Midland Crimson Lake

[Chrislock]

Hi.

 

At risk of opening an old chestnut, I am having trouble getting the correct colour for Midland / LMS passenger livery.

In N gauge, my choice, I have a Union Mills 2P which to me is more pillar box red than Midland red! It looks particularly odd against the more maroon/crimson LMS coaches.

I am beginning to wish I had bought this one in black like my other UM LMS locos!

If anyone can recommend a paint no. etc I would be very grateful.

I have tried a couple of Halfords sprays which are supposed to be close, and which aren't), a phoenix Midland Lake, a Humbrol clear crimson laquer over a maroon base

and a Humbrol ARC.

 

Thanks

Chris

 

 

Sorry posted this in the wrong topic and don't know how to move it!!

[Poor Old Bruce]

Yes, it does look a bit bright. Some lining might tone it down. Various books (authors) tell us that Midland Lake was the same as LMS Crimson Lake and the same as BR Maroon and that any variation could be due to the colour of the undercoat. Certainly the maroon was quite bright when freshly applied but it soon toned down in service although 46245 was cleaned up very nicely for Derby Loco Works open day in August 1964 and then withdrawn less than four weeks later . It may be that those modelling in 12 inches to the foot have the same problem as Duchess of Sutherland looks a different red (LMS) to that which was applied to City of London (BR).

 

Some of the available paints and some RTR models do seem a rather muddy colour to my eyes though which is a shame really. The old favourite from the car paint range was Damask Red but that was many years ago and probably no longer available.

 

Sorry if this is more sympathy than assistance but I would like to know the answer as well.

 

Richard

[6029 King Stephen]

Whilst trying to find how to produce Malachite green by blending Humbrol paints I discovered that Humbrol now produce a variety of rail colours in their acrylic paint range. One of these is crimson lake. Not sure what shade it comes out when dry but given that Hornby now own Airfix and Humbrol, there's a good chance that it might match their own LMS red RTR stuff.

 

Regards,

 

Steve

[2512silverfox]

Try using Phoenix Precision LMS Crimson Lake but it must be over a red oxide primer. Crimson Lake is transparent so the undercoat shows through. This colour was common to LMS and MR.

[Bruciethefish]

That does look bright... The Halford's favourite for crimson lake is indeed Rover Damask Red, which is certainly still available at my local branch.... Otherwise, you're looking at the Prescision or Humbrol authentic colours... Some lining would also definately help - they just don't look right without it....

[jwealleans]

I'm sure Coachmann has been involved in some discussion about this, possibly on the old forum. Choice of undercoat is important (the real thing had at least one coat of blue, IIRC). Rover Damask Red is certainly available and looks pretty close from the Doncaster side of the Pennines.

[Mallard60022]

I'm sure Coachmann has been involved in some discussion about this, possibly on the old forum. Choice of undercoat is important (the real thing had at least one coat of blue, IIRC). Rover Damask Red is certainly available and looks pretty close from the Doncaster side of the Pennines.

 

Yup. Coachman could undoubtedly give you the gen. If you are going to Warley (other shows are available this weekend or later), speak with Mr Rathbone and make notes.

Thanks for the undercoat tip guys; it does make a difference, especially on coaches with large flat areas and I'm sure loco's will be the same (but my loco's have all been black so far so I can't verify!)

A. Brush

[brian777999]

I painted a Ratio LMS coach with Phoenix Precision Crimson Lake and it turned out very well. The plastic was a light cream colour so I did not bother with an undercoat. I just gave it one good solid coat of crimson lake with the airbrush. A red oxide undercoat is advisable though, especially if painting over dark coloured plastic

 

This is a messy colour to use. It does not turn into a dry "dust" before it hits the floor like other colours. Make sure you put plenty of newspaper down or you will have one hell of a clean up job like I did !.

[Buckjumper]

I've found that translucent colours such as Midland Crimson Lake and Great Eastern Ultramarine (it's not 'Royal Blue'!) by Phoenix Precision have a greater depth and lustre when sprayed over a white primer rather than red oxide and grey respectively, both of which, to my eye, impart a slightly muddier, two-dimensional finish.

[Il Grifone]

I recall the Airfix coaches were condemned for their flat muddy finish. Apparently a coat of varnish sorted things out. (I believe any difference between MR and LMS crimson lake and BR maroon is down to the number of coats (and type?) of varnish.)

[PGN]

All red pigments are translucent to a greater or lesser degree, so the undercoat matters too.

