Waverley's Most Wanted

['CHARD]

Just to give you some context, D416 was released to traffic on 27th April '68.  She's barely 2 months into her career here.

 

The NUR began its work-to-rule on 24th June '68 (awesome period details here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/24/newsid_2943000/2943686.stm ).

 

It was called off on Friday 5th July, so that gives us the likely window (unless there was a second wave of unrest?).  And didn't the WR diversions only happen at weekends?

[Bill Jamieson]

IS63 was the 12:05 Euston - Glasgow from the timetable change in May 1970 but in summer 1968 the destination for the 12:05 was Perth. A web search suggests that 1S63 had applied for some years previously to a Euston - Perth train so I'm fairly sure the train depicted here is the 12:05 Euston - Perth.

 

Bill

['CHARD]

 

IS63 was the 12:05 Euston - Glasgow from the timetable change in May 1970 but in summer 1968 the destination for the 12:05 was Perth. A web search suggests that 1S63 had applied for some years previously to a Euston - Perth train so I'm fairly sure the train depicted here is the 12:05 Euston - Perth.

 

Bill

 

 

Good sleuthing Mr J.

 

I wonder which way round this went after leaving Edinburgh....  Stirling the long way or through Glenfarg?  If it was the latter I think I need to lie down.

[Bill Jamieson]

The 12:05 was booked to call at Larbert, Stirling and Gleneagles but of course it would depend on which lines the industrial action affected.

 

Bill

[37175]

RCTS Railway Observer from August 1968 comments: 

 

"On Friday 28th June, English Electric Type 4 D416 was noted at Craigentinny heading what appeared to be a Euston-Glasgow train (1S65) at about 22.00, presumably having been diverted via the Waverley Route as a result of the N.U.R./A.S.L.E.F. dispute."

 

 

Yes, it does say 1S65 in the text. Did the wrong number get wound onto the head code blind? Did someone read it incorrectly at Craigentinny? Was it even the same day or train?

[Bill Jamieson]

A train passing Craigentinny at about 22:00 would most likely have been the somewhat delayed 14:05 Euston to Glasgow, which was due away from Carlisle at 19:18. The 1970-71 WTT gives the reporting number for this train as 1S75 and it's almost certain that this would also have applied two years previously.  As 37175 suggests, the third digit of the headcode blind could have been incorrectly wound on, perhaps to halfway between the 6 and 7, which would have misled the observer.

 

1S65 in 1968 (outwith the summer period) was the Edinburgh portion of the down Thames-Clyde Express.

 

Bill

['CHARD]

I think this gem from the Spaven collection deserves airing here:

 

http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=47011

 

It's very seldom that you see any decent colour footage of the homes at Riccarton.

[ian b]

Just seen the shot of D416- simply fantastic!!!!!!!!!!

[mooota1514]

Hi, does anyone know what this is I was out a walk on the old Waverley line between hawick and hassendean


http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii479/mattytun/038_zps86edeb87.jpg
 

['CHARD]

Hi, does anyone know what this is I was out a walk on the old Waverley line between hawick and hassendean

 

 

http://i551.photobucket.com/albums/ii479/mattytun/038_zps86edeb87.jpg

North British axlebox cover by the look of it! Great find!

[Mad McCann]

That's a nice find. three years ago, an old Caley axlebox cover was found at culvert 198 near Whitrope and is now in the care of the WRHA. 

[Mad McCann]

One of the real Holy Grail quests on the Waverley is the possibility of an NBL type 2 sighting on the route.

Whilst no real hard evidence has so far surfaced, Flickr has turned up this gem from St Margarets with an NBL on shed. Of course it could have been stored or a failure but diesel traction operated out of Haymarket for the most part and it's more likely an NBL from the west or north east would have ended up there.

So while there are other possible explanations, the image is a nice tentative hint at a possible Waverley appearance.

 

https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/52467480@N08/6462576457/

[Downendian]

D6138 was initially allocated to 64A.

