Dapol 'Western'

[The Stationmaster]

I agree with previous comments about the point at which the roof starts to slope/curve downwards and with Nidge's (Rugd) point about the 'eak' at the front of the roof - something is not quite towards the outer ends (possibly a subtle combination of 'somethings'?). Also noticeable is the front/side profile of the front ends - on the CAD image it looks like a straight line down from below the cab window level to the top of the skirt whereas on the real thing the angle changes at the horizontal joint in the plating just above the level of the marker lights and just below the bottom of the headcode windows and on a level with the seam which runs along the bodyside. Some photos show this quite clearly while on others it is not so noticeable - possibly we might even be looking at a subtle difference between Swindon and Crew bodywork as it seem more noticeable on Swindon built locos.

 

And I'm looking forward to you getting it spot on as I shall shortly be placing my order for their 'limited edition' of D1000 with my friends at 'Steam'

[buffalo]

...All of the slope down to the cab's 'peak' occurs forward of this panel...

 

From Nidge's photo, I'm not so sure this is correct. On the extract above I've drawn in an approximate horizontal from further back on the roof and it looks to me like the downward curve starts roughly above the centre verticals of the window frame.

 

Nick

[Rugd1022]

I can see what you're getting at Mike, but if you look again at Dave's second CAD image (the side on shot) you can make out a slight change of angle towards the bottom corner, it is there but it's very subtle. You might have a point too regarding the differences between the Swindon and Crewe machines in this area, but I'll wager it may have as much to do with collision repairs on certain locos, as this particular area was very prone to damage, with a surprising number of them suffering corner swipes when being driven from the wrong end on depots etc. One or two had completely new cabs fitted while others had the lower half of the front end replaced in situ (Adrian Curtis has published several photos of such locos in recent years). Once repaired, any differences in the angles or lack of would show up..... don't forget, all of the Crewe built Thousands would have been repaired at Swindon, not Crewe!

 

(I'll bet there a few members reading these posts thinking to themselves ''blimey, talk about being fussy... what are they all whinging on about?" but with Trix, Lima, Hornby and Heljan all having a go previously, this one has to be as damn near spot on as possible if it's to be a success)

[The Stationmaster]

I can see what you're getting at Mike, but if you look again at Dave's second CAD image (the side on shot) you can make out a slight change of angle towards the bottom corner, it is there but it's very subtle. You might have a point too regarding the differences between the Swindon and Crewe machines in this area, but I'll wager it may have as much to do with collision repairs on certain locos, as this particular area was very prone to damage, with a surprising number of them suffering corner swipes when being driven from the wrong end on depots etc. One or two had completely new cabs fitted while others had the lower half of the front end replaced in situ (Adrian Curtis has published several photos of such locos in recent years). Once repaired, any differences in the angles or lack of would show up..... don't forget, all of the Crewe built Thousands would have been repaired at Swindon, not Crewe!

 

Nidge, Looking at side profile views in the CAD and photos of new locos at Swindon - with very clean paint thus making it more noticeable - the CAD doesn't seem to anything like match the change in angle. Now that would throw the whole front out in a subtle way because the gradual setback of the front end doesn't run at the same angle (in any one place) from the bottom of the main bodywork line above the buffer beam but starts/changes several inches above it along the seam line I described. In a side view of new D1015 (thus in pale livery) iat Swindon the change is very noticeable but it doesn't show so much on even early front three quarter views of most locos although it is more noticeable on D1000 in its pale original livery.

[TonyW590]

A couple of points based on my memories of working on D1013 and D1062 in the 1980s, and sincere apologies if these have been raised before and I have missed them in this thread.

 

On one side of the loco (with B end at the right and A end at the left) is a hinged panel in the bodyside that allows access to the small air compressor's motor. It can be seen here in this photo of D1023 below the cooler group louvres. Like the hinged right-hand bodyside grille, this was a later addition and so does not appear on brand-new locos:

 

Also, there are four lifting lugs on the top of the cooler group. These are basically square section steel radiused at the bottom to follow the roof line and then welded on. The tops are flat and square and contain a approx. 1 inch diameter tapped hole in to which lifting eyes can be screwed to allow the cooler group to be lifted. They can be seen above bodyside grilles 1 and 3 in this view of D1015:

 

Tony Willmore

[DapolDave]

Hi chaps,

Thanks for the input so far. its all totally relevant, and goes to show just how much moving certain things on cad/cam revision can, if you dont spot it, alter other things too.

 

I am of a mind that this has to be the best 'Western' available in any scale, as who knows, apart from the N gauge one we might produce one in 'O' gauge too in years to come and i'd like it to be as accurate as possible.

 

Now, i shall get the cad re-drawn on this feature and try and tweek the 'peak'. I'm trying to get to climb on another sample soon just to make cross reference to another of the class to double check a few things.

 

One small thing you wont have seen is that the windows are modelled on the bodyside so the correct one looks like it will slide behind the other.

