Dapol 'Western'

[Coach bogie]

 

I'm not sure why this is necessary for 2nd radius curves? The bogies would still move from side to side freely with a scale gap.

 

Cheers

Simon

Based on previous manufacturer's attempts, there is not enough room for the bogie to swing if the outside brake rods are included. Trix & Lima shortened the skirts to clear, Hornby fitted the skirts to the bogie. Heljan made a good attempt but, with the brake rods inplace, 4ft radius min is the best I can comfortably get. A Peco slip is a big no no.

 

How to overcome this problem was the question I asked when Dapol first announced this and as yet it is still unanswered. I am still curious how Dapol can overcome this issue where all the others have failed.

 

Not long to wait and find out.

 

Mike Wiltshire

Edited November 7, 2011 by Coach bogie

[bluex5]

 

Do any RtR 00 diesel models actually have scale wheels and ride height?

 

Probably not. Just that some of the solutions are easier on the eye than others.

[Guest oldlugger]

Based on previous manufacturer's attempts, there is not enough room for the bogie to swing if the outside brake rods are included. Trix & Lima shortened the skirts to clear, Hornby fitted the skirts to the bogie. Heljan made a good attempt but, with the brake rods inplace, 4ft radius min is the best I can comfortably get. A Peco slip is a big no no.

 

How to overcome this problem was the question I asked when Dapol first announced this and as yet it is still unanswered. I am still curious how Dapol can overcome this issue where all the others have failed.

 

Not long to wait and find out.

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Hello Mike,

 

The solution seems to point to two options; each model comes equipped with all brakes in line except the rear and front assemblies, to allow for tight radius curves; also each model should include optional plug in extra brake assemblies with pull rods for the front and rear wheels for those modelling scale radii. The pull rods could plug into the centre wheel outside frame in a neat way with a securing clip at the ends of the inside bogie frame. Having the full brake set up will still allow the loco to negotiate more scale curves. The N gauge version might be more of a problem in this respect. Unless the essential character and unique features of the class 52 are in place, and the bogies are a big part of this Germanic derived machine, then there seems little point making another loco that only ticks some of the boxes. I think Fleischmann managed the full brake set up with pull rods on their diesel hydraulics.

Edited November 7, 2011 by oldlugger

[Rugd1022]

 

That's my guess, although it is only a guess. Do any RtR 00 diesel models actually have scale wheels and ride height? Those I've got/seen (by no means all) either have underscale wheel diameter e.g Hornby Class 50, or increased ride height.

 

I think the Heljan 4mm Hymek is as close as we're going to get on that score.... it does seem to 'sit just right' on it's bogies without looking at all compromised.

[Coach bogie]

 

 

The solution seems to point to two options;

 

Totally agree in those solutions. It just does not fit in with Dapol's proclamation of 'the most accurate 52 to date'

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

[Mark]

Based on previous manufacturer's attempts, there is not enough room for the bogie to swing if the outside brake rods are included. Trix & Lima shortened the skirts to clear, Hornby fitted the skirts to the bogie. Heljan made a good attempt but, with the brake rods inplace, 4ft radius min is the best I can comfortably get. A Peco slip is a big no no.

 

How to overcome this problem was the question I asked when Dapol first announced this and as yet it is still unanswered. I am still curious how Dapol can overcome this issue where all the others have failed.

 

Not long to wait and find out.

 

Mike Wiltshire

The brake rigging on the Western is below the valence. The problem comes from the front and rear brakes, which foul the valences when the model is on a curve. My own design dealt with this by feathering the back of the valences to provide more clearance without compromising on strength. This resulted in a minumum radius of 5 foot for a P4 Western. Since in OO the bogie frames will be narrower, then 3'6" to 4' should be possible without any need for substantial compromises.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

[2ManySpams]

Having been involved in the Dapol/Kernow Beattie Well Tank thread, and currently following this and the D63XXthreads, I must say I'm very impressed with the 'audience participation' approach being taken by Dapol in producing their models. Isn't it refreshing to see constructive comments requested and then acted on by a manufacturer to the benefit of a better model for us. Having got a couple of the BWTs I'm mightily impressed with the attention to detail and the slow / smooth running of the mechanism. I wish Dapol well with their D63XX and D1000 and will certainly be queuing for a 22 at Warley (although I've no idea which one....).

