M G Sharp

[Jonboy]

I am not getting into the ins and outs of the MGS arguments; but what I will say is that my employers main inbox gets in the region of 1000 spam emails per day. Three quarters of these are dealt with by an off the shelf spam filter set to a medium level. The others are reviewed in under five minutes per day with the email client preinstalled on almost every windows PC.

 

We simply sort them in order by subject and then click on the first one, hold down shift and press the down key until we reach one that isnt obvious spam. we then drag the highlighted list into the spam filter where it adds the address to its blacklist and moves on. Repeat until end of inbox is reached. Then reverse process on spam folder to ensure nothing genuine has been spammed.

 

This short process then leaves us with a list of geniune enquires to follow up.

[Butler Henderson]

Have you considered using PayPal ? Would this alleviate this problem ? You would need to raise partial or total request for payment of course using email.

 

Some shops do use paypal but in my experience its worse than using your credit card as the shop takes the whole amount regardless of whether it is in stock ie I ordered a number of items from one model shop, the principal item being a Heljan 33/1 the version of which was seemingly sold out elsewhere. Eventually discoveredf the order had not been despatched because they were waiting a delivery of the Bachmann buffers I had included in the order. Needless to say I got them to cancel the buffers , the order despatched and a refund of the excess made.

 

Model Junction seem to carry very similar ranges to MGS and their web site in my experience is always accurate as to stocks (they appear to only list what is in stock) to the extent that the items reviewed in the latest Model Rail are not listed (presuambly sold out). MJ, Hattons and Gaugemaster are the only web sites that I have any confidence in as being correct as to stock (no experience of Trains4U new site)and I usually email anyone else to check if stuff is in stock. Obviously if they cannot be bothered to read it and/or reply then that is a sale lost.

[Guest dilbert]

Some shops do use paypal but in my experience its worse than using your credit card as the shop takes the whole amount regardless of whether it is in stock ie I ordered a number of items from one model shop, the principal item being a Heljan 33/1 the version of which was seemingly sold out elsewhere.

 

This will depend on the commercial construct of the retail website.

 

I order items that are of interest (just like everyone else) - whether these items are in stock or not isn't too much of a problem. Sometimes the upfront price of item may not even be known at the time of taking orders.

 

I think that Rails of Sheffield (who seem to get regularly duffed on this forum) have the right approach - I can (pre-)order using a PayPal address and nothing will get billed until RoS submit a request for a PayPal payment - when this happens they also let you know which items are to be sent. Much better than CC details laying around especially when certain items when released exceed the expiry date on the plastic card number that was originally used or other problems arise.

 

I have no commercial links etc... with RoS other than as a customer - their ordering approach suits me fine and I have no complaints about their service... dilbert

[nigcuberail]

 

 

I will make a further post on this thread later tonight or over the weekend but I have to now go........

 

 

 

 

I decided NOT to use this retailer some years ago due to his attitude and so I was curious to see the contents of this thread.

 

The failure of MG Sharp to provide the promised follow up rather says it all as far as I am concerned!

[Kenton]

The failure of MG Sharp to provide the promised follow up rather says it all as far as I am concerned!

 

No, I think he has just been put off by the attack dogs since he made that first post.

 

I'm sure we would not welcome any other new member to this forum in such an unwelcoming and aggressive manner. In fact, if any other new member had received such an attack after a first post, I would have expected some moderation to take place.

 

Normally, we give a wide allowance to members who are new to this forum's etiquette and it is pretty clear to me that his post was an attempt to both explain the position and get some interaction going to resolve the (few) customers who have complaints and for some reason cannot be bothered to pick up the phone.

 

I'm sure some may have wished for some grovelling and a more apologetic statement, but then I wouldn't be surprised if some might prefer MGSharp to stop trading altogether.

 

Perhaps, valuable time is being spent trying to trawl through junked email to find the missing communication, or simply responding to other contented customers' orders, or perhaps improving the website for everyone. All far more important than making a follow-up post that will probably just receive the same response.

