss align a fraction, so check, ream and check again, never trust the basic part, test and measure with a critical eye.

 

Never assume anything is accurate till you have measured it, a basic rule for any engineering. the test does not have to be sophisticated, a steel rule will reveal an awful lot., and use a magnifying glass to examine holes etc. you will be horrified to see the burrs etc!!

 

Chassis are easy ...if you have done it dozens of times, but with help the first can be perfect as well, just steer clear of compromises, they add up and you have a limping waddling coffee grinder on your hands, or a K's kit as they were known...Ohh thats being too cruel to k's!!

 

Stephen.

[John_Hughes]

It's only fair to point out that there are many things other than chassis / rod centres not matching that can cause binding, including at the most obvious inaccurately located crank-pins and wheels out of true (some plastic-centred wheels have a reputation for this!); and a certain amount of (slight) slop is absolutely required on a sprung / compensated chassis, for reasons that Pythagoras' theorum will explain! Worm-gears held on to the axle by grub-screws rather than a press-fit are also a common cause of uneven running.

 

As others have said, work carefully, make sure that each stage is perfect, and don't be afraid to go back and do it again as often as necessary. Chassis work isn't difficult once you get used to it, but it does require care and accuracy, and you'll never be happy with a model that doesn't run well.

[Kenton]

... and we mustn't forget there are more holes to align in a 2-8-2 than a straightforward 0-4-0 the challenge to get it right first time is many times greater.

[Coombe Barton]

Regarding cleaning up solder. I agreee that coarse sandpaper is bodgineering at its most highly destructive. If you do have excess solder (and who doesn't?) then using a scraper can remove most of it and you have extra control. So you don't have a scraper? Try the end of a flat swiss file (or warding file) and scrape layers of solder off. They're hard enough steel - and solder's soft enough to succumb easily. You then only attack the solder not the metal. But please make sure you are supporting the underside of the metal you're scraping otherwise you'll get distortion to add to your problems. If it's too small an area for normal support try cannibalising wooden clothes pegs and holding them in a vice so that you can bear on to the metal you're scraping - a bit like a lash up for a jeweller's bench peg.

 

And yes, I've ruined a kit by taking a more rubst approach not thinking through what I was doing,