[Coach bogie]

The brake rigging on the Western is below the valence. The problem comes from the front and rear brakes, which foul the valences when the model is on a curve. My own design dealt with this by feathering the back of the valences to provide more clearance without compromising on strength. This resulted in a minumum radius of 5 foot for a P4 Western. Since in OO the bogie frames will be narrower, then 3'6" to 4' should be possible without any need for substantial compromises.

 

Regards

 

Mark Humphrys

4ft rad in 16.5 is the min comfortable for my Heljan with full brake gear. How many people looking to purchase Dapol's have the luxury of 4ft curves? Amongst the many modellers I know, 2' 6" - 3ft appears to be the norm, using Peco medium radii (3ft), curves (4ft/2' 6") and slips (2ft). This is why I am curious if Dapol have solved this issue or are purchasers going to have to leave off part of the gear, as with the Hejan, in order to negotiate tighter curves?

 

Regards

 

MIke Wiltshire

[Steven B]

The minimum radius for the full sized class 52 is 91m (4.5 chains) - this will be at dead slow running speeds. By my reckoning this is about 4 feet in OO. If you want your loco to run on something less than this then there will be compromises with wheel size, ride heights & brake details.

 

Happy modelling.

 

Steven B.

[coachmann]

I have read through this thread and quietly admired Dapol and audience participation inputing information in order that the best 'Western' ever can be produced.

 

Now I've reached the part where compromise is acceptable providing it will also it to go round toytrain curves! :lol:

[Enterprisingwestern]

I have read through this thread and quietly admired Dapol and audience participation inputing information in order that the best 'Western' ever can be produced.

 

Now I've reached the part where compromise is acceptable providing it will also it to go round toytrain curves! :lol:

 

The best Western ever produced and one that will go round train set curves can be one and the same locomotive can't it?

[craigwelsh]

The best Western ever produced and one that will go round train set curves can be one and the same locomotive can't it?

Depends what's done to get it round curves..

 

Tbh the Heljan one was fine there, we only want it without the chav cap really..

[coachmann]

The best Western ever produced and one that will go round train set curves can be one and the same locomotive can't it?

Can it?

[Guest jim s-w]

 

To scratch build and retro fit class 52 brakes and brake rods is a nightmare

 

Cheers

Simon

 

Hi Simon

 

Why not use the brassmasters kit for this? http://www.brassmasters.co.uk/Western.htm

 

Cheers

 

Jim

[Coach bogie]

Can it?

I hope to be proved wrong, but after successive manufacturers have failed to overcome this challenge, I cannot see a mass production solution. Companies need to be careful making statements about levels of accuracy over the competition. In a former life I had over twenty years in advertising and new product development, I would never have got away making such bold claims, especially when I was only at design stage when i made them.

 

I notice Heljan are clearly not retreating with Decembers modeller showing the latest batch of models, due at retailers this week.

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

[spamcan61]

Can it?

 

Yes, given that 'best' is a totally subjective term. Would a 100% accurate Western go round train set curves, no. Would it go round scale minimum radius, probably not.

[coachmann]

My point, which I shouldnt have to make as it is a clear as daylight, is all the talk earlier in the thread about a curve beginning a fraction earlier in line with a window bla bla bla is not on the same planet as making wheels smaller/compromising brake riggings so that the model will engotiate 2nd radius curves.

[spamcan61]

Companies need to be careful making statements about levels of accuracy over the competition. In a former life I had over twenty years in advertising and new product development, I would never have got away making such bold claims, especially when I was only at design stage when i made them.