[shortliner]

I haven't used this company since shortly after Bill Eaglesham died, as I was distincty un-impressed with the way that attitude to the customer changed afterward, becoming very "take it or leave it" - a similar attitude to another model shop who were in Ross-on-Wye. There are still "Helpful" modelshops - and those are the ones that get recommended, and also get my custom. As was stated in the previous post but one - the failure to fullfill the promise to return and comment is similar to the attitude generated by the whole experience. I would have thought that the previous poster would have expected that a heavily critical review by multiple posters, would have generated thoughts of " we must be doing something wrong", or "we are not doing it right", or even "I'll try to do better if my customers are that un-impressed!" The attitude that " customers owe me a living" is the one that makes those self-same customers vote with their feet, and in the current state of the retail sectors economy is one that demands an urgent change.

[dave_long]

I think the lack of an apology has also been an issue for some, we can all understand the email issue could have played a major part in the company's problems, the whys and the wherefores I dont really care about but an apology would have been a very good way to start not just join a forum tell everyone they should have read the small print ( in a manner that to me sounded like 'your all stupid because you couldn't read or use the phone (this is my opinion)) is frankly not a good way of winning customers back. I know they will more than survive without orders from these members but its a bad way of going about your business.

[RedgateModels]

Must say, it's not tempting me to drop in as I pass on the way to Marcway and a "tour" of all three would make the petrol work for it's living .......

[Andy Y]

No, I think he has just been put off by the attack dogs since he made that first post.

 

I'm sure we would not welcome any other new member to this forum in such an unwelcoming and aggressive manner. In fact, if any other new member had received such an attack after a first post, I would have expected some moderation to take place.

 

Normally, we give a wide allowance to members who are new to this forum's etiquette and it is pretty clear to me that his post was an attempt to both explain the position and get some interaction going to resolve the (few) customers who have complaints and for some reason cannot be bothered to pick up the phone.

 

Obviously those comments relate to my stance but I will not stand back and accept a message of that tone that served to put their view across (at the expense of members who have had a problem with them) and neglect to resolve customer issues or apologise for the service. Anyone with a modicum of PR capabilities would be doing just that. The rest was just fluff and an attempt to bluster past the real issues.

 

I'm sorry; didn't see much evidence of interaction to resolve anything at all, just finger pointing back at the consumer.

[Kenton]

I think the lack of an apology has also been an issue for some, we can all understand the email issue could have played a major part in the company's problems, the whys and the wherefores I don't really care about but an apology would have been a very good way to start not just join a forum tell everyone they should have read the small print ( in a manner that to me sounded like 'your all stupid because you couldn't read or use the phone (this is my opinion)) is frankly not a good way of winning customers back. I know they will more than survive without orders from these members but its a bad way of going about your business.

I do agree, that something a little more apologetic and along the lines of "we are looking to resolve any issues - please PM me with specific details and I will deal with each one" might have been much better.

 

But the point I was trying to make was that for the first post on a forum, where the poster is evidently under pressure to post and also is possibly is not used to posting on forums, should not have been received in such an unfriendly manner. We would not treat others that way. Also, I think all suppliers to our hobby need to be treated fairly and if they are attempting to participate in the forum, for mutual benefit, they should be encouraged.

 

I mentioned PMs because that is now a new potential way open to MGSharp in resolving the issues with individual RMWeb members - assuming MGSharp has grasped the awareness of how to use PMs. But I do think there are separate issues to resolve. The important ones being of missing/incomplete orders and lost email communications. The much less important one being what others think on how the website should perform, which are IMO much along the lines of "it would be nice if" and really should be given in a more constructive format.

[multiprinter]

But the point I was trying to make was that for the first post on a forum, where the poster is evidently under pressure to post and also is possibly is not used to posting on forums, should not have been received in such an unfriendly manner. We would not treat others that way.

 

I cannot agree with you on this 'Kenton' . The poster is supposedly a businessman, of several years experience, and therefore should be able to communicate professionally using any medium. We do not, I think, need to make allowances in this case.