 

Anythng else you see, feel free to yell. I know i get paid for product development, but there comes a time where you have to be honest, raise your hand, and ask for others to view and comment, and its really appreciated.

cheers

Guys

[TonyW590]

One small thing you wont have seen is that the windows are modelled on the bodyside so the correct one looks like it will slide behind the other.

Talking of windows ... the centre bodyside window on the B end to the left, A end to the right side is frosted glass to preserve the crew's modesty when using the urinal.

[Rugd1022]

 

Nidge, Looking at side profile views in the CAD and photos of new locos at Swindon - with very clean paint thus making it more noticeable - the CAD doesn't seem to anything like match the change in angle. Now that would throw the whole front out in a subtle way because the gradual setback of the front end doesn't run at the same angle (in any one place) from the bottom of the main bodywork line above the buffer beam but starts/changes several inches above it along the seam line I described. In a side view of new D1015 (thus in pale livery) iat Swindon the change is very noticeable but it doesn't show so much on even early front three quarter views of most locos although it is more noticeable on D1000 in its pale original livery.

 

I can see what you mean Mike, I can still detect a subtle change of angle in the side on CAD image, but nothing on any of the front views (as I think you're alluding too), and having just dug out five random Western books from 'the library' I do agree that it should be more pronounced. The trouble is, looking at large photos and looking back at the smaller CAD images on screen, my brain is tripping over itself trying to sort it out! It does show up more in some liveries than others though, you're right about that.

 

Dapol Dave - thanks again for your continued input. It's interesting to hear that a 7mm version *may* appear one day, and from the CADs you've shown us of the 4mm model you've already got one up on the current JLTRT kit, namely the bodyside windows, which on their tooling has the corner radius noticably wrong. Again, I know I'm knit picking here, but it's very reassuring to know you're doing your level best to get these things right.

 

Good luck and crack on Sir!

[Andy Y]

 

Nidge, Looking at side profile views in the CAD and photos of new locos at Swindon - with very clean paint thus making it more noticeable - the CAD doesn't seem to anything like match the change in angle. Now that would throw the whole front out in a subtle way because the gradual setback of the front end doesn't run at the same angle (in any one place) from the bottom of the main bodywork line above the buffer beam but starts/changes several inches above it along the seam line I described.

 

Looking at one of the snaps taken during scanning I can see the point being made by looking at the edge of the yellow warning panel.

 

 

Full yellow ends disguise the change but it can be seen by the perpendicular bottom of the front on the far corner in this shot.

 

 

The original CAD from scanning looks to recognise this but it could be that the factory flattened the difference out in subsequent CADs.

 

[Rugd1022]

That helps no end Andy, many thanks for posting those two pics. Last time I up at the NRM I tried to take some close up shots of D1023, but with it being stuck in a dark corner of the hall at the time they came out next to useless.

[DapolDave]

Hi chaps,

 

Good point and 1 thats not showing up well on the cad/cam.

 

I have been through the previous cad files and it isnt there either which makes me believe it was left off when the scanning transition to cad/cam took place and it was 'smoothed' out.

 

To help matters a bit i have attached a comparison picture betwen the one posted earlier (thats for that) and the cad/cam, scaled to about the same size.

 

Cheers

Dave

[Rugd1022]

Dave, something esle I've only just noticed on your CADs.... in the head on view and in the one Andy has reposted above, the very bottom edge of the front bufferbeam skirt looks dead straight, whereas on the real thing there's a definite downward 'vee' to it. Being often in shadow, it doesn't always show up in some photographs, but looking through my books again (highly pleasurable, obviously) it is most definitely there. There's a very good full page head on shot in Strathwoods Western book (page 33), showing a battered but much loved D1041 which illustrates this very well. You can also see the air tank below and behind the skirt in this shot.

[DapolDave]

Hi Nidge,

 

yes and ironically this was on an early cad/cam.

glad i'm out there in the next week or so for a 'chat' ;-)

cheers

Dave

[craigwelsh]

The two straights forming the corner seem to have been turned into a shallow arc on that side shot..

 

Hopefully they can do an intersection between what they've ended up with and the scan and sort out the differences..

[Mark]

Hi everyone,

 

Just back from a break and have received the latest Class 52 'Western' images.

 

They are posted here for thoughts as always.

However i do have a request. Anyone that knows me knows i'm not the easiest person to get onto locomotive roofs

And it appears our scanning is in need of a top up regarding the roof panels and lift eyes / walkway.

 

if anyone has any details on this regarding panel widths and close ups of the aformentioned walkways and eyes, then i'd be happy to hear from them, or else it's carting myself off to Tyseley with a big ladder / cherry picker (delete as appropriate )

 

Anyway, here are the latest images and i'm still not 100% happy with the cab front radiuses, and welcome feedback.

 

Note that this cad/cam does have the pipes under the fuel tank added and a very big cavity for a speaker plus enclosure (the largest rectangular one DCC supplies have) for those that wish to convert to sound.

