BernardTPM Posted June 9, 2012 Share Posted June 9, 2012 The top view of the AL6 shows how much squarer the ends of the cab were very nicely. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Some more 85 snaps..... 85 017 after arriving at Northampton on a Cobbler. http://www.leightonlogs.org/13098485017b07.jpg nice close up profile shot of 85 025 still with headcode box and possibly sans pantograph. Both sides of the Class 85 on view side by side at Carlisle Lovely shot of 85 027 fresh out of the works. Despite the outshop note no orange cant rail stripe at this time in 1977 so either it was applied shortly after or not applied at all until the 1980s. Ready to roar up Camden Bank....note the strange yellow patch job on the front lower left side. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartb Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Still no sign of the other 2 AL5's but I phoned a well known box shifter and they hope (!) they may be in by the weekend. We will see. ( Yes I know I'm getting impatient) John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 11, 2012 Author Share Posted June 11, 2012 me too looking forward to it,and shots like this are keeping the interest up http://www.railbrit.co.uk/imageenlarge/imagecomplete.php?id=28890 AL5 no E3059 stands alongside class AL1 no E3009 on Allerton shed, Liverpool, in April 1962 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClikC Posted June 11, 2012 Share Posted June 11, 2012 Hi All Picked up a copy REX today while in a well known book and magizine outlet. Glad I did, the review was enough to wake me from my modeling hibernation! Hi All Bachmann 85 and a heavily rebuilt trix 81. There must be something likt 50 years between these 2 models. I have all the 85s and 81s I need for the layout but converting an 85 shouldn't be all that difficult really. Who's going to be first to have a go? Cheers Jim Challenge accepted! Regards Matty / ClikC 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Hi matt I wondered where you had been! Welcome back Jim 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Not quite as quick off the mark as some of the other guys here with their 85s but here is a bit of progress with mine - sans catenary! Its still a WIP as you can see from the masking tape on the windows, unweathered bodysides and buffer beams but its coming along. I am awaiting delivery of a new airbrush to complete. Also weathered some of my Mk1 stock too and these are shown in the photos. I really like the idea of using the supplied screw links as these are long enough to work without fouling on my layout and it helps that the buffers on the coaches at each end of my rakes are fitted with sprung rather than fixed type buffers. This is much better than having locos running about with a tension lock on one end and nothing on the other or a kadee. The plan is also to have a dabble with fixing up some brake pipes fitted with magnets between this 85 and a Mk1 - if successful I will roll it out to all my locos and coaches (on the ends of rakes) as this will be the icing on the cake. It will be more fiddly than conventional coupling options but at leats it will look the part and make coupling/uncoupling a real time experience. I cant stand exhibitors who shunt or run around in seconds with locos at full speed in a small yard - not very authentic at all. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClikC Posted June 12, 2012 Share Posted June 12, 2012 Hi matt I wondered where you had been! Welcome back Jim Hi Jim It's good to be back! Regards Matt / ClikC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Question - Why bother about all the nitty gritty details on a loco (eg fitting the supplied screw link couplings, air pipes, size of cab numbers, etc.) when, looking at the photos of various layouts and model AC electrics there is no catenary? It is like the Hans Christian Anderson fairy tale of the 'Emperor's New Clothes' where instead of the crowd exclaiming 'He has no clothes on!' we should say 'There is no catenary'! Surely, the first thing you have when intending to run AC electrics is the catenary and secondly the actual AC loco? To produce acceptable BR style catenary must be quite easy by adapting something like the Somerfeldt system. First you have to decide if you want recognisable/representative BR style catenary for scale speed WCML running with pantograph in contact with the wire to get the pantograph 'bounce' or authentic BR super detailed catenary as per 'Birmingham New Street' layout which would probably not be substantial enough for 100mph running but is perfect for a large station layout. I fitted portable catenary (easy to remove for proper track cleaning/repairs to track) to my 00 gauge layout 'Crewlisle' 25 years ago using modified Hadley JV masts and multi track portal frames to represent early WCML OH catenary. Some of you may have seen Crewlisle at the NEC in 2009 and Alexandra Palace in 2011. AC electrics and the APT run at scale speeds of 100mph with no problems. Because the catenary is in the middle of the layout, sprayed with grey primer, it looks like the real thing and blends in perfectly with the railway scene. It only has the actual catenary wire but no other details such as the earth wire carried between masts. Viewed from about 1M it looks like the real thing. Two things to remember, you can modify continental style masts and multi track frames into BR styles, including wire headspans. However, the only time you can probably use their catenary is if your layout is just straight or large radius curves. All my catenary is scratchbuilt from 22 gauge high tensile steel wire so that if the catenary gets caught in the pantograph, it just bends and springs back - no kinks in wire! And the important thing to remember is the wire must be straight between masts. That is why the catenary wire must be made to fit the unique layout of your track and radius of curves. No cheating by bending to the curves as I have seen at some exhibitions! Edited June 13, 2012 by Crewlisle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