This link

http://www.railuk.info/history/gethistory.php?id=609

States that the first ScR allocated NBLs at Kittybrewster and St Margarets operated evening freights to Carlisle and back in crew training. The shortest route for that (Edinburgh/Aberdeen) has to be the Waverley, although Eastfield allocated machines may have worked due South from there too. For D6138 to be actually allocated to St Margarets is a strong suggestion it worked the route.

Evidence for them in Carlisle in those early days is here

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h2B83C0FF#h2b83c0ff

Whilst no photographic evidence has yet emerged on the WR, it's highly likely they worked the route especially just after delivery.

 

Neil

[Bill Jamieson]

I can't add anything substantive regarding NBL Type 2s working over the WR except to say that none of them feature in Kenneth Gray's list. However this is very much a work still in progress and can't be regarded as definitive proof of their non-appearance through Hawick. 

 

The 1953 timetable which appears in "The District Controller's View - No.8 The Waverley Route" shows two overnight class C freights from Aberdeen (dep. 20:20 and 22:25) to Carlisle routed via Hawick and in all probability these trains would still have been running in 1960 when D6138 arrived at Kittybrewster. As both freights passed over the WR in the early hours, it is unlikely that they would have been observed by any enthusiasts, but this would hardly apply to the return loco workings later in the day. Both trains were booked to change locos in Edinburgh (presumably at Niddrie Yard) and to swap over St. Margarets / Canal crews at Hawick, so it seems to me more likely that the Type 2s were only deployed north of Edinburgh (although I would be happy to be proved wrong on this) - the loco off the 20:20 from Aberdeen could have gone back north on the 17:50 from Canal which arrived in Edinburgh just before midnight. 

 

Regarding NBL Type 2s reaching Carlisle, as late as 1970-71, there was still a booked working for an Eastfield class 29 over Beattock. The WTT for that winter shows the 19:57 Sighthill to Carlisle New Yard (6M84) and the 00:12 return (6S75) as being so booked. In earlier years, a not-unlikely failure on arrival at Carlisle would doubtless have seen the loco dumped on Kingmoor shed awaiting repair.

 

Bill

[AJCT]

My "Waverley Wanted" list would include the following:

• Swindon 6-car Intercity DMU: an E&G set (Class 126?), preferably in GSYP;
• Swindon 3-car Cross-country DMU: an Inverness-Aberdeen set (Class120?), ditto;
• Highland Lines BR/Sulzer Type 2 (Class 24/1) from the D5114-D5132 list, in GSYP.

Why, I hear you ask?  Well, that’s because I have (or have planned) the models and want to know if I can legitimately run them on Newton Duns, or whether I need to exercise “modeller’s licence”!

 

If the Swindon DMUs appeared, it would no doubt be on specials or excursions: published pics suggest that the 3-car sets got as far afield as Leven and Oban, anyway.  As for the Type 2, I’ve seen Bruce’s splendid pic of BFYE D5116 at Hawick, but I’d prefer a green one… any help appreciated.

 

Alasdair

[The Border Reiver]

D6138 was initially allocated to 64A.

This link

http://www.railuk.info/history/gethistory.php?id=609

States that the first ScR allocated NBLs at Kittybrewster and St Margarets operated evening freights to Carlisle and back in crew training. The shortest route for that (Edinburgh/Aberdeen) has to be the Waverley, although Eastfield allocated machines may have worked due South from there too. For D6138 to be actually allocated to St Margarets is a strong suggestion it worked the route.

Evidence for them in Carlisle in those early days is here

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h2B83C0FF#h2b83c0ff

Whilst no photographic evidence has yet emerged on the WR, it's highly likely they worked the route especially just after delivery.

 

Neil

 

Having lived in Carlisle for most of my early life and a keep 'spotter' I cannot recall seeing any NBL Type 2s either on the WR or in Canal shed, which I visited most days until it closed in June 1963.

