Signal box closures

[lmsforever]

Just read that NR are goimg to close 800 signal boxes on the network so perhaps we should start recording as many old pre nationalisation before they are gone,The Norwich Ely route seems to be the first although the replacement signaling system sounds an interesting one.

[beast66606]

Just read that NR are goimg to close 800 signal boxes on the network so perhaps we should start recording as many old pre nationalisation before they are gone,The Norwich Ely route seems to be the first although the replacement signaling system sounds an interesting one.

 

I wonder if 800 signal boxes still exist ...

 

Norwich/Ely = Modular replacement

[Edwin_m]

Crewe-Shrewsbury is another modular signalling scheme.

 

In recent years there hasn't been much effort put towards replacing absolute block signalling. The labour savings of reducing the number of signallers haven't justified the very high capital cost of new signalling, and there has been a feeling that new technology just over the horizon will offer much cheaper solutions so there is no point in doing anything now.

 

This may now have materialised in the form of modular signalling, which if it does what it claims to do will more than halve the costs of re-signalling and thereby make it worthwhile to abolish large numbers of the surviving traditional signalboxes.

[PaulRhB]

Well Gillingham, Templecombe, Sherborne Crossing, Yeovil Jcn, Chard, Honiton and Feniton Crossing all go next March and are being replaced by a NX panel in Basingstoke.

It's planned to have around 12 boxes for the whole country within 20 years.

Dorset Coast, Poole to Wool (at present Dorchester & Yeovil Pen Mill are safe due to the cost of replacing the token system).

Big announcements in July on the timescales for all panels to go into the so called Cathedral Boxes.

[Gwiwer]

And when a problem occurs in one of these "cathedrals" how many trains will be delayed and by how many minutes? Compared with a typical failure in a manual 'box which might affect one or two trains briefly. Progress?

[Fay Singpoint]

And when a problem occurs in one of these "cathedrals" how many trains will be delayed and by how many minutes? Compared with a typical failure in a manual 'box which might affect one or two trains briefly. Progress?

Given the systems architecture of these new "cathedrals" the delays will probably be less..

 

 

 

F

[Oldddudders]

In BR days the limiting factor in resignalling the network was resources - competent persons capable of actually designing the detail were few in number across the planet, let alone the BR Design Offices. Westinghouse and GEC (GASL by then) were equally desperate and known to have sandwich-board men outside key BR offices to recruit. One might hope that 20 years on this is no longer a constraint, but the competent persons still do not grow on trees, and I bet there is some margin between what NR thinks it can afford, and what suppliers can deliver. I'd love to be proved wrong, although I also grieve for the closed boxes.

[The Stationmaster]

And when a problem occurs in one of these "cathedrals" how many trains will be delayed and by how many minutes? Compared with a typical failure in a manual 'box which might affect one or two trains briefly. Progress?

 

Unless there is going to be some sort of 'giant leap forward' in contemporary centralised signalling technology and how it responds to failure conditions (various) recent events have proved you absolutely right. In two cases (Cardiff and York) relatively simple basic failures have put large areas of signalling out of action completely - no question of 'old' fall backs like 'through routes', more a question of 'no routes'. Similar failures - although not having such geographically extensive areas - have occurred in that nice shiny new building at Didcot and have attracted the attention of HMRI while it is reputed that the action of a 'technician' of some kind at Didcot 'interfering' with a computer card resulted in a (right side) failure of ERTMS interlocking on the Cambrian line

 

The situation seems to be that computer practices - such as changing cards - are being introduced to British signal engineering in an uncontrolled manner and without proper Rule Book led safety controls. I'm not implying this threatens train movement safety of itself but downstream consequences can - from existing example - clearly lead to massive delays and might have wider implications due to the very limited numbers of staff, particularly experienced staff, able to put into place alternatives.

 

PS Some people have already long been underway recording all current signalboxes while others of us started on recording vanishing signals about 50years ago and have also recorded the replacement of the signals which replaced the ones which were replaced 50 years ago - if you see what I mean

 

PPS Looking at Ian's point the situation is that many engineers were 'privatised' when BR went but then lost their jobs when the various private firms either amalgamated or pulled out of the signalling business because there wasn't any business Some have kept going and indeed the signal engineering company which I had worked for after leaving 'the railway' was sold back to Network Rail some years ago - taking with it several part time staff who were well past normal retirement age in addition to the fulltimers; they have had enough work recently on mechanical locking jobs to keep two people fairly busy Incidentally while still in private hands they 'imported' design staff from Hong Kong, South Africa and Thailand due to lack of staff here and their parent group was running an engineering graduate training course as well.

