fegguk Posted July 22, 2012 Share Posted July 22, 2012 The cost of moving the cables was stated in the Border Telegraph as £2M . Not worth spending to the sake of few 10's of metres. This was enough for Tweedbank Community council to complain that it would generate traffic probelms, ie people other than villagers using the public roads. The council origonally was trying to promote building the line as far as Charlesfield beyond St Bowells. Getting round the new roads between Tweedbank and Newtown would required quite few expensive new structures a small amount of de-housing would also be needed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 An extension to Melrose would be straightforward rather than easy but certainly no more difficult than some of the problems that have had to be overcome eg Edinburgh City Bypass and the Currie Road area of Galashiels. However it was never properly evaluated at the early stages. Once it was decided that the best way of serving the Borders was by extending the Edinburgh Crossrail service, with trains stopping at every lamppost in Midlothian, Melrose was effectively ruled out as it would be impossible to turn a train back within the hour from Waverley, requiring an extra train set to run the service. David Spaven deals with this issue in his forthcoming book. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fegguk Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 An extension to Melrose would be straightforward rather than easy but certainly no more difficult than some of the problems that have had to be overcome eg Edinburgh City Bypass and the Currie Road area of Galashiels. However it was never properly evaluated at the early stages. Once it was decided that the best way of serving the Borders was by extending the Edinburgh Crossrail service, with trains stopping at every lamppost in Midlothian, Melrose was effectively ruled out as it would be impossible to turn a train back within the hour from Waverley, requiring an extra train set to run the service. David Spaven deals with this issue in his forthcoming book. Bill Does this mean that an extension to Hawick would be feasable only if the train could get from Tweed Bank to Hawick and back in under an hour. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 23, 2012 Share Posted July 23, 2012 The problem with Melrose (and a half hourly service stopping everywhere) would be the high proportion of unproductive time, with each terminating train sitting there for about half an hour before returning north - this wouldn't necessarily apply with an extension to Hawick. On the other hand, a 'regional express' type of service to Melrose, perhaps stopping at just two stations in Midlothian, would be able to reach the town in well under an hour and could be operated economically in terms of train units, but this sort of solution was never looked at by the consultants back in 1999 (or whenever it was). Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Once the base route is up and running and seen to be a success I suspect the minds of the planners and operations people will be emboldened somewhat. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Once the base route is up and running and seen to be a success I suspect the minds of the planners and operations people will be emboldened somewhat. Dave. And one might add politicians to that list - they will be crucial, as it's political will that will extend the line further south, not the narrow economic assessment methodologies beloved of the consultants. Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 Once the base route is up and running and seen to be a success I suspect the minds of the planners and operations people will be emboldened somewhat. Dave. This is indeed a good point. I've not seen the latest issue of the proposed pax t/t for the new line, but the last time I checked it was a generic all stations outlook. Extending south would I'm sure open up possibilities for a tiered service of some sort, much as the day-long pattern was up to closure. As Bill has indicated, the emboldening mentioned by Dave may cause some of the alternative service patterns to be looked at in support of an evolving business case to grow patronage and general user-friendliness of the line, with an element of targeted market segregation. Someone shut me up, please, I've been writing too many franchise-related proposals.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fegguk Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 One of the main problems with the business case for the current plan has been that it was always open to accusations that it was founded on guess work as to how many people will use the line. The objectionists have always maintained that no one will use it presumably on the basis that no one is using railways now and people won’t switch modes of transport after it’s built. At least an extension in the future might have some harder facts to base its projections on once people start using the railway I have to say that the propaganda campaign against the railway has been quite effective in muddying the waters. Many people in the Borders do not seem to understand what the railway will do or believe it will actually be built. At least once the diggers arrive the latter issue will be resolved. The former may take longer to sink in. I was speaking to someone from Tweedbank recently who was under the impression that the trains would not stop in Gala or at Waverley Station, where they thought they were going I don’t know. I think one of the problems is that people simply do not believe any politicians today that have a positive message. Negative campaigning has a lot to answer for and is simply more credible than “the vision thingâ€. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I have to say that the propaganda campaign against the railway has been quite effective in muddying the waters. Many people in the Borders do not seem to understand what the railway will do or believe it will actually be built. At least once the diggers arrive the latter issue will be resolved. The former may take longer to sink in. I was speaking to someone from Tweedbank recently who was under the impression that the trains would not stop in Gala or at Waverley Station, where they thought they were going I don’t know. Fascinating this, and reminiscent of pretty widespread transport denial, I've noticed. Some of it is founded in just good old fashioned ignorance, of geography in some cases; more marked perhaps amongst groups that think displaying any sense of whereabouts or direction beyond their present coordinates, is somehow showing-off. I overheard a conversation of these exact dimensions in Wolverhampton last evening regarding the Metro, 'I've no idea where it goes when it goes off the road, I've never used it....,' from users of the parallel bus service. Meanwhile, in Birmingham, the Metro is being extended across the city centre from Snow Hill to New Street. Even my other half displayed woeful ignorance of how it would get from A to B despite the fact that she works adjecent to Snow Hill and knows the city's retail landscape like the back of her hand. A mate who is heavily into class 37s as an end in themselves, couldn't see beyond the end of his nose regarding the strategic impact and consequences of the same project. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 I have to say that the propaganda campaign against the railway has been quite effective in muddying the waters. Many people in the Borders do not seem to understand what the railway will do or believe it will actually be built. At least once the diggers arrive the latter issue will be resolved. The former may take longer to sink in. I was speaking to someone from Tweedbank recently who was under the impression that the trains would not stop in Gala or at Waverley Station, where they thought they were going I don’t know. I've come across people who seriously believed (until put right by me) that it will be necessary to change trains at Newcraighall - I think this probably originated as Borders Party disinformation but it's very difficult to counter this sort of rubbish once it gets a foothold. We've not been helped by a local and national press which has been less than supportive, although the Border Telegraph appears to be much more pro-railway these days (mind you its circulation is hardly huge). Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted July 24, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 24, 2012 What exactly do the doom and gloom mongers have against the railway? Is it a fear of incomers looking for houses away from Edinburgh or even demand for new housing? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 There is still a segment of Border society that has a somewhat feudal mindset, believing themselves to be the landed gentry. It's these people, backed up by NIMBY incomers who seem to fear the increased social mobility and links to the outside world that the new railway will provide. That's the impression I get at least. Those closer to the action might know more. Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fegguk Posted July 24, 2012 Share Posted July 24, 2012 What exactly do the doom and gloom mongers have against the railway? Is it a fear of incomers looking for houses away from Edinburgh or even demand for new housing? The objectionables are lead by the Borders Party who fear development. They don’t want other people’s houses spoiling their view and feel the area around the Eildon Hills is full. Some of them are not exactly local judging by there accents and may have already displaced some of us local peasants. One of the ways in which the council promoted the railway was to suggest new houses would be needed in the Borders in order to fulfil overall demand in the wider SE Scotland Region. The Council gets a developer contribution towards the railway from every house built in the rail corridor~ £1700 each. They allege the council have had to plan several thousand houses as a result. The reality is most of these houses will be built or not built, railway or no railway this in my opinion nullifies the basis of their objection. Their other tack is to say the railway will be an expensive, failure, won’t tackle the Borders transport and