 

The Eastfield locos had a regular working to Carlisle just after they were transferred from Stratford (some still carrying their 30A shedplates). Initially, they were in pairs and the return journey was from the Viaduct yard, sometime around 2100.  I cannot recollect seeing any on Kingmoor either, except D6123 which paused there in early 1963 en-route to Paxmans to have its engine replaced. I managed to take a photo of it in Kingmoor with my Brownie Box camera, which I have attached.

 

Howie

 

 

 

D6123 on Kingmoor shed en-route to Paxmans to have its engine replaced - early 1963

['CHARD]

My "Waverley Wanted" list would include the following:

• Highland Lines BR/Sulzer Type 2 (Class 24/1) from the D5114-D5132 list, in GSYP.

Why, I hear you ask?  Well, that’s because I have (or have planned) the models and want to know if I can legitimately run them on Newton Duns, or whether I need to exercise “modeller’s licence”!

 

If the Swindon DMUs appeared, it would no doubt be on specials or excursions: published pics suggest that the 3-car sets got as far afield as Leven and Oban, anyway.  As for the Type 2, I’ve seen Bruce’s splendid pic of BFYE D5116 at Hawick, but I’d prefer a green one… any help appreciated.

 

Alasdair

 

Fear not, there is plenty of evidence of GSYP Highland Baby Sulzer action over these doomed metals.

 

I haven't the list to hand, but it does exist. Watch this space, I'll edit it in soon.

 

 

Not the list, but all the gen's available for perusal here:

http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/34123-highland-baby-sulzers-Bachmann-announce-d5135/page-2

 

Around post 30 we establish that D5131 The Legend worked in summer '68 in GSYP and at the very end in BFYE.

[Downendian]

i do love research projects such as these.

Two opposing theories - NBLs did traffic onto the WR in their early trials or sporadically, or they did not and never travelled the route.

 

There is no substantive evidence yet for either, but I certainly wouldn't stake anything cash wise on the idea they never met WR metals.

 

However I'm intrigued as to why a solitary NBL was allocated to St Margaret's - why was this? Crew training/motive power/route testing for possible use on Canal bound freights? Maybe this idea was scrapped after rather less than splendid reliability was revealed, and the machines settled into their routes familiar to us by period photographs. Theories not fact, but this fact remains, D6138 was a 64A loco for a while. Why was it there? I'd love to know more.

 

Revealing my interest, I've been accused (on another forum I add) of creating a myth that NBLs were routinely on the WR. My comment related to the fact that the forthcoming Dapol 4mm 21/29s would be of great interest to fans of the Scottish railway scene of which I identified them as fans of the Waverley route. Perhaps clumsily worded, but in my view a misrepresentation. I never said NBLs were on the WR, but has prompted me to look and see if they did do so - I've learnt a lot about WR operations including this fine thread in the process. Great stuff, fantastic contributions from aficionados of this route.

 

Railway research, certainly at 50+ years out, needs an open mind, that's how Scientists routinely work -question everything. The Flickr revolution has transformed my ideas on what happened years ago - for example I had no idea that class 40s were pressed into service on the 3S15 from Bristol to Sighthill (changing at Bescot) in the early 1980s, a service I waited patiently for in the 1970s many evenings. I look forward to other rare photos emerging over the coming years, there are for sure gems to come. Must get my full collection up someday.

 

Neil

[62440]

My "Waverley Wanted" list would include the following:

• Swindon 6-car Intercity DMU: an E&G set (Class 126?), preferably in GSYP;
• Swindon 3-car Cross-country DMU: an Inverness-Aberdeen set (Class120?), ditto;
• Highland Lines BR/Sulzer Type 2 (Class 24/1) from the D5114-D5132 list, in GSYP.

Why, I hear you ask?  Well, that’s because I have (or have planned) the models and want to know if I can legitimately run them on Newton Duns, or whether I need to exercise “modeller’s licence”!