[PaulRhB]

I don't think the issue is with the Cathedrals systems but it's connection to remote locations and lack of local knowledge hindering recovery from incidents. The Mobile Ops guys are going to become even more key asset to assist the Signallers with that where as at present the Signaller already has that knowledge. I don't object to big Panels but I think a few more might be an advantage and i know how key a panel box can be in recovering things when it goes wrong. If you have the cooperation and controls blessing you can really move things along much faster when you know everyone at the key point and there is truly cross company cooperation. It still happens regularly and is best when the public barely notice

[The Stationmaster]

I don't think the issue is with the Cathedrals systems but it's connection to remote locations and lack of local knowledge hindering recovery from incidents. The Mobile Ops guys are going to become even more key asset to assist the Signallers with that where as at present the Signaller already has that knowledge.

 

I can remember when we had that (and so, no doubt, can one or two others on here) - the era when most Signalmen in large area panel 'boxes knew exactly where most of their signals were and certainly when all the Reliefmen and Inspectorate etc very definitely knew, and knew how to get to them - quickly. Part of the problem today is that many of those older style posts have been eliminated and there has been a lot of recruitment direct from the street into posts such as MOMs and even local signalling managers or above. And of course - because there has frequently been no alternative - staff have been recruited directly into the modern large area signalling centres with, in consequence, little or no knowledge of relating what they control to what is out there on the ground. All of that is, i'm afraid, a consequence of the way the organisation of the railway has changed and continuing financial pressure on the operational 'front end' of NR where it meets its customers. To be honest I'm not sure what the answer is although it does, I think, need some changes to regain both the missing local knowledge and - possibly even more importantly - the matter of staff initiative when dealing with incidents.

[Fay Singpoint]

One might hope that 20 years on this is no longer a constraint, but the competent persons still do not grow on trees, and I bet there is some margin between what NR thinks it can afford, and what suppliers can deliver. I'd love to be proved wrong.

In the run-up to privatisation training was the first to be cut. Then we had the incentives to take early retirement as the private companies looked at overheads rather than the order book. Couple this with the "feast and famine" investment plans of Railtrack and then Network Rail so 20 years on the constraints are still there.

 

On the plus side, I will have more than enough work to keep me going until retirement

 

F

[Oldddudders]

In the run-up to privatisation training was the first to be cut. Then we had the incentives to take early retirement as the private companies looked at overheads rather than the order book. Couple this with the "feast and famine" investment plans of Railtrack and then Network Rail so 20 years on the constraints are still there.

 

On the plus side, I will have more than enough work to keep me going until retirement

 

F

Glad for you, sorry for the industry. A chap called Brian Hesketh, on behalf of DS&TE, had undertaken measurement of the precise resource pool when I was at NSE HQ in 1989/90, and he was liaising with the Cross-Sector Business Resources Forum on setting priorities. I think there was a move to create a second drawing office in Birmingham. ISTR Brian thought there were about 900 qualified signal engineers (of the appropriate sort) worldwide, which doesn't sound like a lot.

 

As far as what do we do when it falls off its perch, I have no doubt the belt-and-braces backup I encountered at London Bridge in the mid-70s is now regarded as an unaffordable luxury. There was a thing called Override, which was supposed to automate an interlocking - e.g. Charing X station - if the supervisory circuits dropped out. Then we had emergency panels at key locations like Parks Bridge Junction, where a member of staff could set routes under telephonic supervision. I assume the bean-counters will have chopped these out years ago!

[caradoc]

Emergency Panels in Relay Rooms, and Override systems (which set routes for the main lines only and allow trains to keep running, albeit minus branches and loops) are still available, and are still used by the dedicated and competent Network Rail staff involved in signalling and operations (we haven't quite become extinct yet !). However, the most common cause of widespread signalling failures nowadays seems to be theft of signalling power cables, for which Emergency Panels and Overrides are no use.

 

Network Rail does need to rethink its signalling strategy, and build in back up systems to prevent, or at least mitigate, the massive disruption caused by signalling failures. However, the efficiency of centralised power signalling, compared to manual signalling, is undeniable; The Glasgow & South Western route from Kilmarnock to Gretna Jc, for example, is currently controlled by 8 signalboxes: One signaller in a panel box could control this route without any problem.

[Edwin_m]

The current crop of computerised technologies should be rather less prone to cable theft than the previous generations of large relay-based schemes, as they had to have a wire all the way from the nearest interlocking to each piece of equipment. Most computer based interlockings have a single wire that carries data to/from a range of equipment, which not only means fewer cores to re-splice and test if one is stolen but can also have a backup which takes a different route.