[Kenton]

I cannot agree with you on this 'Kenton' . The poster is supposedly a businessman, of several years experience, and therefore should be able to communicate professionally using any medium. We do not, I think, need to make allowances in this case.

In a previous job I was a small business tax consultant. In theory I could have made the assumption, just like HMRC, that every businessman "of several years experience" should know all about the tax regimen that affects their business. It was clearly not the case.

 

The type of communication methods available to business is an ever changing world and has moved considerably in the past few years. Some of us are fortunate? enough to be comfortable interacting in forums, twitter, the web, email some are not. Some see these as tools to develop their business, some have been advised to dabble (a web presence, an online shop) but find it a bit overwhelming and fast moving, some see the likes of forums as a distraction and perhaps the peculiar nature of twitter and facebook as a total waste of time.

 

I just feel that the welcome was so bad we have possibly driven away the opportunity to resolve the issues that really matter and actually get something positive and constructive out of this thread.

[Andy Y]

I just feel that the welcome was so bad we have possibly driven away the opportunity to resolve the issues that really matter and actually get something positive and constructive out of this thread.

 

I don't think there was particularly any merit in being all touchy-feely at all and show the benefit of the doubt to someone who says "I am sorry but if you don't READ IT, that's not our fault." That just displays arrogance and disdain for the customer and in my view they deserve to be pulled up on it. I hardly think that someone who made comments such as the above would be overly-sensitive and frightened to show up.

If anything the whole topic and the response has served to highlight to customers in the whole market what good and bad practices look like. As Shortliner said the pragmatic sort would take some lessons away from this but I don't think the response from MG Sharp gave any indication whatsoever that anything of the like was ever likely to happen.

There's enough evidence to say several people have been let down; MG Sharp don't view it as their problem and the wider readership can make their own choices over whether there are other retailers who care more.

 

 

[MGSharp]

I have not responded over the weekend due to being busy getting the 100's of Kadee backorders shipped to customer... No doubt some of who have been bashing us on here...

 

Also I have set up this account to send me emails when replies were posted but they also don't seem to have been getting through, so sorry if it seems I have been ignoring this thread.

 

 

It's seem that you would all like me to apologise for all our short comings, and on reflection I should have started my 1st post with that and it may be taken that that post was written with an aggressive tone, well it wasn't, again sorry if it comes across like that - it the written word and putting feelings into posts like this is difficult at times, especially when you only type with two fingers ...

 

I am very sorry that some people have not been able to get in touch with us by email, but we do offer other forms of communication - it's not like we are only on the net, we have a full time shop which is open on normal business hours with a full phone service.

 

There are a number of issues on this thread and I will try and address some of them;

 

Taking money for items we don't have in stock... I have been in touch with the Trading Standards Office in Sheffield over this matter (Long before this thread was started) and as far as they are concerned our web site fully complies with the Distant Selling Act and all that that entails. Please bear in mind we buy stock from all over the globe, and we can not keep every single item in stock all of the time and we have to build up an order that will allow for economical shipping, clearance charges etc. We advised TSO that this happens and that when we don't have an item in stock our customers are sent an email saying that the items have been placed on back order (Same happens when we ship out part or complete orders) with a copy of the back order or and invoice. They are happy that that complies with the DSA and our T&C allow for the fact that deliveries CAN take longer than the 30 days stated in the DSA. If a customer is not happy with items being put on back order all he has to do is tell us and we will happily refund the money... at no point have we refused this nor would we...

 

With regard to the customer who ordered a Walthers building kit that he knew was discontinued and was CLEARLY listed as out of stock on our web site - but could be back ordered (as these kits do come back from Walthers/Heljan on a regular basis)... We assume that because he is aware we don't have it in stock that he is happy to wait for it to arrive at a later date.... Sorry but I haven't mastered the art of mind reading yet!! I Do Keep Trying....

 

PCI/DSS Regulations.... What a minefield this is... As for the posting about the regulations - That maybe the case with Saga, but we use RBS Worldpay and we conform to their operating methods and that is that the money is charged at the time of placing the order... As I have already stated we have no choice what so ever on this and we just have to comply with the RBS Worldpay rules.