 

cheers

Dave

Hi Dave,

 

The following issues come to my mind in looking at the images. The roof directly over the cab should be the same as the main roof profile until half an inch forward of the panel. It then drops down to the point above the windscreen. The horn shroud seems a little too wide, The roof ventilators are the wrong shape and should be more flat than shown. There is something not quite right about the buffer beam. The gap between the top of the buffer shank and the beading under the nose seems to be too great. It is difficult to see from the images, but the lower part of the nose below the headcode box is vertical.

 

If you need help with the roof, please let me know and you can have a look at the cadds model I have created. I spent a lot of time on the roof of D1010 measuring the profile above the cab and measuring each roof panel. I will post some images for comparison later when I get a chance. In the meantime, there are some images on www.Quality-Diesel-Kits.co.uk (click just to the right of the home button for a gallery of images)

 

The brake pull rods do not run the full length of the bogie as they are part of a linkage mechanism.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[Pugsley]

In the latest pic, above, the side on comparison shots, the leading edge of the skirt. both by the bufferbeam and the lower piece, appear to straight on the model. In Nidge's photo, the part by the bufferbeam appears to be inclined back slightly, and the lower piece seems to gently curve inwards from the split. The whole assembly appears to have a gentle, flattened ( shape.

 

The horn cover bit looks odd as well, but I think that's due to the curve/panel thing already identified.

[Dogmatix]

The CAD images do look very promising. I have an observation and a question about the couplings: as far as I can see, the couplers (which stick out a long way) are fitted to NEM-type pockets, which appear to be moulded into the bogie frames - the 'worst case scenario' for close-coupling. Now, I know that many British modellers don't give two hoots about close coupling, and are quite happy to have large gaps between vehicles, but it would have been nice to have close coupling on this model, especially seeing how much care and attention is going into getting everything as right as possible.

 

Now to my question: for those of us who like have one end with full detail and without the coupler, will there be some sort of plug-in or even glue-in mould to close or cover the coupler gap?

[Downendian]

Re the peaked lower cab skirt that Nidge discussed- heres the only decent photo I have in my western collection front on-

 

D1020 Western Hero, Laira scrapline 25th July 1973.

[Neal Ball]

Looks terrific to me! - Is there a market in 2nd hand Heljan Westerns - I can see mine heading off to the 2nd hand market when this comes out !!

 

Dapol Western with DCC Sound - now there is a prospect!

[frobisher]

The CAD images do look very promising. I have an observation and a question about the couplings: as far as I can see, the couplers (which stick out a long way) are fitted to NEM-type pockets, which appear to be moulded into the bogie frames - the 'worst case scenario' for close-coupling. Now, I know that many British modellers don't give two hoots about close coupling, and are quite happy to have large gaps between vehicles, but it would have been nice to have close coupling on this model, especially seeing how much care and attention is going into getting everything as right as possible.

 

I think you're possibly wrong on the point of attachment there - the coupling slot seems too small to allow anything near trainset curves to be traversed (24" minimum I'd have thought) so I suspect it's on a cam arrangement like th Hornby 50 et al.

[Allegheny1600]

Looks terrific to me! - Is there a market in 2nd hand Heljan Westerns - I can see mine heading off to the 2nd hand market when this comes out !! Dapol Western with DCC Sound - now there is a prospect!

My thoughts exactly Neal!

The only trouble I have is, if I sell my three HJ's and replace them with Dapol versions, how many of my other D-H fleet will look badly out of date?

My two Silverfox 'baby warships' will for sure. And I don't really want to get rid of them!

Confused once more,

John E.

[Dogmatix]

I think you're possibly wrong on the point of attachment there - the coupling slot seems too small to allow anything near trainset curves to be traversed (24" minimum I'd have thought) so I suspect it's on a cam arrangement like the Hornby 50 et al.

 

That would be ideal, and I very much hope that you're right and that is indeed the case.

[Neal Ball]

My thoughts exactly Neal!

The only trouble I have is, if I sell my three HJ's and replace them with Dapol versions, how many of my other D-H fleet will look badly out of date?

My two Silverfox 'baby warships' will for sure. And I don't really want to get rid of them!

Confused once more,

John E.

 

I think its called progress!

[Coach bogie]

Looks terrific to me! - Is there a market in 2nd hand Heljan Westerns -

 

Based on the fact that whenever Hattons/Rails get new stock of Heljan Westerns, they sell out, there will not a problem selling your S/H 52's.

 

Clearly there are many who do not share your enthusiasm for the Dapol version. As I have said perviously, I will want to see one working, and have some indication that it will compare to Bachamnn/Hejan/Hornby running/reliability wise.

 

Looks aren't everything!

 

regards

 

Mike Wiltshre

[The Stationmaster]

I sincerely hope that this is going to be as good as Dapol Dave's efforts are suggesting because I have just received a 'flyer' advising that the Swindon 'Steam' Museum's limited edition of D1000 (in 1961 ex-works desert sand livery) will be £159.99.