Customising Locos

[gwrrob]

Just wondering as my retailer informs me my faulty Castle,less than three months old,is no longer under guarentee due to me fitting etched plates and weathering it. I feel a bit p***ed off especially after the long wait for its release.

 

He said you should wait for it to expire before customising.Apparently Hornby will charge to fix it in this 'modified' state.

 

Does anyone know the law on this.

[James]

Maybe contact Hornby direct in this case and see what they say?

 

Oh, and how dare you attempt modelling of your own!

 

Hope you get it sorted

[Jim104]

Wasnt a famous box shifter from Liverpool by any chance, I had a faulty Bachmann 7F which I had lightly weathered and was only weeks old and they refused to replace it cause it had been weathered !

I was not impressed.

[Guest dilbert]

I suppose the problem is due to something related to the chassis/motor... not quite sure how fitting brass etch plates impacts on invalidating the guarantee (unless you super-glued some part of the motion system). I would expect a good dose of pragmatism from the retailer/Hornby in this instance, especially if, as a customer, you have been using this retailer for some period of time.

 

Does fitting a DCC decoder in a 'DCC Ready' loco invalidate a guarantee as well - mainly because you have delved into the innards of the beast and added a chip (and assuming this behaves as is expected) and thereafter a fault appears?...dilbert

[James]

Wasnt a famous box shifter from Liverpool by any chance, I had a faulty Bachmann 7F which I had lightly weathered and was only weeks old and they refused to replace it cause it had been weathered !

I was not impressed.

That's a bit different as Robin seems to want his mending not replacing. Be fair if they replaced the faulty one may be reapired and sold at the Warley free for all, but can't be as you've cahnged its appearance.

 

Had you wanted it mending then I think you should have been able to persue that - but why would you want a replacement after spending hours weathering it?

[smg201]

Hi. I wouldnt worry at all. Just quote the Sale of Goods Act 1979 to Hornby Customber Services (Actually at the retailer as they were wrong to say they would not replace/repair/refund) directly and you should have it replaced/repaired within your warranty. Actually you are, under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, covered for upto 6 years if the quality, fit for purpose or as described when sold is not met. Entitling you to a repare, replacement or refund. Good luck!

 

I had a similar instance with a retailer when i bought some containers. The locking bars broke, they would not replace, so i used the Sale of Good Act at them to get a replacement under the items not being to a satifactory quality.

[billbedford]

Yep, your retailer is correct. The reason is that manufactures will tend to replace models rather than repair them. All your modelling efforts will then have been in vain.

[bertiedog]

If a product is modified in any way it may invalidate the guarantee, that is the law as such, but there is also a reasonable expectation that a modification that does not interfere with the operation of the item will have to be disregarded.

 

A weathered loco should be returned and the maker replace just the faulty parts, and replace your weathered body on to the repaired chassis, but he may charge for the extra work..

 

This should be done under G/tee for the faulty items, but they may reserve the right to charge for the extra un-warranted work in placing your body back into place.

 

It also beggers the question of whether an importer has appropriate facilities to do the work, but the major UK importers do have these facilities, even though made in China.

 

It is not un-reasonable these days to weather locos, some are supplied by the makers, but altering it yourself does open a can of worms,

 

It would be best in future to buy the locos from a shop and specify to them the contract of purchase is for items that will be modified, and it is an essence of the contract.

The shop in all reasonableness can refuse the sale at that point, and it is up to you to accept this with grace and find another supplier who will deal with your needs.

 

Buying and going ahead with weathering without considering the consequences is at your risk as far as preserving or making good any work after the unit is repaired.

But repaired it must be, and returned to you in full working order. Modification alters the rights to a refund, which is not mandatory after both time lapsed and modifications, et al. .

 

But the 6 year rule is the EU law, and you should have no trouble with a major maker in getting these rights, but remember it cuts both ways, you must be far to them, and bear the extra cost your weathering will cause to them to handle the repair.