economic problems and end up costing the council tax payer more than is stated by the council. They tend to trot out other public sector projects that have gone over budget (The Scottish Parliament on wheels argument) ignoring the likes of the on time and budget Airdie-Bathgate line and other re-openings that have exceeded expectation. If the railway is going to be an economic failure, it won’t cause the feared housing boom, if it succeeds most of their other arguments fail because it will be benefiting the local economy. The councils involved have now handed over the project to transport Scotland and no longer have the feared financial liability. Most objectors can only see car based solutions when it comes to transport and don’t seem to consider that there will be any change in the economics of car ownership in the 21st century, there is no peak oil or economic globalisation in the Borders. They forget that we are being offered a railway. If we say no to the railway we wont get a 3 lane motorway to Gala in its place, instead we will need to get the bus. They tend to forget that the railway will also serve Midlothian and apportion all the cost to the Borders. The Borders party even supports building the line to all the way to Carlisle but not if it just goes to Tweedbank. In this case they seem happy to ignore the costs and most of their other objections at the same time. Some object because the railway will be near their houses, some people have already been de-housed by it. Property values come into play here though there will probably be more winners than losers. I don’t suppose trains will be coming though the cutting near my house in Hawick soon if they do I won’t be lobbing bricks at them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 An excellent summing up by fegguk. The only thing I would add is that the Borders Party has conveniently ignored the fact that housing demand is primarily driven by the economic situation, not transport infrastructure, although the latter obviously affects where what demand that does exist will be directed. The current recession has demonstrated this quite clearly - here in Stow, property is taking years to sell, despite the prospect of the village being on the rail network within three years. Ironically, one of the houses which has been on the market longest belongs to one of two councillors voted in on a Borders Party ticket (although they now refer to themselves as independents). Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Is the Springbank Inn still trading, Bill? I recall there used to be a couple of hostelries on the main drag, but can't see them on Google except the Spring, and that's from a March 2009 camera car flypast.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 Afraid not 'Chard, it hasn't been a pub for at least a year now (not that it was up to much latterly). There's currently a planning application in to convert it into a hairdressing salon and cafe. When we moved to Stow in 1989 there were three pubs/hotels where you could get a drink, now there are none. Going north on the A7 from Galashiels, the first establishment you will encounter nowadays is the Sun Inn under Lothianbridge Viaduct and that's a gastro-pub (but if you're passing at lunchtime the food is excellent and reasonably priced). Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
fegguk Posted July 25, 2012 Share Posted July 25, 2012 I took trip round the new Galshiels inner relief road at the weekend. I must admit I did not feel internally relieved by the experiance. Though it does mean you need to spend less time in Gala. The new retaining wall separating the A7 from the route the trains will follow in 2014 has now been completed. see below Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium skipepsi Posted July 25, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 25, 2012 Thank you for that full and frank set of replies I am now feel much better informed. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Afraid not 'Chard, it hasn't been a pub for at least a year now (not that it was up to much latterly). There's currently a planning application in to convert it into a hairdressing salon and cafe. When we moved to Stow in 1989 there were three pubs/hotels where you could get a drink, now there are none. Going north on the A7 from Galashiels, the first establishment you will encounter nowadays is the Sun Inn under Lothianbridge Viaduct and that's a gastro-pub (but if you're passing at lunchtime the food is excellent and reasonably priced). Bill Whoa! North on the Gala turnpike and the first hostelry is the Sun??? (jings, crivvens, help m'boab etc) That's gotta be the best part of 20 miles. Has even the big rambling forebidding-looking stone place at the dogleg just above Fala disappeared now too EDIT: The Dug Inn? And not a single bar in Newtongrange either? Assuming you leave the new alignment around Middleton and seek out the old road, there must be one? I'm still reeling from the lack of a pub in Stow to be truthful. Many a time I've planned a visit stopping-off there to imagine it was still the summer of '67 or '68. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 You can turn off the A7 and try this place. http://www.coronationrestaurant.co.uk/ Not at all bad from my odd visits. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bill Jamieson Posted July 26, 2012 Share Posted July 26, 2012 Whoa! North on the Gala turnpike and the first hostelry is the Sun??? (jings, crivvens, help m'boab etc) That's gotta be the best part of 20 miles. Has even the big rambling forebidding-looking stone place at the dogleg just above Fala disappeared now too EDIT: The Dug Inn? And not a single bar in Newtongrange either? Assuming you leave the new alignment around Middleton and seek out the old road, there must be one? I'm still reeling from the lack of a pub in Stow to be truthful. Many a time I've planned a visit stopping-off there to imagine it was still the summer of '67 or '68. I was referring to establishments directly on the A7 - I'm sure there must be something in Newtongrange but although I pass through often enough on the bus I never take much notice! Bill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Scottish Modeller Posted July 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 26, 2012 I was referring to establishments directly on the A7 - I'm sure there must be something in Newtongrange but although I pass through often enough on the bus I never take much notice! Bill Hi all, Not much on the A& these days! A couple of places to take a side track are Middleton Gorebridge (Coronation Inn as per Bernards posting) Come off the A7 at Newton Toll on the Bonnyrig road will take you to The Retreat which has a good reputation. Of course - if you are dead posh this road also takes yuou to Dalhousie Castle! Newtongrange has The Dean Tavern but not that I'd go out of my way for it! If it's food - then try The Scottish Mining Museum at Newtongrange If Indian is your choice then Memories of India has a lunchtime menu available and that's literally just on the A7 itself. Yes - you travel all the way from Gala to find the first open establishment ON the A7 is the Sun Inn... Nearer to Edinburgh and just off the A& we know have another couple of establishments for you! At Melville Dykes roundabout we now have Esk Valley Table Table At Dobbies Roundabout we now have the Melville Inn But you are right - it's a long gap between Gala and the Sun Inn! Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted July 27, 2012 Share Posted July 27, 2012 Getting even further OT. Cycling that way some years ago I turned left off the A7 near Bow Farm north of Galashiels and took a lane that went along the west side of the river past Stow and came out onto the A7 again around Heriot House.It must have been this time of year and somewhere around Stow there was a line of cherry trees beside the road. I must have eaten a good few pounds as they provided enough energy to get me to Currie. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium jamie92208 Posted July 27, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted July 27, 2012 Getting even further OT. Cycling that way some years ago I turned left off the A7 near Bow Farm north of Galashiels and took a lane that went along the west side of the river past Stow and came out onto the A7 again around Heriot House.It must have been this time of year and somewhere around Stow there was a line of cherry trees beside the road. I must have eaten a good few pounds as they provided enough energy to get me to Currie. Bernard I did the whole A7 to Carlisle in 1973 as part of a tour. I was coming south from Inverness and stopped at Newtonmore, Perth and Gorebridge, with a short stop at Waverley to see the push pulls. I seem to remember a very long hill soimewhere near Peebles but it was a great ride and I was fit in those days. I do remember seeing the various bits of railway and bridges as I rode but much water has flowed under the bridges since then. Unfortunately i didn't find any cherry trees to give me energy but I did get from Gorebridge to Hawick without stopping on m y trusty Ellis Briggs. Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
'CHARD Posted July 29, 2012 Share Posted July 29, 2012 Speaking of Stow, here's the inevitable before and since pairing: http://www.railbrit....ge.php?id=23801 http://www.railbrit....te.php?id=39744 WRHA has this shot http://waverleyrouteha.wordpress.com/2012/05/19/counting-down-to-trains-may/stow-station-site-looking-north2/ that seems to sum up the reopening for me. This counterpart speaks volumes of the '68 twilight: http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?q=railscot+stow+1968&num=10&hl=en&biw=1366&bih=667&tbm=isch&tbnid=fmD10Rn32blK_M:&imgrefurl=http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/stow/index.shtml&docid=lyq83HmD5d22qM&imgurl=http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/s/stow/stow(rbc12.1968)old3.jpg&w=598&h=440&ei=xAkVULmACNCT0QWbooDgDg&zoom=1&iact=hc&vpx=199&vpy=157&dur=5352&hovh=193&hovw=262&tx=94&ty=216&sig=113440415750134232344&page=1&tbnh=149&tbnw=203&start=0&ndsp=15&ved=1t:429,r:0,s:0,i:73 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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