[Rugd1022]

I can remember when we had that (and so, no doubt, can one or two others on here) - the era when most Signalmen in large area panel 'boxes knew exactly where most of their signals were and certainly when all the Reliefmen and Inspectorate etc very definitely knew, and knew how to get to them - quickly. Part of the problem today is that many of those older style posts have been eliminated and there has been a lot of recruitment direct from the street into posts such as MOMs and even local signalling managers or above. And of course - because there has frequently been no alternative - staff have been recruited directly into the modern large area signalling centres with, in consequence, little or no knowledge of relating what they control to what is out there on the ground. All of that is, i'm afraid, a consequence of the way the organisation of the railway has changed and continuing financial pressure on the operational 'front end' of NR where it meets its customers. To be honest I'm not sure what the answer is although it does, I think, need some changes to regain both the missing local knowledge and - possibly even more importantly - the matter of staff initiative when dealing with incidents.

 

 

 

Signallers having regular cabrides out on 'their' patch would be a good place to start Mike, although the idea has it's own problems, such as having an Inspector available to accompany them on such jaunts (when they're not too busy assessing us drivers and and doing reams of paperwork).

 

 

[ess1uk]

The current crop of computerised technologies should be rather less prone to cable theft than the previous generations of large relay-based schemes, as they had to have a wire all the way from the nearest interlocking to each piece of equipment. Most computer based interlockings have a single wire that carries data to/from a range of equipment, which not only means fewer cores to re-splice and test if one is stolen but can also have a backup which takes a different route.

 

 

and some SSI are now carried on the FTN over SDH on fibre, so unless you get really unlucky and have a break in 2 fibres there is a diverse route and they should still work

[ess1uk]

and most signal boxes i visit these days tell me they are closing very soon

[The Stationmaster]

and most signal boxes i visit these days tell me they are closing very soon

 

and most signal boxes i visit these days tell me they are closing very soon

I do wonder if NR has shot itself in the foot over the announcement of its signalling centralisation plans - especially as a lot of it is not funded and the technical situation is not yet proved. It used ti be quite common that as large scale resignallings advanced staff began to look elsewhere for jobs, sometimes leaving serious vacancy problems before the new signalling came in. While many folk are taking a philosophical (or cynical) attitude to being told their signalbox will be closing in X years time some are also going into near panic mode at the treat of impending redundancy - even if it is 10 years away.

 

And it is those of the latter mindset who are likely, not unnaturally, to start looking elsewhere for jobs at the first opportunity. While the economic situation might keep folk in their railway job this might well have changed in 5 years time and the railway will be back to folk drifting away and leaving large vacancy gaps. Only time will tell and it is a good idea to keep staff informed but I do wonder about potential side-effects?

[ess1uk]

There are a few who want to go, many who don't

Local knowledge lost

[Captain Kernow]

and most signal boxes i visit these days tell me they are closing very soon

Presumably the painters were just leaving as you arrived?...

[ess1uk]

Funny you should say that...........

[Gwiwer]

Can we expect used lever rags to fetch astonishing amounts on Ebay?

[PaulRhB]

It used to be quite common that as large scale resignallings advanced staff began to look elsewhere for jobs, sometimes leaving serious vacancy problems before the new signalling came in.

It's a good point Mike but I'm very glad they have done it this way as so many rely on both partners working that large geographical moves mean time is very important to find new jobs.

Problem is that in years gone by they didn't need so much warning as they knew a lot could move or be displaced locally to other jobs within the industry. With the whole industry slimming down there just aren't the opportunites so staff are forced to look outside. With the paucity of jobs outside too I think it is commendable to take that risk to give the staff some chance to move into another job without the stress of unemployment eating up their savings.

Signalling staff especially are in a quandry as they have a lot of responsibility and are paid for it but those skills aren't transferable to any other company so they tend to be dropping into lower paid jobs with all the consequential financial challenges. With the current WoE line recontrol I know several are relying on the redundancy to pay off morgages so they can cope with lower paid jobs as they can't move the long distance to the new centre as it would mean partners jobs going too.

[The Stationmaster]

Can we expect used lever rags to fetch astonishing amounts on Ebay?

I happen to have a couple of proper lever dusters stashed away somewhere (plus several 'sponge cloths' which those with footplate experience might possibly remember for their total lack of any sort of sponge capability apart from anything else).

[Debs.]

I happen to have a couple of proper lever dusters stashed away somewhere

 

What about the B.R issue 'Buttermilk' soap and some Bardic batteries?