 

Hope this outlines the situation, not trying to step on others replies, as I had long retail experience with such returns in the optical and camera trade.as well as with the model trade. A reasonable customer has to meet rasonable trade sellers and a bit of give and take is required above the legal rights,

 

Stephen.

[spamcan61]

Hi. I wouldnt worry at all. Just quote the Sale of Goods Act 1979 to Hornby Customber Services (Actually at the retailer as they were wrong to say they would not replace/repair/refund) directly and you should have it replaced/repaired within your warranty. Actually you are, under the Sale of Goods Act 1979, covered for upto 6 years if the quality, fit for purpose or as described when sold is not met. Entitling you to a repare, replacement or refund. Good luck!

 

I had a similar instance with a retailer when i bought some containers. The locking bars broke, they would not replace, so i used the Sale of Good Act at them to get a replacement under the items not being to a satifactory quality.

 

I'm not at all sure SOGA is that straightforward when the item has been modified.

[gwrrob]

Well this has stirred up a Hornets nest.I won't name my retailer as I don't want to cause grief as I've used him for years and he will look at loco for me first.Its not Hattons anyway.I think the fault lies with the tender/loco connection as I can't get the white plug in all the way.

 

If it goes back to Hornby I could get a swap and all the work and expense goes to waste so I'm hoping the retailer can sort it.

 

The fault is definitely not been caused by weathering.I will report back when I get more info.

[bertiedog]

On the question of the DCC Ready locos, yes it is quite fair to open and fit as that is what the maker has offered, it is ready to fit the DCC chip via whatever clips or plugs are provided, and you use the approved chips from the maker. Part of the reason DCC ready are more expensive is to allow for such work involved in examining a faulty unit and chip.

 

Using another maker's chip, or modifying by soldering, or other methods of attachment, say crimped wire sleeves, may indeed invalidate the Guarantee, in terms of making the extra work chargeable. The loco unit itself must work though, and remains under G/tee.

 

However in the case of a DCC ready loco , then another answer exists, simply un-do the plug-in, and return the faulty loco to all intents and purposes as bought.

 

If the chip is still faulty, then return that item as bought separately,

 

In all cases like these it helps to retain all packaging, and the blanking DCC plug that is removed from the loco, so that it can be replaced if returned to the shop.

 

Any half decent DCC supplier shop will understand such issues exist, be fair to them and they will be fair to you, when they are not is the time to worry!

 

Stephen.

[johnd]

Well this has stirred up a Hornets nest.I won't name my retailer as I don't want to cause grief as I've used him for years and he will look at loco for me first.Its not Hattons anyway.I think the fault lies with the tender/loco connection as I can't get the white plug in all the way.

 

If it goes back to Hornby I could get a swap and all the work and expense goes to waste so I'm hoping the retailer can sort it.

 

The fault is definitely not been caused by weathering.I will report back when I get more info.

Hornby have produced a tool for the insertion/removal of the little white plug have you not got yours yet. Should be available from all Hornby retailers or Hornby themselves.

[craigwelsh]

My 31 was P4'd and heavily weathered when parts of it went back directly to Hornby for a new chassis block following the mazak issue. That was no issue and also outside of the warranty period.

 

Hornby themselves should be able to repair it if you write/email them failing a solution from the retailer.

 

To be honest though if it is that silly connect you'd be better off hard wiring or creating a new solution if you want long term reliability anyway!

[MRDBLUE17]

Hi,

 

From the sounds of your fault it does seem to rest with just a smaller component which your dealer might be able to source from Hornby so a repair can be made if not by them you may be able to do this if indeed it is not covered under warrenty. I have only ever had one faulty machine from Hornby just one LED headlight waasn't working. The loco was swapped for me and I had actually only asked Hornby to send me the simple replacement LED on its bit of PCB but they said just take it back and it will be swapped my usual supplier had no issues at all and said Hornby are very good at dealing with any issues like this.

