Class 85

[ThaneofFife]

Mark,

 

My article on producing simple catenary that looks OK from normal 1M viewing distances at exhibitions is currently featured in Model Rail 192, February 2014.

 

To anyone else who wants simple AC OLE that:

1. All masts and wires are portable.  Remember, any masts can be used but the catenary wire itself is unique to each layout.      
2. Uses proprietary masts and modified continental style multi track portal frames to look like masts seen around Birmingham and Crewe.
3. I used JV masts but I am sure Sommerfeldt or Viessmann masts could be used.
4. Pantograph is in contact with the contact wire.
5. The article shows you what to do in tunnels and across baseboard joints that are in tunnels.
6. Tested to 100mph scale running.  Why have an APT and not run it at scale speeds if required?

 

I have started a thread in the Model Rail section on this website if after reading the article anyone has any further questions.

 

Peter

I dont follow bullet point 4.   Whats the context of this statement?

[Crewlisle]

I dont follow bullet point 4.   Whats the context of this statement?

 

Some OLE restricts the height of the pantograph to within 2 or 3mm of the contact wire to avoid over loading delicate scale OLE.  I think the Dapol pantographs do this.  Also, by not having contact with the contact wire of super detailed OLE you can run at scale speeds without damaging the OLE.  By being in contact with the contact wire you can see the pantograph moving when passing under bridges or entering tunnels.

 

The OLE on Crewlisle is a simple representation of OLE to allow scale speeeds to be run as necessary (see photos in MR 192),  With scratchbuilt catenary wire I have been able to have each section of wire about 900mm long to cover 3 or 4 masts depending on the radius of the curves or pointwork and not restricted by manufacturers fixed lengths.

[Crewlisle]

I have just noticed that there are no references in the text to the diagrams in the middle of the right hand diagram page at the bottom of page 86.  These show how the catenary is fitted in tunnels and how it is fitted inside tunnel mouths.  The missing text is in the attachment below.

 

 

CATENARY INSIDE TUNNELS.docx

[ThaneofFife]

Is there a market do we think for Bachmann to produce the Class 85 in BR Blue with roof mounted air tanks, TOPS numbers, double BR cast arrows and illuminated 4 digit train reporting headcode panel?............I think most of them went straight to full TOPS with sealed beam marker panel but some I have seen photographed with the 4 digit panel.  I think it could be a very attractive model.

 

I would consider buying the model only I dont know what the latest year is I could represent ?  Was it '82?

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/10029001915_ed8585c600.jpg

[brushman47544]

Is there a market do we think for Bachmann to produce the Class 85 in BR Blue with roof mounted air tanks, TOPS numbers, double BR cast arrows and illuminated 4 digit train reporting headcode panel?............I think most of them went straight to full TOPS with sealed beam marker panel but some I have seen photographed with the 4 digit panel.  I think it could be a very attractive model.

 

I would consider buying the model only I dont know what the latest year is I could represent ?  Was it '82?

 

http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2836/10029001915_ed8585c600.jpg

 

Personally, I'd prefer the same but with marker lights on a black panel, as in this photo http://www.flickr.com/photos/48601959@N03/10233534983 dated 1980.

[ThaneofFife]

true that looks good too but i always associated the Class 81s with that particular look. 

 

i wonder how long the 85s had this look and if they all went through it or jumped straight to sealed beam?

[jsp3970]

It was suggested in another thread that I post this here.

 

Late last year I picked up a UK rail modelling magazine and when I saw the class 85 for sale just had to have one. This has rekindled my interest in modelling 'OO' and I am no w hoping to get a second 85, however since I have never tried to renumber one I don't know whether to try on one or wait and hope that a different TOPS numbered version comes out.

[ThaneofFife]

Photo of 85029 doing a rarely seen bit of AC movement near the limit of the OHLE on the Furness branch at Carnforth.

Always had a soft spot for 25kV AC outposts where the electrics must stop and diesel traction has to take over.