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

What one might term the 'Stove R effect'

 

 

 

I notice Heljan are clearly not retreating with Decembers modeller showing the latest batch of models, due at retailers this week.

 

Regards

 

Mike Wiltshire

 

Presumably demand has proven sufficient to justify another run, one assumes the model is acceptable to a fair number of buyers as it stands, peaked cap 'n all.

[spamcan61]

My point, which I shouldnt have to make as it is a clear as daylight, is all the talk earlier in the thread about a curve beginning a fraction earlier in line with a window bla bla bla is not on the same planet as making wheels smaller/compromising brake riggings so that the model will engotiate 2nd radius curves.

 

I understood your point, but different buyers have different priorities. They won't please everyone with whatever model emerges, that's for sure. Producing a model that doesn't go round 2nd radius curves would be commercial suicide IMHO.

[S.A.C Martin]

Producing a model that doesn't go round 2nd radius curves would be commercial suicide IMHO.

 

That's the crux of the matter. You can't NOT have a model with certain compromises in this way. Trainset curves have, and always will be, more prevalent than the kit built accurate trackwork of the higher echelons of modelling.

 

I'm not saying accuracy is irrelevant, I am saying the vast majority of purchasers of this Western who buy it to run it won't also have scale track curvature. It's one of the compromises that has to be made unless you have the space for something like Retford or Peterborough (both terrific layouts and something to aim for, but not everyone can have them).

 

On that basis yes, one could reasonably argue that smaller wheels and adjustments to the bogie are more acceptable than the peak cap's shape in terms of compromise to accuracy.

Edited November 10, 2011 by S.A.C Martin

[Guest oldlugger]

A few more suggestions...

 

The last Western model on the market not only had the weird front roof profile but bogie side frames that were all wrong; the brakes standing around a scale foot away from the wheel treads with the shape of the middle wheel bolster all wrong too. The wheels were also the wrong pattern - flat and featureless; no central axle boss or the distinctive four holes that are so characteristic of the class. In answer to Jim S-W's suggestion (cheers Jim); I was aware of these but why should you have to resort to this on a 21st century model loco? It is preposterous that the brake vs tight radii curves issue can't be solved in an era where we can achieve the most extraordinary technical marvels. It CAN be solved with ease in my opinion. Just provide optional plug in front and rear brakes and rodding for those using scale curves. There is also the brake actuator at the rear of the brake assembly and of course sand pipes

 

Also, why not add an engine room interior? The class 52 has very visible Maybach engines; the three side windows (the middle with interior fine metal mesh) give a good view of the mechanics inside. This could be a slim relief plastic fitting behind each window. HO Swiss locos often have this detail; the Re 6/6 and Re 4/4II are good examples.

 

The under side of the fuel tanks needs detail too; the Western has visible pipe work, etc, when viewed from track level. There should be offset roof ventilators and walkways; decent sprung buffers

 

With all of the above the model might get close to being the perfect Western and I might consider buying one; I've had to correct far too many offerings from the past.

 

Cheers

Simon

Edited November 10, 2011 by oldlugger

[DapolDave]

Ah Simon,

 

Did you know about my insistence (i think earlier in this thread) of the pipes under the fuel tank being included, or sprung buffers being part of the spec.?

 

And we are working on the bogie brake rodding and brake distances and alignment to the wheels.

cheers

Dave

[Guest oldlugger]

Ah Simon,

 

Did you know about my insistence (i think earlier in this thread) of the pipes under the fuel tank being included, or sprung buffers being part of the spec.?

 

And we are working on the bogie brake rodding and brake distances and alignment to the wheels.

cheers

Dave

 

That certainly sounds very promising Dave. Good luck with the production.

 

All the best

Simon

[colinjamesporter]

Has the tooling commenced yet?

[Andy Y]

I wouldn't think so. After CADs are finalised and signed off a pre-production engineering prototype model would be made before that, in turn, gets signed off before the tools are made for a production run.