 

I will again respond to other matters later, but I have to go and pick up my Daughter, and if any one would like to send me a PM I will get back to you as soon as I can.

 

I would like to say a big Thank You to Kenton for his level headed replies to some of the issues raised on here. But TBH I have a feeling that no matter what we do it would never be enough for some people, customers do expect us to run like a Dixons or Argos who have multi million £ turnovers and profits to match, when at the end of the day we are in a cottage type industry that doesn't have the margins to pay me a proper wage, never mind employ a full time team of IT specialists and staff who can reply or sort through the 1000's of emails we get every week.

 

Apologies again...

 

Regards

 

Ken Eaglesham

[Wummyock]

Well at some point in the near future Ken I will be needing several Kadee's so will use your business for them.Never used you before so will see how it goes.I think this thread could've gone better than it has but hey ho thats life!Hopefully if those who have complaints get the problems rectified they will post to say its been sorted.Some people are quick enough to moan but very backwards in handing out praise.

[Andy Y]

Thank you for the further response Ken, the apology to customers that are affected and I am glad it's not being dismissed out of hand.

 

our customers are sent an email saying that the items have been placed on back order (Same happens when we ship out part or complete orders) with a copy of the back order or and invoice. [snip] If a customer is not happy with items being put on back order all he has to do is tell us and we will happily refund the money... at no point have we refused this nor would we...

I would reiterated that if email is to be used a communication channel as acknowledged above and that it is possible that a customer may make a return action via email it is imperative that the email communication channel is properly managed and maintained rather than falling back upon the other communication methods.

 

[EddieB]

 

I would reiterated that if email is to be used a communication channel as acknowledged above and that it is possible that a customer may make a return action via email it is imperative that the email communication channel is properly managed and maintained rather than falling back upon the other communication methods.

 

Would it not be more efficient to use a different e-mail address for contacting customers - not advertised and therefore out of the reach of many spammers - so that responses from customers can be readily identified and dealt with?

[MGSharp]

Well at some point in the near future Ken I will be needing several Kadee's so will use your business for them.Never used you before so will see how it goes.I think this thread could've gone better than it has but hey ho thats life!Hopefully if those who have complaints get the problems rectified they will post to say its been sorted.Some people are quick enough to moan but very backwards in handing out praise.

 

Thanks & we look forward to serving you...

 

I would also say that we do have 1000's of happy customers and many who have dealt with us for years, and they may be the silent many, who don't frequent forums like this...

 

We have been in business for over 50 years and you don't last that long by offering either poor service or by ripping people off.

 

We may have failed with a few people recently but some of these problems have arisen by situations that we can't control...

 

One of them being the PCI-DSS regulations which we hate with a passion, but we don't have the money or the skill to invest in a fully secure server that would allow us to go back to the way we would like to handle web orders. Which is where we hold your card details and only charge for what we have in stock and ship those items accordingly... I always saw these problems coming and that was why I contacted the Trading Standards Office to clarify this and how it would affect the DSA...

[MGSharp]

Would it not be more efficient to use a different e-mail address for contacting customers - not advertised and therefore out of the reach of many spammers - so that responses from customers can be readily identified and dealt with?

 

But how do you get people to respond to that email without posting it on the web site... I am sorry to say BUT most people (and I don't just mean our customers - but in general) just don't read things properly and this leads to further problems. But I will look into it.

[Andy Y]

If you setup a distinct email address for the purpose and email the customer from the new address e.g. deliveries@mgsharp.tld then they can reply to that address; it wouldn't need to be publicised on your web pages.

[MGSharp]

Thank you for the further response Ken, the apology to customers that are affected and I am glad it's not being dismissed out of hand.

 

I would reiterated that if email is to be used a communication channel as acknowledged above and that it is possible that a customer may make a return action via email it is imperative that the email communication channel is properly managed and maintained rather than falling back upon the other communication methods.

