Building a Stanier mogul

[PenrithBeacon]

I know it's a bit late on now, but wouldn't the 'Jubilee' cab have been a better place to start than all the chopping and adding to a 'Crab' cab?

...

 

[this has at] least has taught me that the Mogul shared the same boiler barrel as the 8F ...

Are you sure? The first ten 8Fs had a vertical throatplate firebox, the rest the sloping throatplate firebox. IIRC the Stanier mogul had a vertical throatplate firebox like the first 300+ Black 5s but  a shortened first ring, like the first ten 8Fs. I might not remember correctly though.

 

Regards

[Timara]

Hi Bob,

 

I know it's a bit late on now, but wouldn't the 'Jubilee' cab have been a better place to start than all the chopping and adding to a 'Crab' cab?

 

Surprisingly, no. The Stanier mogul was merely an "add-on" to the existing Hughes/Fowler version, so there were minimal changes made to the existing cab design, being built at Horwich anyway. It pre-dates the Jubilee by a good year as it is! I've added a pair of images of both cabs that might help to illustrate that one .


 

It's no criticism, I only ask because I'm slowly gathering the bits together to tackle this same project (not having the funds to justify the new Bachmann version coming soon), using scrap bodies from the Hornby 8F and Black 5 (so far), and a cut down 2-6-4T chassis. The resin bodies available are also outside my budget, so I'm doing things the hard way, and intend to make my own one piece casting once I have all the mods done.

 

If you've got a scrap Lima crab body knocking around, that might be a worthwhile donor for the cab. I'd recommend using the 8F boiler and firebox as one, rather than the firebox off the 5MT, purely because it's less to go wrong, as such! There is only a single cladding band to move on the 8F firebox.

As to the forthcoming Bachmann model, I'm most likely going to be buying at least one of them, purely because they were a common sight on the North Wales coast and I happen to rather like them!
 

 

I'm sure there must be more knowledgeable folks than me out there that can give a definitive answer on the correct cab dimensions. So far, I've drawn a blank on finding decent blueprints for the Mogul on the Internet, and I'm having to work from comparative photographs of the different locos, although I have sourced a decent book on Stanier engines by Brian Haresnape. This at least has taught me that the Mogul shared the same boiler barrel as the 8F.

 

Are you sure? The first ten 8Fs had a vertical throatplate firebox, the rest the sloping throatplate firebox. IIRC the Stanier mogul had a vertical throatplate firebox like the first 300+ Black 5s but a shortened first ring, like the first ten 8Fs. I might not remember correctly though.

Regards

 
PB is right there. The boiler barrel of the mogul was almost identical to that on the first ten 8Fs. Just a shorter firebox.

Cheers!

[PenrithBeacon]

Hi Bob,

 

 

Surprisingly, no. The Stanier mogul was merely an "add-on" to the existing Hughes/Fowler version, so there were minimal changes made to the existing cab design, being built at Horwich anyway. It pre-dates the Jubilee by a good year as it is! I've added a pair of images of both cabs that might help to illustrate that one .

 

42968 cab_16608.jpg 5690 cab_13202.jpg

 

 

If you've got a scrap Lima crab body knocking around, that might be a worthwhile donor for the cab. I'd recommend using the 8F boiler and firebox as one, rather than the firebox off the 5MT, purely because it's less to go wrong, as such! There is only a single cladding band to move on the 8F firebox.

 

As to the forthcoming Bachmann model, I'm most likely going to be buying at least one of them, purely because they were a common sight on the North Wales coast and I happen to rather like them!

 

 

PB is right there. The boiler barrel of the mogul was almost identical to that on the first ten 8Fs. Just a shorter firebox.

 

Cheers!

OK, I've done a little research something which perhaps I ought to have done before. The fireboxes on the Stanier Mogul and the original vertical throatplate 8Fs seem to have been the same, but ... the vertical throatplate 8Fs had a longer boiler barrel compared with the Mogul. The sloping throatplate 8Fs had the same boiler barrel as the Mogul.

 

If I've got this right to get a Mogul firebox & boiler barrel it would be necessary to bash together the boiler barrel from a sloping throatplate 8F with the firebox from a vertical throatplate 8F.