forest2807 Posted June 13, 2012 Share Posted June 13, 2012 (edited) Firstly, respect to you for fitting OHLE equipment to your layout. Unfortunately I haven't had the privilege of seeing it but your description conjures up wonderful images in my head. I think you are being a little harsh here although I agree more layouts with OHLE would be right up my street, but what about those occasions when AC electrics were dragged 'dead' by diesel locos on diversionary routes with no OHLE? On many people's layouts these scenes are being created and diesel locos dragging electrics is easy to model, and highly prototypical without the need for catenary. This could easily be the justification for some people having one or more electric locos on the layout, certainly after the release of Bachmann's 85 which at this early stage appears to have been a 'gamechanger' and may well (I hope) be the first of many AC models to be released. Also, many people may have been impressed by the 85, bought the model and perhaps now intend to 'electrify' the route. Not all layouts you see here are complete, works-in-progress abound and catenary may now be the next project for some people who have bought the model. Edited June 14, 2012 by forest2807 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Dagworth Posted June 13, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted June 13, 2012 Question - Why bother about all the nitty gritty details on a loco (eg fitting the supplied screw link couplings, air pipes, size of cab numbers, etc.) when, looking at the photos of various layouts and model AC electrics there is no catenary? Plenty of knitting on Ravensclyffe, as you can see in my layout thread http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/3288-ravensclyffe/ and also will be able to see in person at Members Day... (it's not finished yet and will be coming again as a work in progress, though quite a lot of progress since it was last seen) Andi Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) The sketch in Fawlty Towers (Waldorf Salad) when the brusque yank Mr Robinson says to Basil "shall we go to bed now, would that make it easier for you?" springs to mind here. Many layouts on this forum will undoubtedly be works in progress (like my own Muir Bank shown above) and not exhibition layouts being judged for every accuracy or inaccuracy. Even more so when the photos are not really for any competition. Its usually quite clear what the situation is and requires no further explanation (usually!). One of the key "Do"'s when building a layout based on an overhead electrified railway is to finish your lineside scenic work and ballasting BEFORE installing masts and catenary - its one of the little golden rules I have been sticking to as ballasting or tackling other scenic work around catenary would be tricky and it goes without saying you risk damaging the OHLE with it in situ first. Seems some folk would prefer us to refrain from purchasing any AC electric models until the catenary had been made and erected What before I've bought any baseboards? Edited June 14, 2012 by ThaneofFife Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Surely, the first thing you have when intending to run AC electrics is the catenary and secondly the actual AC loco? To produce acceptable BR style catenary must be quite easy by adapting something like the Somerfeldt system. First you have to decide if you want recognisable/representative BR style catenary for scale speed WCML running with pantograph in contact with the wire to get the pantograph 'bounce' or authentic BR super detailed catenary as per 'Birmingham New Street' layout which would probably not be substantial enough for 100mph running but is perfect for a large station layout Hi Actually its the last thing you build - because once the OLE is in you cant get to the track you need to be confident that the track is reliable. With something like 7 scale miles of track on the scenic section of new street and the equivalent to build in overhead its going to be a long, long time before I am in position to start building it. My Overhead uses a brass coated steel wire (intended for cutting sheet steel under high tension) and once tensioned is pretty rigid as a system. It will not have any problem with high speed running and while the max line speed on new street is 30mph (the curve at the london end is about 10ft radius and anything over 30mph would be out of scale! In fact its only just big enough to not need checkrails. After all 100 scale mph on a 3 foot curve is nothing like scale speed!) we will be using the same methods and components on Tring which will feature scale 100mph running (push pull in P4 ) You have also identified my pet hate with model OLE - pantograph bounce! Anyone who has ever looked at the real thing will know that the pantograph does not bounce - it stays at a very controlled height only rising for level crossings and dropping for bridges. Any movement between the pan head and the loco roof is actually the result of the loco body moving on its suspension and not the pantograph moving. If your model pantograph rises between masts then its wrong, its as simple as that. Cheers Jim Edited June 14, 2012 by jim s-w 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 My 85 lives almost permanently coupled to a class 45/1 with its pantograph down on 'diversions away from the wires'. Looks fine to me. The only difficulty was getting the pantograph to stay down. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RBE Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Indeed Jim I can rattle my locos through Outon Road at a scale 100mph if I wish. Not very prototypical for the spot mind. As long as the wire is stiff enough and employs enough tension theres no need to fatten the wires for speed. I intend to build my new layout catenery in pretty much the same way and that too will feature full speed push pull lovelyness! Cav Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon H Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Sadly, the numbers of modellers who take the trouble to construct/adapt/scratchbuild UK style OHLE to the extent of producing actual usable wires remains so low that I suspect this thread contains contributions from them all - certainly all those that I know of, and I started in the field myself over 30 years ago. Perhaps things will start to change with the introduction of the 85 - but then our group had the same thoughts when Hornby introduced the 86 and nothing further came of that for a very long while. I will only believe the corner has been turned when I see a few 1st/2nd generation AC EMUs being produced - not just fashionable 'cash-ins' like the Javelin. