Signal box closures

[Gwiwer]

Same buttermilk soap as was supplied in the Mk1 sleeping cars and most train toilets IIRC. Basic, did the job, often left something to be desired including clean fresh smelling hands!

[winterbournecm]

This is an interesting topic. As someone affected - though a few years away - I can concur with the "scrap-heap awaits" attitude with some folk with the job.

 

The industry does have a huge catch up though, it's staggering that in 2012 we have portions of the main line with non track circuited sections, manual points and such like. Perhaps more should have done in the recent past updating in the Cotswolds, Welsh Valleys and Cornwall, then the switch over to ROC's would have been easier.

[The Stationmaster]

This is an interesting topic. As someone affected - though a few years away - I can concur with the "scrap-heap awaits" attitude with some folk with the job.

 

The industry does have a huge catch up though, it's staggering that in 2012 we have portions of the main line with non track circuited sections, manual points and such like. Perhaps more should have done in the recent past updating in the Cotswolds, Welsh Valleys and Cornwall, then the switch over to ROC's would have been easier.

But the simple situation was that in BR time the money did not exist to do jobs like that so although some of them (e.g Cornwall) were planned in reasonable detail very little work could actually be done. And if some of that work had been done, again using Cornwall as an example, there would be an awful more double line to reinstate against recent traffic growth and other changes than has actually been the case. Even more critical jobs such as work at Reading were continually deferred due to lack of money

 

True some opportunities were lost in the Railtrack era as money earmarked for infrastructure work simply haemorrhaged out as so called 'profit' but prior to that I doubt there was nothing left undone in terms of resignalling on the Western that could have been done.

[RELIEF SIGNALMAN]

Buttermilk soap - I can just imagine the smell of work when you mentioned that.

Didn't they have miniature green soap in coaches? Fairy or somat like that.

 

Talking about old stuff - old uniform trousers when it rained it used to make your legs black !! . Much better stuff issued to us nowadays.

 

Alan

[APOLLO]

In a few years time, (or perhaps this year if Iran flares up) when petrol / diesel is £5 / litre or more, passenger trains are bursting at the seams & tickets mega expensive (rationing by price), I can forsee complete, utter chaos on our railways, new signalling schemes or not.

 

We need longer (more) trains for a start. The semaphore signalling between Wigan & Manchester (actually Hindley & Walkden) works quite well, in fog, snow, rain and (rare) hot sun. It's the trains (pacers) that are the bloody nightmare. Other stock ain't alot better either.

 

Don't forget that new signalling will bring about rationalisation, i.e. less trackwork / pointwork / route choices / sidings (for broken down pacers !!!!!) etc etc.

 

You think our railways are a joke now ? - Think again in a couple of years time.

 

Brit15

[Edwin_m]

I think you'll find that that sort of cutting into the bone was more a feature of the 1980s than today.

 

Closure of Leicester PSB prompted me to look up what was being said about it when new (Modern Railways December 1987). Huge amounts of capacity were taken out here, with very little remodelling for higher speeds, and it could have been even worse. For example there was a view that two-aspect signalling was adequate for expected traffic on the Midland Main Line, and rather than sorting out the low-speed layouts of Leicester itself or Market Harborough, speeds here were actually reduced. Today that section is at capacity, some of the track removed then has been put back and there is talk of reinstating much more. Most of the 1987 legacy remains, though now controlled from Derby rather than Leicester, and major improvement will have to wait until the trackside equipment is replaced.

 

Leicester was trumpeted as the first business-led resignalling, and to me represents the nadir of BR-era rationalisation.

 

Compare with the resignalling of the same route further north in recent years. Remaining goods lines have been upgraded for passengers, with extra platforms at Loughborough and Chesterfield so they can still be served when the main lines are closed for engineering work. Trent Junction has been remodelled to increases capacity and Nottingham will get an extra platform and provision for another one, so that it can handle more trains than under the previous resignalling in the 60s. There is even talk of replacing the Victorian layout at Derby to allow much higher speeds, so even though there may be less track, capacity is the same or greater because trains spend less time passing over the critical junctions. This is what happened nearly 20 years ago at York and Newcastle, where the tide had probably started to turn after the low point of Leicester.

 

Incidentally the signaling on the Atherton line may be reliable but the formerly huge number of signal boxes has been reduced over the years to two or three, so there is little scope to run extra trains without spending a lot of money.

[KevinWalsh]

 

We need longer (more) trains for a start.

 

 

Stepping slightly OT here, in some areas this just isn't possible. Using the Brighton Mainline as an example, this major route is nearly at 100% capacity now with no options of running longer or more trains due to the complete lack of space to expand the infrastructure and no more paths available; and yet the obvious solution (BML2 http://www.bml2.co.uk/ ) is constantly being ignored or shotdown by local authorities.