 

The cab of the Stanier and Hughes Moguls seem to have been the same and the first 20 Staniers had the same arrangement of the Midland whistle as the Hughes but the last twenty Staniers had the Stanier hooter.

 

Regards

[Timara]

OK, I've done a little research something which perhaps I ought to have done before. The fireboxes on the Stanier Mogul and the original vertical throatplate 8Fs seem to have been the same, but ... the vertical throatplate 8Fs had a longer boiler barrel compared with the Mogul. The sloping throatplate 8Fs had the same boiler barrel as the Mogul.

 

If I've got this right to get a Mogul firebox & boiler barrel it would be necessary to bash together the boiler barrel from a sloping throatplate 8F with the firebox from a vertical throatplate 8F.

 

Regards

 

That would make sense.  Mine used a conventional domed 8F boiler, but with all the infilling of the dome necessary to put a combined dome/top feed casing ahead of it.

 

The cab of the Stanier and Hughes Moguls seem to have been the same and the first 20 Staniers had the same arrangement of the Midland whistle as the Hughes but the last twenty Staniers had the Stanier hooter.

 

They were actually L&Y whistles and the last ten (2975-2984) carried the hooter. I have photos of the preceding ten and they all have the L&Y one.

 

Cheers,

[Horsetan]

.....If I've got this right to get a Mogul firebox & boiler barrel it would be necessary to bash together the boiler barrel from a sloping throatplate 8F with the firebox from a vertical throatplate 8F...

 

You're going to be shortening that Hornby 8F firebox anyway.

[PenrithBeacon]

 

That would make sense.  Mine used a conventional domed 8F boiler, but with all the infilling of the dome necessary to put a combined dome/top feed casing ahead of it.

 

 

They were actually L&Y whistles and the last ten (2975-2984) carried the hooter. I have photos of the preceding ten and they all have the L&Y one.

 

Cheers,

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. My view is that the Horwich mogul carried the Midland whistle but with a new design of working it ie turning the whistle on and off. The traditional LYR whistle, a most pleasant mellow sounding whistle, was carried on top of the cab and worked by a lanyard. This approach wasn't possible with the Mogul because it was designed to fit into the LMS Group loading gauge which was significantly smaller than the  LYR one.

 

The Midland whistle, which emitted a pretty unwholesome howl to my ears, also had its problems in that it was worked by a stop cock that was mounted at the top of the cab and directly worked the whistle simply by turning the cock one way or the other. The disadvantage of this was that the driver had to take his eyes off the road to sound the whistle and this wasn't acceptable by the time the Mogul was being designed.

 

The solution adopted was for the Midland whistle to be worked by a mechanism which permitted the driver or fireman to operate the whistle while standing at their normal positions and able to see the road ahead. The preserved Stanier Mogul has a Midland whistle albeit one which sounds a little 'off tune' probably because of wear.

 

Regards

[beachcomber_bob]

OK, I've done a little research something which perhaps I ought to have done before. The fireboxes on the Stanier Mogul and the original vertical throatplate 8Fs seem to have been the same, but ... the vertical throatplate 8Fs had a longer boiler barrel compared with the Mogul. The sloping throatplate 8Fs had the same boiler barrel as the Mogul.

 

If I've got this right to get a Mogul firebox & boiler barrel it would be necessary to bash together the boiler barrel from a sloping throatplate 8F with the firebox from a vertical throatplate 8F.

 

The cab of the Stanier and Hughes Moguls seem to have been the same and the first 20 Staniers had the same arrangement of the Midland whistle as the Hughes but the last twenty Staniers had the Stanier hooter.

 

Regards

 

I'm so glad their are folks out there with more knowledge than I. I was merely working from what info I could readily find, and the Brian Haresnape book. These drawings from that book (and an comment by the OP) are what made me believe the boiler barrels would be the same:

 

 

I understand the firebox being shorter - I know there's going to be some cutting to be done at the backhead end. But the smokebox mods should be minimal.

[beachcomber_bob]

Hi Bob,

 

 

Surprisingly, no. The Stanier mogul was merely an "add-on" to the existing Hughes/Fowler version, so there were minimal changes made to the existing cab design, being built at Horwich anyway. It pre-dates the Jubilee by a good year as it is! I've added a pair of images of both cabs that might help to illustrate that one .