 

I would like to point out that at no point do we IGNORE emails but if I can't or don't get them for whatever reason, I can't reply to them...

 

I am not an IT specialist (although I am expected to be) we use standard off the shelf email software and the same when it comes to anti-virus software and we do try our best - but it seams some times that's just not good enough and we are trying to sort this mater out.

 

On another note I do feel that some of your post's are a little harsh, and seen as you are an Admin they could be better thought about before being posted!

[Andy Y]

On another note I do feel that some of your post's are a little harsh, and seen as you are an Admin they could be better thought about before being posted!

 

Oh; they're very clearly thought through before I post them (maybe more so than your initial post which pointed the finger back at customers not reading?). If I see a number of members that have a problem and that I don't think it's being responsibly addressed I will say my piece, not for personal gain but for the advisement of the wider readership.

[Kenton]

If you setup a distinct email address for the purpose and email the customer from the new address e.g. deliveries@mgsharp.tld then they can reply to that address; it wouldn't need to be publicised on your web pages.

Although a very good interim and temporary solution it does not prevent the new email address being farmed from the customer's unwitting use of malware specifically designed to collect this information from address books.

 

Sadly many people are not very security conscious and do not protect their email address books, or even update their security software. It only takes one such customer to be infected with this type of "ET phones home" type of software for that email to become listed and sold on as a spam target.

 

You could very quickly find yourself changing email addresses on a regular basis, which kinda defeats the communication process entirely.

 

At the end of the day there is nothing for it but to wade through the junk mail box and remove anything from unknown senders and strange or missing subject lines, never open anything in html browser (even if you know the sender) - of course that still assumes the mail arrived in the first place.

 

I still think the use of the PM system is the best solution as it effectively pre-filters everything and the sources are restricted to members and therefore traceable.

[MGSharp]

Oh; they're very clearly thought through before I post them (maybe more so than your initial post which pointed the finger back at customers not reading?). If I see a number of members that have a problem and that I don't think it's being responsibly addressed I will say my piece, not for personal gain but for the advisement of the wider readership.

 

Well in some cases that is a true statement, lots of customers don't read things properly, we can only do so much in advising people about our term and conditions of sale - Also bear in mind that a web site is not like walking into a shop where we have to sell said item - it's an Offer To Sell Based Upon OUR TERMS & CONDITIONS, and as long as they meet the DSA & OFT/TSO requirements then I am happy to a certain point that we are trading properly...

 

That besides I have been mulling this matter over all weekend ( and for many months), and I would like to make the following statement's & maybe give an incite into how we have to do business online - It may ramble a bit, as I have been out to the pub for a drink with a couple of friends and this has been our main topic of conversation, but it is a true and honest basis on how we have to trade online these days, you may not like it - but it's how I see them...

 

After reading through this thread a few times, it appears to me the biggest problem seems to be the fact that we are taking peeps money without actually supplying the goods at point of sale, the email situation is a side issue - an important one but still a side issue non the less.... Which I have to agree with does seem to be a scam, and if I was a customer I too would not be a happy bunny. BUT with the placement of the PCI-DSS regulations from the Credit Card companies in an effort to counter online fraud, we have only 2 options one to take all the funds or take none of the funds. Before these regulations came into place we would take your credit card information and charge you for what items we shipped and back order the rest, then charge you for the outstanding items as and when they arrived... (Which is how I would still like to do things).

 

We don't really want to take customers money up front but it's either done this way or we reject your full order, which would also upset people.... No win situation as I see it. This also causes us other problems with cash flows as we like to know that we have a certain amount of sales or money due in when certain shipments arrive... As in all cases we have to pay for imported shipments up front...

 

In the old days your details were stored on a computer that was not connected to the internet so could not be accessed by anyone other than if you were in our office at work, this was also backed up with the appropriate security measures to stop other peeps getting access to this information. Our online orders were sent by 128 bit security installed software by our web site software provider so as far as anyone was concerned it was secure. Then The CC companies said they had to combat online fraud and to do this all online credit card transactions had to be processed by a compliant SSL that could prove it was up to the the standards laid out in the above regulations...