 

If the Swindon DMUs appeared, it would no doubt be on specials or excursions: published pics suggest that the 3-car sets got as far afield as Leven and Oban, anyway.  As for the Type 2, I’ve seen Bruce’s splendid pic of BFYE D5116 at Hawick, but I’d prefer a green one… any help appreciated.

 

Alasdair

 

I don't know if it helps, but:

  > in summer 1968, the 1015 (SO) DMU jumped the points at Waverley and we were directed immediately to a Glasgow set for Hawick

  > in the early 60s, BR ran excursions from the Border towns; on one excursion, the DMU took me to Pitlochry.  I'm afraid that one DMU looks just like another DMU to me, so I've no idea the variety used during the Trades holiday, sorry.

 

I assume you've seen this Newcastle excursion DMU at Hawick (from the late Robin Barbour collection)?

 

A bit off-topic, but there was a question posed a while back - could you travel the whole length of the Waverley Route in the same normal service DMU - yes, it was possible.

 

Bruce

 

[Bill Jamieson]

D6138 was initially allocated to 64A.

This link

http://www.railuk.info/history/gethistory.php?id=609

States that the first ScR allocated NBLs at Kittybrewster and St Margarets operated evening freights to Carlisle and back in crew training. The shortest route for that (Edinburgh/Aberdeen) has to be the Waverley, although Eastfield allocated machines may have worked due South from there too. For D6138 to be actually allocated to St Margarets is a strong suggestion it worked the route.

Evidence for them in Carlisle in those early days is here

http://www.rail-online.co.uk/p463703822/h2B83C0FF#h2b83c0ff

Whilst no photographic evidence has yet emerged on the WR, it's highly likely they worked the route especially just after delivery.

 

Neil

I've now re-read the first link above more closely and I think it's fairly clear that the locos referred to as being used on crew training to Carlisle and back are those which were transferred from the ER to Scotland - ie Eastfield locos - so they would be Glasgow (probably Sighthili) to Carlisle freights.

 

Of course this doesn't answer the question of what duties D6138 might have been covering from St. Margarets. Downendian - how reliable is the source which states that D6138 was actually based at 64A? The BRDatabase site shows it as having been allocated new to 61A in February 1960 with only one move, to 61B, in 1967 - of course one always has to be wary of internet information, but BRDatabase does include a lot of detailed information on works visits by this loco, suggesting the entry is based on official information, although I suppose if it was only on loan for a short period to 64A, this might have been missed.

 

Bill

[Mad McCann]

i do love research projects such as these.

Two opposing theories - NBLs did traffic onto the WR in their early trials or sporadically, or they did not and never travelled the route.

 

There is no substantive evidence yet for either, but I certainly wouldn't stake anything cash wise on the idea they never met WR metals.

 

However I'm intrigued as to why a solitary NBL was allocated to St Margaret's - why was this? Crew training/motive power/route testing for possible use on Canal bound freights? Maybe this idea was scrapped after rather less than splendid reliability was revealed, and the machines settled into their routes familiar to us by period photographs. Theories not fact, but this fact remains, D6138 was a 64A loco for a while. Why was it there? I'd love to know more.

 

Revealing my interest, I've been accused (on another forum I add) of creating a myth that NBLs were routinely on the WR. My comment related to the fact that the forthcoming Dapol 4mm 21/29s would be of great interest to fans of the Scottish railway scene of which I identified them as fans of the Waverley route. Perhaps clumsily worded, but in my view a misrepresentation. I never said NBLs were on the WR, but has prompted me to look and see if they did do so - I've learnt a lot about WR operations including this fine thread in the process. Great stuff, fantastic contributions from aficionados of this route.

 

 

Neil

 

I wouldn't worry about it unduly, Neil. You wouldn't be the first to be unjustly accused and misrepresented by the self-appointed leader of the forum in question. I notice one of the signature post-submission revisions to the OP there has taken place in any case. ;-)

You have, however opened up an interesting vein of research into some of the lesser known ScR movements and Howie's excellent photo of 6123 at Kingmoor generates an interesting sub plot all of its own.

