Torn-on-the-platform Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 I'm glad I asked, thanks chaps. I like the idea of a 2 coach train with the brake end facing inwards but having a 3 coach train would realistically open up the need for a B17 or possibly a B1 (which is a good thing - again, I have no need - pure indulgence). Having a brake in between a compo and a 3rd would look odd to me, but if its plausible, I think it is my best option! I can always add to it as they release new numbers in the future. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfield_Park Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 A quick look at the Hattons listing states Maroon livery... is that correct (I was under the impression that they would appear in Crimson) Hornby have always called it Maroon, but every photo so far seems to suggest Crimson. The Hattons pics suggest likewise by my eye. Will have to take a look at one in the flesh. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 The original painting specification Hornby produced for the printing process stated "Crimson". Whether the shade they use really is Crimson is another question. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 The original painting specification Hornby produced for the printing process stated "Crimson". Whether the shade they use really is Crimson is another question. It would be a great shame to spoil these carriages for a h'aporth of the wrong colour... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeTrice Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 It would be a great shame to spoil these carriages for a h'aporth of the wrong colour... It is the same shade they use on their Crimson/Cream liveried corridor stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 It would be a great shame to spoil these carriages for a h'aporth of the wrong colour... If you take a look at some in branch line use towards the end of thier lives you could justify just about any shade. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Well to my jaded eyes it looks distinctly Crimson. Which is nice. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stuart Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 Thats my proposed set for my early 50s interpretation of the Saltburn-Whitby line. Just need to grab hold of an L1 to run them beind... In Summer1954, the booked Middlesbrough-Whitby-Scarborough sets were BT-CL-T-BT Whitby-Malton BT-CL-BT as were the Border Counties sets (Newcastle - Riccarton/Hawick) Now as to which services used Gresley non-corridors as opposed to earlier NER/NBR or later Thompsons....... Stuart (must ask lankyphil to wander down to Hattons................) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 If you take a look at some in branch line use towards the end of thier lives you could justify just about any shade. True if one is only going off published pictures. But if people were there at the time they would have seen a distinct difference between carmine red applied prior ro 1957 and maroon applied thereafter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfield_Park Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 In Summer1954, the booked Middlesbrough-Whitby-Scarborough sets were BT-CL-T-BT Whitby-Malton BT-CL-BT as were the Border Counties sets (Newcastle - Riccarton/Hawick) Now as to which services used Gresley non-corridors as opposed to earlier NER/NBR or later Thompsons....... Many thanks. From photos it looks like the formations could be more or less anything from almost entirely Gresleys through to a mixture of almost anything else. In the meantime, some Gresleys will do me nicely until I can afford to practice my kit-building. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godders Posted November 15, 2011 Share Posted November 15, 2011 True if one is only going off published pictures. But if people were there at the time they would have seen a distinct difference between carmine red applied prior ro 1957 and maroon applied thereafter. I am fascinated, are you saying that people can remember the colour after 54 years or are you saying that they can remember the colour difference? Cheers Godders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted November 15, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 15, 2011 I am fascinated, are you saying that people can remember the colour after 54 years or are you saying that they can remember the colour difference? Cheers Godders I think the colour difference was pretty obvious although I suppose that impression was enhanced by the fact that as maroon appeared it was new & shiny (at first) while the crimson was weathered (and from what I can recall it did not weather at all well). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I'll bet there were commuter trains down South that used all-firsts. Is the lavatory compo being done I wonder? Most of the firsts went to Scotland, with 2 to the CLC, 2 to the GC and 15 to the GE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
billbedford Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Also if the full brake has the right profile and beading would it be suitble to change to the bogies to the Fox type I'm not sure that any of the vans that had angle underframes ever had Fox bogies. The change from Fox to 8' single bolster Gresley bogies came about 1931/2 and from queen post to angle iron frame slightly later, so in theory there should have been some vans with 8' Gresley bogies and queen posts. If you have photos of vans odd combinations of bogies and underframes the I would like to see them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) True if one is only going off published pictures. But if people were there at the time they would have seen a distinct difference between carmine red applied prior ro 1957 and maroon applied thereafter. It's a great disappointment that some (who perhaps should know better) still insist on referring to BR Crimson Lake, for that is what is was officially called, as Carmine. The actual colour was one of those defined in BS381C, which was first published in 1930 and so when the name for that particular colour (albeit Crimson, without adding Lake - which denotes a production process) was formally agreed. Constant references using incorrect terminology can, indeed do, become received knowledge and that is never a good thing where truth and accuracy are concerned. Likewise, exaggerated use of colours in model painting may lead to manufacturers copying the technique, which may be a problem with the weatherstrips above the doors and the reveals around the lights (windows) in the new Hornby carriages with the teak finish - we shall see... IMHO it merely serves to emphasise the thickness of the mouldings. Edited