 

From working in retail and having had numerous quotes of the sales of goods act over the years it is actually a very complex law as most actually are and skimming a few lines from these doesn't make someone an expert. I have had several staff who study law and they can't believe the things people say to try and get there way with damaged items who actually know a lot more than most of us do on the subject. The law actually offers retailers a lot of protection and the points raised about the 6 year time scale is applied to larger items (white goods/ tv's etc) that are deemed to be fit for purpose for a certain amount of time and under this the retailer is expected to offer a repair or replacement or a refund may be offered but on a sliding scale to reflect depreciation on those items. This is the main reason why the extended waranties offered on many products that you have to pay for are not always what they are made out to be.

 

Hope you get your problem fixed so you can use your model.

 

Mark

[Jim104]

Wasnt a famous box shifter from Liverpool by any chance, I had a faulty Bachmann 7F which I had lightly weathered and was only weeks old and they refused to replace it cause it had been weathered !

I was not impressed.

 

To add a point of fairness to this debate, Although the supplier would not replace the 7F loco (which had a serious motor problem), I then returned it direct to Bachmann, they without question sorted the problem out, and eventually sent out a brand new replacement, so I had to do the weathering again. No great shakes to do this. It was the principal the the supplier would not replace a defective item just because it had a layer of westhering powder on it that angered me! I would suspect the many other items returned to them have a thicker layer of household dust on them!

[davidw]

I had a Britannia from the Norfolk man train pack. It failed to run properly - I proceeded to weather it. And left it boxed away or a few months durning a move, contacted Hornby who were more than happy to fix it. Didn't charge me either !

[Sam Moss]

I had a problem with the train pack with the schools in and the three Maunsell coaches. Ran round on test fine. I weatehred it and left it for a friend to use on the club layout. Got a phone call a few hours later saying it had derailed. Went to have a look and it was obvious that one ots cranl pins had come loose and ropped out somewhere on the layout. The then loose rod had tem jammd with something else causing the connecting rods on the other side to shear at the fixing point. (Why they have to make them so thin where the crank pin goes through I don't know) I rang Hornby up straight away and after explaining what had happend and going throught the whole "I know its not the controller, other engines still work its certainly a problem with the engine I've mentioned" talk they said they'd send me some new connecting rods. A couple of weeks went by with nothign through the letter box. I rang again and this time taled to a different person. Really helpful and admitted that the person I spoke to the first time was new and didn't fully understand my problem. The second person was more than happy to help and she fully understood the problems I was having. I mentioned what had broke and what would be ideal spares wise. 2 days later I received a jiffy bag with two new wheelsets, a full set of crankpins, complete cylinderblock assembly and new connecting rods free of charge. They even told me that in future to save time don't bother going through the retailer. Upon asking the shop owner where I got it from he also told me the same thing.

[spamcan61]

There's no doubt that going straight to the manufacturer can be less hassle than returning an item to the retailer; BUT it can get complicated; for example if the model is beyond repair and a refund is in order the manufacturer can't do that easily, it would need to be through the retailer. And, like several of us always point out, SOGA is 100% clear that the retailer is who you have a contract with and who you should contact first in the event of a problem. I'm not disputing that in the event of problems with the retailer a manufacturer might well resolve the issue.

[Brinkly]

To add a point of fairness to this debate, Although the supplier would not replace the 7F loco (which had a serious motor problem), I then returned it direct to Bachmann, they without question sorted the problem out, and eventually sent out a brand new replacement, so I had to do the weathering again. No great shakes to do this. It was the principal the the supplier would not replace a defective item just because it had a layer of westhering powder on it that angered me! I would suspect the many other items returned to them have a thicker layer of household dust on them!

