KevinWalsh Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Gordon, Not sure if this is helpful in your decision making, but "Sandford & Banwell" (P4) uses chinchilla dust as ballast. IMHO it actually looks very effective. Kev 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium great northern Posted November 7, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 7, 2012 Don't worry about Tony's ballast Gordon, it is one of the jobs he has only just started on. Norman Solomon just sprayed the whole area light grey, and left Tony to do the rest, and I think the lighting tends to bleach it still more in photos. I was there yesterday, and the photo certainly looks much brighter than the real thing. I remember that when I first showed Norman Saunders a colour photo of PN he at once pointed out about five different ballast colours, ranging from newly laid to ash ballast in sidings that had probably been there since 1950, so I reckon that provided it isn't all the same colour it will look OK. Main line running track though has been discussed quite recently, and the consensus seemed to be that it would have been predominantly brown. One other thing, I know I have previously gone on at you about gradients, though I wasn't alone in so doing, but I feel i should add a word of caution about the loco depot. In the last incarnation of Peterborough I built a large depot, and it proved to be a mistake. I could either operate that or the layout, but there was never time for both. On a layout the size that you and I choose to build a big loco facility is more hindrance than help, unless you are going to have a number of operators working with you on a regular basis. So, if something has to give, I suggest that is where to start. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trustytrev Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 Morning all.... A whole week of wiring, painting and ballasting has left me with one semi completed board where something actually runs! Yippee! It may only be an N2 running under DC power, but it works and that is a good sign. Ballasting really is a pain, particularly as I've made a change and gone over to Woodlands Scenics Fine ballast and now the whole floor seems to have taken on a crunchy persona as no matter how much care is taken, granules find their way to all parts of the room. Right now it all looks a bit grey and things that I read, say grey is not the right colour. The pic from Tony Wright in Gilbert's thread didn't help either as here the ballast looks positively buff in colour, although it may be a lighting issue. Looking in Jeff's thread there are also some very good ballast shots and this one is certainly towards the grey spectrum, albeit with a pinkish overtone. No doubt once weathering is applied to the ballasting, it will take on a far less grey appearance, so very early days yet, but I would love someone to come up with a ballast that more closely resembles the true colouring. Has anyone tried the buff or brown fine ballast mixed with the grey? I've yet to add the ballast edging and cess and then have to decide what to do with the infill. This board will now probably be pushed to one side awaiting decisions on retaining walls and tunnel mouth/overbridge to disguise the access to the storage roads, but it has also given cause to possibly rethink the whole issue of access over the stairs from underneath the board. It made me very aware of how complex the wiring has become and in turn, how access to the Tortoise motors has become more difficult. Manageable on the floor, no problem, but 10' above your head and on the stairs may be another issue. I've spent the last couple of days thinking about this and accept it would probably makes sense for plain track only to be over the stairwell, so where do we go from here? It has been raised on here before and at the time I didn't think it possible, but when faced with the reality of the situation, it does focus the mind. Thankfully nothing would be wasted and everything made to date can be swung round through 180 degrees. The difficulty is the shed area which would have to be redesigned and made to fit into a space that didn't foul up the stairs and yet still allow access to other parts of the layout. So this is what is now on the board. The storage yard moves from one side of the room to the other and the stairwell board now moves into a more sensible position. Above the stairs will be just two mainline loops that have been realigned to give a little more visual interest. The shed itself had to be relaid completely but fits fairly well with access via a headshunt/trailing crossover. The jury is still out on this one as despite my track record, I hate changing things, but my head is telling me it will make far more sense and I'll certainly be far better off should anything fail in the future. As always I'm grateful for any views....within reason. Hello Gordon, Would it not be possible to build some sort of removable light weight platform for using on the stairs when work needs doing?I am sure producing some sort of platform that folds up would be quite easy with your level woodworking ability. trustytrev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted November 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2012 Ballast? Go down to the beach and nick some sand....(mobile phone pics) This is pretty much as it comes from my local seashore, just washed, dried and sieved to get reasonably uniform lumps. Perfect it's not, but I've seen worse. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 Don't worry about Tony's ballast Gordon, it is one of the jobs he has only just started on. Norman Solomon just sprayed the whole area light grey, and left Tony to do the rest, and I think the lighting tends to bleach it still more in photos. I was there yesterday, and the photo certainly looks much brighter than the real thing. I remember that when I first showed Norman Saunders a colour photo of PN he at once pointed out about five different ballast colours, ranging from newly laid to ash ballast in sidings that had probably been there since 1950, so I reckon that provided it isn't all the same colour it will look OK. Main line running track though has been discussed quite recently, and the consensus seemed to be that it would have been predominantly brown. One other thing, I know I have previously gone on at you about gradients, though I wasn't alone in so doing, but I feel i should add a word of caution about the loco depot. In the last incarnation of Peterborough I built a large depot, and it proved to be a mistake. I could either operate that or the layout, but there was never time for both. On a layout the size that you and I choose to build a big loco facility is more hindrance than help, unless you are going to have a number of operators working with you on a regular basis. So, if something has to give, I suggest that is where to start. That's a relief Gilbert. I did wonder, but couldn't imagine that Tony would stray away from the prototypical colouring. Your comment on the loco shed issue was a bit of a surprise. You didn't tell me that when I bought the buildings.. The shed is primarily there to remind me of KX and Hornsey with several locos on display. I will still have far too many tucked away and the fear will always be, out of sight/out of mind. I will be selling something like 30% of my current stock, otherwise they will never get run. In a moment of weakness I seem to have acquired a Hall and a Grange. AC4400's perhaps, but GWR.... As it stands ET has several distinct operating areas. Trains can just trundle round and I can enjoy watching them pass through cuttings and landscaping. This can be going on whilst setting up the next one in the terminus which will involve the shed and carriage sidings yet to be built. The other area will be the storage yard, but in reality you can only operate three trains at once. Two running on the loops unsupervised and one other under control. With more operators on guest days, then there is certainly scope to have three or four operators on their toes, possibly more. A stairwell platform such as you suggest would have been a possibility several years ago Trustytrev, but at 64 and with a balance system that seems to be going downhill rapidly, the thought of standing several feet off the ground and then soldering is a no no. To be honest, I've looked at it most of the afternoon and for the sake of an hours work emptying the room and sliding boards around, I'm coming down on the side of a 180 degree turn. I'm sure it will fit and with no further wiring or loss of any track at all, it makes more sense by the minute. What's the secret of your ballasting technique then Mr H? Although the sand looks a little overscale, I must compliment you, as the neatness of application is first class. I did use some kiln dried sand on an earlier version of ET in the scrub land adjacent to the track which was subsequently airbrushed and then given a blast with a Grassmaster. It looked fine, so I will probably use it again. Here's a blast from the past... 9 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted November 7, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) What's the secret of your ballasting technique then Mr H? Secret? Neat? Me? pour it on, push it about with ex-wife's blusher brush (I think that's what it is, big soft thing and so is the brush), wet with water and washing up liquid, wack on dilute pva with plastic syringe nicked from where I used to work. In other words how everybody else does it. As it's only a roundy roundy trainset, as I don't study it much, and as it's free I can tolerate oversize Edited November 7, 2012 by PhilH 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 7, 2012 Author Share Posted November 7, 2012 I tried that Phil, but failed miserably, even after numerous attempts. I think the shallow depth of SMP sleepers and the size of the medium ballast, (let alone the fine one) made the job nigh on impossible and meant the slightest touch pinged it everywhere, even with a very soft brush. I suspect the weight of beach sand also helped as the WS product is very light by comparison. Yours looks very good indeed and I had hoped you had discovered a new and easy solution. Oh well, back to the 000 brush and hand painting PVA between the sleepers... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Great Bear Posted November 7, 2012 Share Posted November 7, 2012 (edited) Oh well, back to the 000 brush and hand painting PVA between the sleepers... Would Tracklay as Ben Alder and I use be an option for the plain track - easy to use, saves time, end result looks neat to me, at least. Details on Ben's layout thread http://www.rmweb.co....far-north-line/ As you're a perfectionist I suspect there's a catch... Also, maybe I've mistunderstood problem but would a folding combi ladder thing help with access to the track over the stairs? Hope you can keep up the current rate of progress, Jon Edited November 7, 2012 by The Great Bear Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 8, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 8, 2012 The shed is primarily there to remind me of KX and Hornsey with several locos on