 

At this point our Web Site software people made the decision that even they could not meet the PCI-DSS standards so had to stop providing this service - which we paid a £1000.00 a year - they had 1000's of customers that they gave 1 months notice to that they were closing down their SSL server, so we had to find another provider - hence why we went to RBS worldpay. So if a company that provides 1000's of companies with a service that they charged £1000.00 to each and they could not meet the standards what are we expected to do... They have lost an income worth over £1,000,000 a year...

 

What really pisses me off is that the credit card companies DO NOT cover any of the losses they say they incur over the internet - It all falls on the supplying retailer... I.E. Us!! If your card gets hacked by whatever means and it's used over the internet - you get the funds back, the scammer gets his knocked off goods, and we lose all the money from the sale, and also have to stand the cost of the goods....

 

So we now have to comply with these stupid regulations and this is where I see all our current problems seem to to be coming from... It's now non compliance even if we store credit card information on any computer, store any paper work that has credit card information written on it for longer than a month, but to meet the HMRC accountancy rules we have to keep all paper work relating to sale for up to 7 years... Go Figure...

 

So when all this kicked off back in late 2009 early 2010 (Not 2007 as one member seems to think prior to this we only charged for what we shipped) we contacted the CC Companies and also the OFT/TSO to see how this would affect us and this is when we clarified our T&C's on our web site... Again not how we want to do things BUT we had no option.

 

We came up with our off-line order page, which allow's customer to place an order online without giving his/her credit card info and we would then contact you for payment details (or you can ring us) and then only charge for what we shipped. This option is clearly shown on our web site when you put items into your shopping basket and is a drop down option and is explained on the Right-hand side of the basket where you fill in your name and address details;

 

Order Notes

We now have 2 ordering options;

1. Online:- With "Most Types of Credit or Debit Card" using "WorldPay" which is done on a Pre-Authorisation - Funds Are Deducted at the time of ordering.
2. Offline:- You can order goods and contact us by phone etc, and we will process & charge the order "In Store" As we have done for many years.

Notes On Online Orders;

• You DO NOT have to own a RBS Card... Most types of Debit & Credit Cards are accepted.
• Due to the new PCI-DSS standards that are now in effect - all online credit card payments are now processed online by the "RBS WorldPay" system.
• Please ensure you have correctly selected your shipping location - incorrect destinations will cause shipping delays.

General Order Notes;

• All overseas currency values are "A GUIDE" and should be treated as such.
• All transactions are carried out in GB Pound Sterling.
• Once you have placed your order, confirmation will be sent to you via e-mail complete with Transaction and Order Reference numbers.
• We will send you an email confirming dispatch.
• By placing an order you are agreeing to our current "Terms & Conditions" to review them Click Here.

 

 

I hope this reply answers most issues raised in this thread to a satisfactory standard - If not Please feel free to reply on here or to PM me - I have nothing to hide!!

[Andy Y]

We don't really want to take customers money up front but it's either done this way or we reject your full order, which would also upset people.... No win situation as I see it. This also causes us other problems with cash flows as we like to know that we have a certain amount of sales or money due in when certain shipments arrive... As in all cases we have to pay for imported shipments up front...

 

I've spoken to Worldpay this morning to get their perspective on this and they do not have any mechanism to defer the remaining balance for out of stock items as you say and they pass the responsibility back to the retailer to use shop software that charges for the in-stock items and to trigger an automated email to the customer when the stock levels are amended to show an item is in stock.

 

What really pisses me off is that the credit card companies DO NOT cover any of the losses they say they incur over the internet - It all falls on the supplying retailer... I.E. Us!! If your card gets hacked by whatever means and it's used over the internet - you get the funds back, the scammer gets his knocked off goods, and we lose all the money from the sale, and also have to stand the cost of the goods....

 

That's the way of the financial institutions unfortunately and was a prime motivator behind the chip and pin system and the destruction of the cheque guarantee system to limit their liabilities.