 

(Hat and coat on, departing apologising for going OT)

[Edwin_m]

Not OT at all, there is a limit to the capacity that can be gained by adding extra signals. Even an ERTMS level 3 type system doesn't deliver as much as you first expect, unless all trains have the same stopping pattern or stations have long platform loops as in Japan, so trains can leave and rejoin the main line at near line speed. And of course this needs trains to be timed (and to run) to the second not just the half-minute!

[simonhaynes72]

Have there been economic forecasts of how much money this would save in the long term? I doubt it will actually add up, particularly here in Cornwall. Especially as mentioned before with increases in XC ticket prices over long distance and the Cornish economy being the least productive in England and Wales. It might add up from London, but the local picture is maybe different?

I suppose this will mean long term signalling plans for preservation lines can be more than covered? Just planning, retrieving and storing to deal with?

Simon

[Gwiwer]

Is the traditional semaphore in fact as doomed as might be suggested? Control of signalling can be centralised but all it takes now is an electronic command to "drop the board" and the cost of installing traffic lights at St. Erth and other locations might be avoided.

 

Whether the decision to centralise signalling to such an extent is wise s another debate altogether. With cable theft at an all-time high, every single minute of delay attributed somehow to someone and the potential for around 10% of the entire national rail network to be brought to a halt by one major event such as a fire I question whether this whole scheme isn't an economy too far.

[beast66606]

Is the traditional semaphore in fact as doomed as might be suggested? Control of signalling can be centralised but all it takes now is an electronic command to "drop the board" and the cost of installing traffic lights at St. Erth and other locations might be avoided.

 

Yes but then the feedback of the trains position also needs to be done otherwise it will stay dropped.

[Oldddudders]

Yes but then the feedback of the trains position also needs to be done otherwise it will stay dropped.

True - and whether that be by Track Circuit or Axle Counter, the feedback to the interlocking is just as safety-critical, and can only be undertaken in specified ways, although I do wonder whether RETB systems have any proven technology to offer, perhaps. Perhaps Rick is contemplating a return of the "puff & dart" pneumatics of the SW main line!

[ess1uk]

Were any boxes due to close over the festive period this year?

Got a feeling London Bridge was mentioned ?

[Rail Announcement]

Were any boxes due to close over the festive period this year?

Got a feeling London Bridge was mentioned ?

 

Watford Junction.

[ess1uk]

Watford Junction.

Thanks

That going to Wembley or Rugby?

[Rail Announcement]

Thanks

That going to Wembley or Rugby?

 

Wembley.

 

The new Rugby ROC will see its first signallers in August, when Stafford 4 and 5 close.

[WessexEclectic]

Not OT at all, there is a limit to the capacity that can be gained by adding extra signals. Even an ERTMS level 3 type system doesn't deliver as much as you first expect, unless all trains have the same stopping pattern or stations have long platform loops as in Japan, so trains can leave and rejoin the main line at near line speed. And of course this needs trains to be timed (and to run) to the second not just the half-minute!

Has anybody read this opinion?

 

Will ERTMS give us more capacity?

[Rail Announcement]

Picture of Watford Junction signal box.

 

http://railpicturelibrary.zenfolio.com/p1031562028/h273968fb#h273968fb

[david.hill64]

True - and whether that be by Track Circuit or Axle Counter, the feedback to the interlocking is just as safety-critical, and can only be undertaken in specified ways, although I do wonder whether RETB systems have any proven technology to offer, perhaps. Perhaps Rick is contemplating a return of the "puff & dart" pneumatics of the SW main line!

Modern Communications Based Train Control signalling systems actually have the option of doing away with track circuits or axle counters altogether (except in depots). Trans continually transmit their precise location to the interlocking. If the communication is lost the interlocking will not allow another train to be signalled into the section until the missing train is rediscovered. Bangkok Skytrain has no secondary detection on the main line at all. Doing away with track circuits is a big cost saver and reliability improver.

[beast66606]

Were any boxes due to close over the festive period this year?

Got a feeling London Bridge was mentioned ?

 

I'm not sure LB is closing completely, some of the panels are going to the LB ROC but I think the old box retains some control.

[ess1uk]

London Bridge box is in the way for new tracks.

There is new equipment going in under the arches to replace the box and the signallers will work from Three Bridges ROC, not sure when this happens though.

[LNERGE]

Balne box closes this weekend. The means of demolition was delivered earlier today and stands by like the grim reaper..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/17039132277/

[Gilloverland]

Balne box closes this weekend. The means of demolition was delivered earlier today and stands by like the grim reaper..

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/32297024@N08/17039132277/

From what I hear the locals are planning a demonstration at 1000 on Saturday as the new 'tic-tacs' aren't working and the road will stay shut for another week!

[LNERGE]

I have to say i'm not surprised. I was harangued by a man in a yellow submarine yesterday.

[LNERGE]

Just in case anyone thinks i've done too many 12 hour shifts...