November 16, 2011 by Pint of Adnams Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pint of Adnams Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I am fascinated, are you saying that people can remember the colour after 54 years or are you saying that they can remember the colour difference? Cheers Godders There are two things here. The first is that certain colours are prone to obvious fading, and the reds are one (blues are another - think Rail Blue and NXEAs old livery, well faded on the Norwich sets). The other is evident from contemporary photographs, when comparing colours taken by the same photographer using the same film in similar conditions. One of the best for this was the late Dick Riley - have a look through albums of his such as The Colour Of Steam vol 9 - The Great Eastern Line, Atlantic, and Steam in East Anglia: A Colour Portrait, Ian Allan. There is also a lovely shot in the former, p26, of a 3 carriage train on the Saffron Walden branch where the centre carriage is in Crimson and the outer ones in Maroon - clearly showing the difference between the two livery colours. Of note is the formation - steel-panelled CLs either side of a BT(4). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Trevellan Posted November 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2011 The postie has just delivered my first example and it is definitely carmine. No time for pictures I'm afraid, but I've had a quick look out of the box and IMHO it's a lovely model. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Bigcheeseplant Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Just found the photo of the two Suburbans at Aylesbury behind a N5 tank. it seems the brake third behind the loco is six compartment with a very short brake section, so not the same as the Hornby model, the coach behind seems like a full third with nine compartments but does not seem to be on Gresley bogies, can anyone enlighten me what diagrams these may be. David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 As usual when colour is mentioned, the know-nowts, armchair therists and those with little experience of painting & lining chip in with their theories. I was in the business of painting & lining long before many of you were born. If you think you know more about my business than me, dream on. Would you tell Alan Brackenbough his buisness? No. Well don't deem to tell me. We dont have to remember what a colour is like after 50 years. I mean where on earth does this come from? There has been a range of model paints around since Cherrys and Precision Paints. I made colour swabs over 40 years ago which are kept in a drawer. From these I mix my spraying paint. Some of my samples were given to me by David Jenkinson on his visits to pick up his coaches. As regards, BR crimson lake, this was sorted back in the 1950s. The LMS had used crimson lake since 1923 and the Midland before that, so for BR to name its coach red crimson lake was confuring to say the least just after nationalization. A well known Editor and author suggested it would be wiser to call it carmine, otherwise it would only be confuring to modellers. He was right as I saw the results once when a chap innocently painted his'Crab' in BR "crimson lake" (carmine red). Enthusiasts of the day called it 'blood' and so my referring to it as carmine is no worse than calling it blood. When people start pontificating about official titles as Pint of Adams has done after all these years, in irritates! Adams also refers to exagerated painting on coaches. I know what he is referring to....It's an argument about teak livery he is brings over to RMweb from another forum he is on. Do you tell all professionals how to conduct their business? 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted November 16, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted November 16, 2011 I have said it before, and I will say it again, that the response and enthusiasm of the Hornby engineers has been a major factor in the quality of these and I would not like to take praise away from them. I do feel this remark also has a place in the current thread debating Hornby's present and future role in our hobby. Clever and creative people world-wide find their efforts compromised in the name of company policy or shareholder demands. A little remark in that thread indicating the willingness at technical level might be kind? 9 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 Godders, on 15 November 2011 - 23:19 , said: I am fascinated, are you saying that people can remember the colour after 54 years or are you saying that they can remember the colour difference? I remember the colour difference, as any other modeller would do of my age and older. I had plenty of time to look at coaches in Manchester Victoria (coaches were my key interest) as a boy and when commuting daily from 1958. In the earlier 1950s there were still non corridor coaches (and some LNWR corridor coaches) in LMS maroon, which looked very dark beside the BR carmine red coaches. In fact some ex LNWR coaches continued to be patch painted or completely repainted in LMS maroon in BR days. We saw them on the Delph Branch.Then in 1956 I remember seeing my first coach in the then new BR maroon (at Chester). It wasnt as dark as the LMS coaches. Later on as David Jenkinson and Bob Essery did more research, the answer lay in the LMS having adopted a darker colour than its prewar crimson lake after the war. The crimnson lake (which BR called maroon!) adopted in 1956 was intended to match prewar LMS crimson lake. Confusing innit.....Blame the BR mandarins! A factor in weathering concerned the varnish. The yellowing effect of copal varnish was well know. Polyurathene varnish was clear and the BR maroon tended to weather into a pinkish shade in later years. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 (edited) Couple of pics for you to argue about.... Edited November 16, 2011 by gordon s 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 They look nice too. Thanks Gordon. On my screen they look carmine (blood), nor maroon. Can you tell if the bogies are the same construction as on the corridor coaches? By that I mean glued on footboards and shockers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
gordon s Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 The bogies appear to be one moulding other than the footboards that are stuck on. See if these help at all. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
davidw Posted November 16, 2011 Share Posted November 16, 2011 I thought that they were initially announced as to be released in maroon? Looks Crimson to me Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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