 

 

 

Thanks Tim. Yes, now I see the differences. I was working on the premise that the cab's 'skirt' depth (below the footplate line) was the same, but now I see that the window apertures are too high on the Jubilee sides for it to be workable.  

 

Ho hum - back to the drawing board....

[Horsetan]

...... I was working on the premise that the cab's 'skirt' depth (below the footplate line) was the same, but now I see that the window apertures are too high on the Jubilee sides for it to be workable.  

 

Ho hum - back to the drawing board....

 

Not sure how useful this would be, but here we go: why not avail yourself of South Eastern Finecast's spares service and obtain the cabsides and roof from their "Crab" kit?

[coachmann]

When this thread started I had it in mind to build one. Now I only need await the Bachmann model....Great! Back in the early 1970s I bought a stratchbuilt Stanier 2-6-0 from a well-know builder in Scotland before selling it to go into North American Jap Brass. If only the phases in our lives were joined up I would still have that beautiful model, which on reflection was about the price the Bachmann will be!

[Jamiel]

As I said in another thread, just as soon as you get a kit, parts, or whatever to make a model, one of the RTR makers comes up with one.

http://www.Bachmann.co.uk/details.php?id=94&vis=2

 

Thanks for the post Coachmann.

[LMS2968]

www.staniermogulfund.org.uk - look in the Technical page.

 

There are two differences between the Stanier and Horwich Crab cabs: the stanier one is deeper and finishes level with the bottom of the tender tank; and the roof vent slides on the Stanier and lifts on the Horwich version.

 

Dome excepted, the 2-6-0 boiler (which, being the first, is the one to work from) was used as the 8F boiler from 8012 onwards, i.e. with sloping throatplate. The firebox was interchangeable with that on 8000 - 8011 (and also the vertical throatplate Black Fives), i.e. vertical throatplate. Boilers were all, again, dome excepted, identical on the tapered section but the front, parallel section varied in length between 2-6-0 (3D), both types of Black Five (3B), Both types of 5X (3A), and both types of 8F (3C). The first twenty engines had the boiler clothing following the profile of the boiler itself, i.e. the front section parallel, the rear sharply tapered, but all except 2955 had it replaced by clothing with a continuous taper at various dates, usually prior the nationalisation. 2955 kept the split taper clothing to the end. The original ten boilers had the safety valves in the top feed, necessitating a very tall dome-shaped cover. Over time - into BR days - these were modified to standard, but in the meantime, these boilers were fitted at overhauls to later engines, usually in the 297X and 298X series (you need to check with dated photos). The original NINE engines (13245-53) had square-topped cylinders and retained them for life, except 2949, which had standard cylinders from 1947 at the latest.

 

There were other minor variations in the atomiser steam pipe valve (LH side of smokebox) and the bends in its vertical pipe. No 2-6-0 was ever fitted with a door support bracket on the RH side of the smokebox ring.

 

The whistles were originally Midland pattern, except on the last ten 2-6-0s. The last five had only a single mechanical lubricator on the RH running plate. You also need to check the tender: some were snap-head rivetted (the originals), some were countersunk rivetted. They originally had coal rails, but changes were commonplace.

 

But I don't have original drawings!

[coachmann]

The most obvious difference, to me, is the 'Crab' and Stanier 2-6-0 variant had pure 'Horwich' cabs with what might be termed a cut-out at the rear, though in fact it was a horizontal extension of the lower cabside. Stanier revived the cab for his own locos but never used the cut-out (except on the aformentioned 2-6-0). He also changed the profile of the cab roof. 

 

Not all Stanier cabs were so deep as to end in line with the tender running plate. Those fitted to Rebuilt 'Patriots' were shallower, probably as a result of using existing framing. This is one slap happy chappy looking forward to buying the Bachmann Stanier Mogul now.

[PenrithBeacon]

... This is one slap happy chappy looking forward to buying the Bachmann Stanier Mogul now.

Me too!

[LMS2968]

Me too!

Glad to know I'm not alone!