 

I paint with enamels, and found that a grey base layer, followed by a chocolate brown undercoat, followed by an appropriate crimson worked quite well. Problem is, I cannot for teh life of me remember which crimson I used!!

 

I recently bought some Cherry Paints MR locomotive red, and will be doing some experiments with that ...

[Chrislock]

Thankyou all for your replies.

 

My ongoing research has just unearthed this :

 

???An engine going through the paintshop received two coars of lead-grey paint, all rough edges being stopped with a mixture of gold size and dry white lead, rubbed smooth with water and pumice. On top went four coats of purple brown, then one of crimson lake with an admixture of purple brown. After lining out, five coats of varnish were applied.

In special cases, for exhibition, the underside of the boiler barrel was painted cream to reflect light on the motion underneath.

 

The paint was made in the works at Derby. Midland carriages had been crimson for much longer than the engines. Officially Midland red was perpetuated by the London Midland and Scottish Railway after 1923, but it was never the same, save for a while on the old Midland Division, owing to changes in the ingredients.

 

??? -- C.Hamilton Ellis, The Midland Railway, Ian Allen, 1953.

 

So I am going to experiment on some scrap with a GREY primer, a couple of coats of purple brown ( LNWR plum, possibly?) and a single coat of crimson lake over the top. That cannot, surely, be far wrong?

It doesn't look like you can achieve it with one single colour.

Cheers,

Chris

[coachmann]

You may have seen my coaches in the LMS coaches...Coachmann thread. http://www.rmweb.co....ages-coachmann/

 

The undercoat is red oxide cellulose from an aerosil.

 

Colour is crimson lake, mixed to match as near as dammit Ripserol Midland red obtained from the stores at Derby Works many years ago. The closest enamel I've come across was from Cherry's Paints. Damask Red is slightly muddier and browner.

 

How I came to paint all David Jenkinson's 7mm coaches was, he saw the coaches I had painted for Niel Corner and, in his eyes, the crimson lake looked right. I those days I used grey primer (red oxide couldnt be trusted to key to brass and aluminium). This had to be 'killed' before spraying on crimson lake and so I used a purplish mix undercoat beforehand.

 

Jump forward some years and David J. was browsing through my sprayshop when he came across the tin of Ripsoral paint and enquired where I'd obtained it. "Freddie Bartholomew, storekeeper at Derby" I replied. He then said, "No wonder your crimson lake has always looked right"!

 

When I "discovered" Simoniz red oxide aerosils, I never looked back. The models in my 'WB Blogs' appear to be different shades of lake simply because some were photographed in sun and others on overcast days.

 

I trust this assists.

 

Larry Goddard

[Penlan]

..... The models in my 'WB Blogs' appear to be different shades of lake simply because some were photographed in sun and others on overcast days.

And that is why IMO nobody can be absolutely pedantic as to a colour seen. Mentioned earlier, lining, I know my LNWR coach Plum and White* look completely different once I've put the lining on.

 

* actually I found the white to be more of a cross between French Grey and Duck Egg Blue, the original Precision White was a lot 'bluer' in the early 80's than that available now (I still have tins from the late 70's). I did have some paint 'scrappings' from a LNWR carriage in a field off the M50 at one time - they where lodged with the LNWR Soc. back in the early 80's.

 

Penlan

[Chrislock]

And that is why IMO nobody can be absolutely pedantic as to a colour seen. Mentioned earlier, lining, I know my LNWR coach Plum and White* look completely different once I've put the lining on.

 

* actually I found the white to be more of a cross between French Grey and Duck Egg Blue, the original Precision White was a lot 'bluer' in the early 80's than that available now (I still have tins from the late 70's). I did have some paint 'scrappings' from a LNWR carriage in a field off the M50 at one time - they where lodged with the LNWR Soc. back in the early 80's.

 

Penlan

 

Yes I am coming round to the view that is down to the individual feeling that it "looks right" - and that Union Mills just doesn't for me.

 

I do intend to add some lining eventually, but want the colour to look right first!

Another problem is that the present colour seems to have been applied quite thickly - and paint thickness is obviously more of an issue with N gauge. I definitely don't want to add many more layers, that's for sure.

 

Cheers

Chris

[Chrislock]

You may have seen my coaches in the LMS coaches...Coachmann thread. http://www.rmweb.co....ages-coachmann/

 

The undercoat is red oxide cellulose from an aerosil.

 

Colour is crimson lake, mixed to match as near as dammit Ripserol Midland red obtained from the stores at Derby Works many years ago. The closest enamel I've come across was from Cherry's Paints. Damask Red is slightly muddier and browner.