[Downendian]

I've now re-read the first link above more closely and I think it's fairly clear that the locos referred to as being used on crew training to Carlisle and back are those which were transferred from the ER to Scotland - ie Eastfield locos - so they would be Glasgow (probably Sighthili) to Carlisle freights.

 

Of course this doesn't answer the question of what duties D6138 might have been covering from St. Margarets. Downendian - how reliable is the source which states that D6138 was actually based at 64A? The BRDatabase site shows it as having been allocated new to 61A in February 1960 with only one move, to 61B, in 1967 - of course one always has to be wary of internet information, but BRDatabase does include a lot of detailed information on works visits by this loco, suggesting the entry is based on official information, although I suppose if it was only on loan for a short period to 64A, this might have been missed.

 

Bill

Hi Bill

I was citing this link

http://www.railuk.info/history/gethistory.php?id=609

Which states the solitary NBL at St Margarets when the bulk of the fleet were still on the ER. It states that the initial Scottish allocation was only Kittybrewster and the single one at 64A. Of course I can't source or verify the origin of that information which isn't mine. The pic Mad McCann shows of the NBL in 64A may well be that solitary machine during that period.

Neil

[Downendian]

 

 

I wouldn't worry about it unduly, Neil. You wouldn't be the first to be unjustly accused and misrepresented by the self-appointed leader of the forum in question. I notice one of the signature post-submission revisions to the OP there has taken place in any case. ;-)

You have, however opened up an interesting vein of research into some of the lesser known ScR movements and Howie's excellent photo of 6123 at Kingmoor generates an interesting sub plot all of its own.

 

Thanks Mad McCann for the heads up.

Just read those edits , and Ian's revisions are a reasonable reflection on the fact there is no evidence for or against.

 

Neil

[Bill Jamieson]

Hi Bill

I was citing this link

http://www.railuk.info/history/gethistory.php?id=609

Which states the solitary NBL at St Margarets when the bulk of the fleet were still on the ER. It states that the initial Scottish allocation was only Kittybrewster and the single one at 64A. Of course I can't source or verify the origin of that information which isn't mine. The pic Mad McCann shows of the NBL in 64A may well be that solitary machine during that period.

Neil

 

Hi Neil,

I have a contact who is currently working on a book about 64A, so I will ask him if he can shed any light on this subject. 

 

Bill

 

PS The pic from Mad McCann dates from 1966.

[Bill Jamieson]

This is what my contact (Harry Knox) has to say about NBL Type 2s in Edinburgh:-

 

           Re NBL's at 64A, I do not think this can be correct. Diesel electric locomotives (other than class 02 and 08 shunters) were never allocated to St. Margaret's. Haymarket was the centralised D/E locomotive maintenance depot in Edinburgh and all diesels allocated to Edinburgh were located there and supplied  to 64A as train diagrams required. This was to set the precedent when 64A closed (1967) and the men and work were transferred to Millerhill. Millerhill never became a traction depot as such, but continued as a train crew depot and signing-on point and never had an allocation of diesels locomotives either. Any diesels observed at 64A were foreign engines.
 
         I was still at Haymarket in 1960 and  NBL Type 2's were never seen " on shed" although there was a regular running-in/acceptance turn to Edinburgh from the NBL works. Indeed, one of the photos you kindly loaned for inclusion in the book shows an NBL running past the site of 64A and even that was a fairly unusual sight!
 
         I am fairly sure of my information and am positive NBL Type 2's were never allocated to any Edinburgh depots, and certainly not St. Margaret's.
 
        St. Margaret's book is finished and awaiting the publisher. Lightmoor intend to launch it at the Model Rail Exhibition, SECC, Glasgow in 2015,

 

 I'm sure there are a few on this forum who will be in the market for his book when it appears!

 

Bill