display. I will still have far too many tucked away and the fear will always be, out of sight/out of mind. I will be selling something like 30% of my current stock, otherwise they will never get run. In a moment of weakness I seem to have acquired a Hall and a Grange. AC4400's perhaps, but GWR.... And I thought that the visit to Pendon and Didcot would have helped along your indoctrination education As it stands ET has several distinct operating areas. Trains can just trundle round and I can enjoy watching them pass through cuttings and landscaping. This can be going on whilst setting up the next one in the terminus which will involve the shed and carriage sidings yet to be built. The other area will be the storage yard, but in reality you can only operate three trains at once. Two running on the loops unsupervised and one other under control. With more operators on guest days, then there is certainly scope to have three or four operators on their toes, possibly more. As I see it the fiddle yard arrangement and capacity would be ideal for working as a staging yard in the US fashion thus allowing concentration on the station (and loco depot) for one way of running an operating session - perhaps not a very long one but certainly an interesting one! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2012 Gordon, a bit off topic but wanted to ask... Did I see somewhere - the Bachmann thread - that you'd got a Blue Pullman and were having problems with btbs through your trackwork? Have you resolved the problem? Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 9, 2012 Author Share Posted November 9, 2012 (edited) Yes, all sorted. The B2B's on the Power Car were up to 0.5mm too wide and bumped a bit through my pointwork. Not really suprised. Stripped it all down and reset them to 14.4mm and now all is well. Of course my first reaction was my track was at fault, so my heart skipped a beat or two, but once I checked the wheel sets I found it was the B2B's on the power bogies that was the problem. Also managed to get ET completely turned round yesterday, although I have boxes all over the place. Trying to swing 12' boards round in an 18' space is impossible with other stuff in the room, so a lot of it is sitting in my lounge right now. I have permission until tomorrow, so guess what I'm doing in the morning.... Glad to see KL is coming along well. A constant source of inspiration and motivation for me.... Edited November 10, 2012 by gordon s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 9, 2012 Trying to swing 12' boards round in an 18" space is impossible Not surprising really... 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted November 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 9, 2012 Yes, all sorted. The B2B's on the Power Car were up to 0.5mm too wide and bumped a bit through my pointwork. Not really suprised. Stripped it all down and reset them to 14.4mm and now all is well. Of course my first reaction was my track was at fault, so my heart skipped a beat or two, but once I checked the wheel sets I found it was the B2B's on the power bogies that was the problem. Also managed to get ET completely turned round yesterday, although I have boxes all over the place. Trying to swing 12' boards round in an 18" space is impossible with other stuff in the room, so a lot of it is sitting in my lounge right now. I have permission until tomorrow, so guess what I'm doing in the morning.... Glad to see KL is coming along well. A constant source of inspiration and motivation for me.... Glad the BP is sorted. Be careful with SWMBO - or you'll find your layout in the garden!! Thanks for the comment about KL. The inspiration works both ways!! Jeff 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 I tried that Phil, but failed miserably, even after numerous attempts. I think the shallow depth of SMP sleepers and the size of the medium ballast, (let alone the fine one) made the job nigh on impossible and meant the slightest touch pinged it everywhere, even with a very soft brush. I suspect the weight of beach sand also helped as the WS product is very light by comparison. Yours looks very good indeed and I had hoped you had discovered a new and easy solution. Oh well, back to the 000 brush and hand painting PVA between the sleepers... Isn't the WS ballast "crushed nuts"? Walnut shells or something...... Best, Pete. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artizen Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Known as lizard litter in this country (available from pet shops). I found it impossible to get a good result on track with sleepers less than 2mm deep as the ballast needs to be at least three grains deep to be able to cover the surface without gaps (that's using crushed walnut shells or screened rock). I personally think screened rock simply looks far more realistic partly because crushed walnut shell is much too large for 1:76 scale. Glued down with a very weak mix of water and PVA to get a result that still leaves the individual particles clearly defined. Usually you need three goes at it but much better than drowning it all in a 50/50 mix and getting a shiny surface from the glue. Gordon - spend time on the important parts of the track that will feature in photos in the future - you will need to be able to show off your stock and scenics to best advantage and the track is going to play a large part in that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 Best ballast I ever saw was in RM years ago. It was on a layout called Pendlebury, and was made from crushed apricot pits....apparently used to clean out jet engines. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 10, 2012 Author Share Posted November 10, 2012 (edited) Did a bit of searching and did see a mention on WS product being made from ground Pecan shells, but certainly not confirmed. Jon, I had a chuckle on your comment that I'm a perfectionist and wasn't sure if that was a compliment or not.... I do try to achieve something I'm happy with and have no problem doing it again if it falls short of my own expectation. I want track to be well put together and trains to run without derailment, however I'm not totally controlled by the need for prototypical accuracy or I'd be in P4. Obviously the Holy Grail is to achieve both, but my compromise is to try and achieve one of the goals. I just don't have the knowledge or experience to achieve both. Ian, your last comment is interesting. Over the years I've realised that layouts are presented as a series of close up shots or small dioramas and there are few that can achieve a high standard of modelling wherever you look. There have certainly been times when I have really admired a layout I have seen in magazines etc and then been disappointed when I have seen it live. After all, a photo is a carefully posed scene frozen in time and doesn't show derailments, the hand of God to encourage a stubborn loco, or parts of a layout where the standard of the professionally lit photographic shots is considerable higher than other parts that haven't been shown. We're creating an illusion. Something that will bring back memories or allow the brain to simply fill in the gaps. The imagination is such a powerful tool and the best layouts to me are those that set those emotions running. Surprisingly, they need not always be totally accurate to the prototype as the focus is then on accuracy rather than those triggers that really stir the imagination. Impossible to describe, but you know when you have seen something special... Edited November 10, 2012 by gordon s 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artizen Posted November 10, 2012 Share Posted November 10, 2012 What I meant by that was to create a different level of excellence in some parts (at least at first) so that good photography is possible. Then later, if you want, you can improve the standard in the other parts as the layout progresses. It would be impossible on a layout of this scale (and its third incarnation) to get everything perfect all over in anything less than two years. You would be happier to get something running and some small parts of the total design finished and polished before tackling another section. Think of it as creating a series of linked dioramas which do not need to be built in a sequential order. Your hand made track is sublime - make sure it is the star along with the rolling stock in photos. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post gordon s Posted November 12, 2012 Author Popular Post Share Posted November 12, 2012 (edited) Just spent a whole weekend moving stuff about and tidying up and for the first time in years, I can actually see the floor and have a reasonable space in which to work. I'm glad to say the stairwell board came out OK, all the boards were moved round 180 degrees and thankfully I was able to actually join them together by adding a couple of small bridging boards to bridge the gaps between the BB's that provided the structure down the three straight sections. Here's some pics of a reasonably tidy room. Of course the downside of having a tidy room is that Mrs S has started to look at the room in a different light and seems to have that mischievous glint in her eye. Maybe I'll start messing it up again... Storage roads plus turntable.. ET Junction. Straight on to ET terminus and left to continuous loop. One tidy room which for once shows some of the design limitations. Taking a break now for a few days as I don't want burn out. Next stage will be to finish all the pointwork in the main junction area and get that operational and then it's start the gradient and just work my way round. Edited November 12, 2012 by gordon s 26 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium eldavo Posted November 12, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted November 12, 2012 No sorry, don't recognise the place. Where's all Gordon's piles of stuff gone? Cheers Dave 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Are we sure It IS Gordon's? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tetleys Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Gordon, I don't want to set you off on yet another re-vamp but I trust all that free space down the middle of the room will receive some baseboards and is that cage I spotted to hold the seriously strong real ale? Dave 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Seriously strong ale is a no brainer. The clear floor is for the dancing girls.....and not those Eastern European weight lifters you had last time. They'll keep me entertained before tackling ET terminus and shed that will fill most of that area. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westerner Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Gordon, you've almost prompted me to have a go at cleaning my room up, its not just the floor but the fiddleyard and dare one say parts of the layout. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold PhilH Posted November 12, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 12, 2012 Are the bar and comfy chairs going in the middle? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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