 

I had a similar problem a couple of years ago with a Collett Goods, the shop wouldn't take it back, but Bachmann were as good as gold. Replaced the chassis (which had a fault) and I got the original body back, I only know that as I wrote my postcode on the underside of the roof. With a nice note from the engineer who said that the chassis block hadn't been cast properly (the loco had a list to the right and a wobble when pulling) and that he had replaced the chassis. Runs really nicely now, shame I don't have a 00 layout to run it on! Must resolve that issue one day.

 

Regards,

 

Nick.

 

 

 

[gwrrob]

There's no doubt that going straight to the manufacturer can be less hassle than returning an item to the retailer; BUT it can get complicated; for example if the model is beyond repair and a refund is in order the manufacturer can't do that easily, it would need to be through the retailer. And, like several of us always point out, SOGA is 100% clear that the retailer is who you have a contract with and who you should contact first in the event of a problem. I'm not disputing that in the event of problems with the retailer a manufacturer might well resolve the issue.

 

Well I've had a reply from Customer Care at Hornby.I can return it to them complete with copy of receipt and traceability label and they will repair it FOC.However as Spamcan 61 says it would be best to see my retailer first.So I'll go and see him asI need to get a receipt off him anyway as he doesn't issue them at purchase. If he can't fix it I'll post it to Margate.

 

Very pleased with Hornbys response to my email.

[Andrew1974]

It does seem to me that 'modelling' with a 'model' would seem to be perfectly reasonable thing to do, it is in fact the purpose of the product. Modifying the product by, say weathering, is in fact using the product for its intended purpose. Others may disagree but I don't think I have ever seen anywhere were it actually defines what any model manufactures products actual purpose is.

 

On the basis that most manufactures actively support a number of model railway exhibitions, where their products will have been used, modified etc it would be a bit of a stretch that they don't sell then to modellers with the expectation that they will use them for modelling. The challenge would come in deciding at what point the model has been used as intended (maybe light weathering) or changed beyond all recognition (cut and shut projects), I'm sure there is a point between these two extremes where the situation changes, the problem is we would all have a different interpretation of where that point is.

 

 

 

 

 

[darren01]

HI

I have never heard of this before? ,I have a Bachmann 04 that has been weathered and made to look uncared for , I had had this loco for about two months and it stopped running , so I sent it back to Bachmann , who put a new chasse under it and popped the body back on for me , not one quibble .

I also sent me Q1 back to Hornby after it snapped the lub rod off and I can tell you that this loco was heavily weathered, and Hornby fixed it.

So I do not see why your dealer can not send it back to Hornby and get them to fix it, it dos not cost him anything.

 

Do you have the receipt still, if you have by pass the shop and send it back to Hornby, but I would give them a call first just to make sure they can fix it?

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

 

Darren

[gwrrob]

HI

I have never heard of this before? ,I have a Bachmann 04 that has been weathered and made to look uncared for , I had had this loco for about two months and it stopped running , so I sent it back to Bachmann , who put a new chasse under it and popped the body back on for me , not one quibble .

I also sent me Q1 back to Hornby after it snapped the lub rod off and I can tell you that this loco was heavily weathered, and Hornby fixed it.

So I do not see why your dealer can not send it back to Hornby and get them to fix it, it dos not cost him anything.

 

Do you have the receipt still, if you have by pass the shop and send it back to Hornby, but I would give them a call first just to make sure they can fix it?

 

Hope this helps and good luck.

 

Darren

 

My sentiments too Darren.Thats why I've posted it directly to Hornby even without the receipt and they should repair it FOC.I'll post any further happenings.

[gwrrob]

Hornby are advising a repair wait of up to 28 days at the moment.

[gwrrob]

Hornby are advising a repair wait of up to 28 days at the moment.

 

Well I got my repaired loco back today.FOC.All is well again.Had a nice chap call me from the repairs dept to tell me what they'd done and that it had been posted SD.A fantastic service from Hornby considering theres only the two of them in the loco dept.He wouldn't comment on the tender/loco connection being poor though.I certainly won't be put off by my retailer from customising my locos in the future.