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 What jim says is very valid. In real life every effort is made to ensure that the pan runs dead level, and where a height change is required the transition is as smooth as possible. Although in practice the pan can bounce slightly, we are talking just a feww mm in real life which would be imperceptable on the model. Here is an interesting video of a pendolino pan at speed, shows how the wire sweeps from side to side, changing from one wire to another, up and down for bridges etc. 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThaneofFife Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Pantographs do not bounce at all - to my mind the term bounce constitutes the carbon contact strips leaving the wire and then returning back onto it and of course that just doesnt happen - if they did they would be sparking a lot more than we used to see them and it would possibly interfere with all manner of on train functions. The upward tension the pan places on the contact wire does give a very slight amount of give in the wire over longer stretches between masts and the pan would accommodate this slack but Jim is right about the movement in the pan mainly being down to the locomotives up and down suspension movement or indeed track alignment. The pans wouldnt last 5 minutes if they were bouncing on and off the wire at a constant 100mph. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Delamar Posted June 14, 2012 Author Share Posted June 14, 2012 I wont be doing any overhead, just to be dragged. might even take the motor out of mine, use it in something else. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60026to Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Guilty as charged regarding leckies with no overhead wires etc. I just bought it because I really like it although I have now managed to get a 6 coach rake of Mk1s (they even have the M prefix) so at least I'm trying, sort of . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Titan Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 Pantographs do not bounce at all - to my mind the term bounce constitutes the carbon contact strips leaving the wire and then returning back onto it and of course that just doesnt happen - if they did they would be sparking a lot more than we used to see them and it would possibly interfere with all manner of on train functions. The upward tension the pan places on the contact wire does give a very slight amount of give in the wire over longer stretches between masts and the pan would accommodate this slack but Jim is right about the movement in the pan mainly being down to the locomotives up and down suspension movement or indeed track alignment. The pans wouldnt last 5 minutes if they were bouncing on and off the wire at a constant 100mph. Just to be clear - in the context we are discussing we are not talking about loss of contact - more of an up and down movement between masts on the model which if run fast on the typically short spans used, can give a sort of bouncing along look, which in real life does not happen. Incedentally - the contact wire on the real thing is installed with the midpoint between masts up to 30mm lower than the ends to counter for the extra 'give' ie if level contact wire the pan would rise by up to 30mm in the middle. Make the middle bit 30mm lower and in theory the pan remains level as it travels along pushing the wire up - A lot of thought goes into making it run as smooth as possible! 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
northendboy Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 What jim says is very valid. In real life every effort is made to ensure that the pan runs dead level, and where a height change is required the transition is as smooth as possible. Although in practice the pan can bounce slightly, we are talking just a feww mm in real life which would be imperceptable on the model. Here is an interesting video of a pendolino pan at speed, shows how the wire sweeps from side to side, changing from one wire to another, up and down for bridges etc. Blimey! That's absolutely mesmerising... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crewlisle Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) Perhaps I used the wrong terminology when I referred to pantograph 'bounce'. What I should have said was that the pantograph could move up or down depending on the height of the contact wire, eg going under bridges or entering/leaving a tunnel. May I advise anyone contemplating doing OHLE, think very carefully about making it permanent, ie soldering all the wires. You can be sure that if you have a track or nearby lineside problem, it will happen under your most complex bit of OHLE! I totally agree that all track, ballasting and nearby track features should be complete before installing OHLE. 'Crewlisle' had been in progress for about 15 years and the only reason I even considered OHLE was when Lima bought out their Class 87 and my son wanted one. You will have to weigh up how accurate you want it to be and have a trade off of prototypical installation against how far it is from any viewers. As I said before, mine is viewed from about 1M. Even though it is very basic, it took quite a few hours to measure where the masts should be positioned, modify the masts/portal frames and construct the catenary but looks OK when viewed from that distance. The end result was worthwhile and it has stood the test of time, all of it being removed and reinstalled when the layout is dismantled. It takes about 30 minutes to install the masts and hook up the catenary. Edited June 14, 2012 by Crewlisle Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike at C&M Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 31-677 (E3056 with a single pantograph) arrived at C&M in Carlisle this afternoon. 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jim s-w Posted June 14, 2012 Share Posted June 14, 2012 (edited) For those interested to go from max height to min height in 4mm scale on a 100mph piece of track you would need nearly 30 feet of track to drop 18mm if you are doing things to scale. Quite sobering isn't it? Cheers Jim Edited June 14, 2012 by jim s-w 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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