 

How I came to paint all David Jenkinson's 7mm coaches was, he saw the coaches I had painted for Niel Corner and, in his eyes, the crimson lake looked right. I those days I used grey primer (red oxide couldnt be trusted to key to brass and aluminium). This had to be 'killed' before spraying on crimson lake and so I used a purplish mix undercoat beforehand.

 

Jump forward some years and David J. was browsing through my sprayshop when he came across the tin of Ripsoral paint and enquired where I'd obtained it. "Freddie Bartholomew, storekeeper at Derby" I replied. He then said, "No wonder your crimson lake has always looked right"!

 

When I "discovered" Simoniz red oxide aerosils, I never looked back. The models in my 'WB Blogs' appear to be different shades of lake simply because some were photographed in sun and others on overcast days.

 

I trust this assists.

 

Larry Goddard

 

 

Thanks for that Larry - very interesting, and yes I have been aware and admired your work for some time.

So that is Simoniz red oxide cellulose under a crimson lake enamel?

Is Cherry C160 Derby Red from Phoenix paints the one you refer to?

[coachmann]

So that is Simoniz red oxide cellulose under a crimson lake enamel?

Is Cherry C160 Derby Red from Phoenix paints the one you refer to?

Simonize red oxide was chosen purely on the grounds that it keyed to brass, nickel silver and aluminium model railway coaches and did not rip off with the masking tape. Sadly it cannot be obtained in the UK now. Halfords offer a good red oxide aerosil that is perfectly suited to undercoat for crimson lake.

 

My tin of Cherry's enamel is very old. The label simply says 'MR Loco Red' written in Biro.

____________________________________________________________________________________

 

I'm not getting heavily involved in this as I know from experience on RMweb what happens...... Already the

academics are beginning to argue their case. There is an accepted Midland crimson lake, a gold standard to aim for. Theories about colour casts, eye-perception and weathering only clouds the issues until nobody is sure of anything.

 

LG

[Chrislock]

Fair enough,

I think I have enough to go on anyway so time to try out a few things!

Cheers

Chris

 

I'm not getting heavily involved in this as I know from experience on RMweb what happens...... Already the

academics are beginning to argue their case. There is an accepted Midland crimson lake, a gold standard to aim for. Theories about colour casts, eye-perception and weathering only clouds the issues until nobody is sure of anything.

 

LG

[PGN]

I suspect you'll find you only need a single coat of your brown middle layer. Enamels and lead paint have different covering properties; and three coats of enamel is quite enough for any model to put up with!

[coachmann]

Enamels and lead paint have different covering properties; and three coats of enamel is quite enough for any model to put up with!

Very true. I only spray on two coats of crimson lake cellulose and this evaporates rather than cures. Some colours, for example Malachite green, cover in one coat and it doesnt matter if the undercoat is black(!) In case that sounds like a joke, I used an almost black undercoat under GER blue. In cellulose, the blue was so transparent once it had been thinned for spraying that it needed a dark solid base.

 

There is an argument for lightening railway colours for going on models. Ernest Carter suggested this in the 1940's. It is one I have never subscribed to. That said, I do distress lining colours, the reason being that scale width lining in 4mm is hard to acheave and can so easily overpower the main body colour.

 

White lining is the worst and I tone it down with brown and black. My orange lining as applied on GWR and BR green locos is a brownish shade for the same reason. Red lining acts the other way however. It is quite transparent straight from the tin and so I add orange to it, roughly 50-50. I've added painters paste before now to try and give it body. Tricks of the trade....

 

Larry

[brian777999]

Has anybody actually tried the Humbrol acrylic crimson lake paint ? I am curious if it is close or way off the mark. I wonder why they only make it only in acrylic and not enamel ?

[Ceptic]

____________________________________________________________________________________

 

I'm not getting heavily involved in this as I know from experience on RMweb what happens...... Already the

academics are beginning to argue their case. There is an accepted Midland crimson lake, a gold standard to aim for. Theories about colour casts, eye-perception and weathering only clouds the issues until nobody is sure of anything.

 

LG

 

I agree...

 

The same goes for LNER Doncaster vs. Darlington Green ,. LM&S Crewe vs. Derby vs. BR(M) Maroon / Crimson Lake, ...Southern Malachite Green vs. pre/post-war differences, vs. BR's later, dull, interpretations.

 

 One missing, is variations of GWR's 'Chocolate and Cream'......Any takers ?