This location would probably would make for an interesting layout actually.....

 

the driver of this train has cleared the signal at the end of the platform so I assume he is drawing the train out but how far did the wires allow him to go with a full length train in tow for the presumed run round???  Not sure where this excursion was heading - the loco has not uncoupled and taken the facing crossover.  Was it due to terminate at Carnforth maybe to facilitate Steamtown visitors?  

 

https://www.flickr.com/photos/loose_grip_99/7028789273/

[kevpeo]

The wires continue on the from the down line and goods road into the two sidings past 'Steamtown' alongside the Furness line. These are also used to access the Steamtown site, but I'm not sure how many coaches fit. Kev.

[HornbyA3Fan]

Something has occurred to me about the 85's and for some time actually. But did any of the 85's or the other early AC electrics (81's to 85's) ever receive black window surrounds or black head code panels during their work life on the WCML in the later BR era between '84 to '91 (or later) at all. Just something to maybe model about if they did or not. 

Edited April 17, 2014 by HornbyA3Fan

[ThaneofFife]

im only aware of 85102 having black window surrounds but this was in the fictitious railfreight livery applied after preservation.

[HornbyA3Fan]

im only aware of 85102 having black window surrounds but this was in the fictitious railfreight livery applied after preservation.

Just found it interesting to see if any of them before withdrawal in the late 80's/early 90's ever received an up to date BR blue livery with the black window surrounds. I know the DMU's have just by looking at pics in model form or the real versions. Might do to a 85 some time just of something unique for a possible era idea of a 'what if'.

[RBE]

Mark,

 

My article on producing simple catenary that looks OK from normal 1M viewing distances at exhibitions is currently featured in Model Rail 192, February 2014.

 

To anyone else who wants simple AC OLE that:

1. All masts and wires are portable.  Remember, any masts can be used but the catenary wire itself is unique to each layout.      
2. Uses proprietary masts and modified continental style multi track portal frames to look like masts seen around Birmingham and Crewe.
3. I used JV masts but I am sure Sommerfeldt or Viessmann masts could be used.
4. Pantograph is in contact with the contact wire.
5. The article shows you what to do in tunnels and across baseboard joints that are in tunnels.
6. Tested to 100mph scale running.  Why have an APT and not run it at scale speeds if required?

 

I have started a thread in the Model Rail section on this website if after reading the article anyone has any further questions.

 

Peter

 

Hi Peter, Thanks for the shout in your Model Rail article, albeit a bit of a back hander   . It was a good article for those who want to get into OHLE and reduce the scary factor. I naturally still maintain that building very scale OHLE as I wrote about previously in MR is well within the reach of an average modeller. Working out run ons, run offs, wire routing over crossovers and positioning balance weights and actually wire tensioning etc is granted a lot more involved and would maybe put people off. I personally think the effort is worth it and my catenery would have the pan in contact with the wire and run well over 100mph scale speeds also. I have always thought your OHLE on crewelisle was a good compromise though and looks good, certainly there was no provision for it being removable on Outon Road once it was on there!!

[ThaneofFife]

running trains at a scale 100mph under catenary is fine provided the track layout is also offering scale 100mph running too not 3rd radius curves etc

[298]

running trains at a scale 100mph under catenary is fine provided the track layout is also offering scale 100mph running too not 3rd radius curves etc

Something that is eventually realised by a modeller but not considered by someone expecting to shake a box onto their layout and for catenary to appear is the wire path has to follow a series of tangents around a curve, so the tighter the radius, the closer the mast spacing. These may end up unrealistically close on the average trainset layout, and some seemed to think a cure is to bend a curve into their rigid overhead.

 

I know what you mean by scale curves, but the minimum radius for 100mph running is about a scale mile, so there obviously has to be a compromise somewhere. Rumours that Dapol were working on special glasses to give the optical illusion of straightening tight curves that the builder had erected magic curved wires above were unfounded at the recent product announcement at the start of this month...

[ThaneofFife]

never get your hopes up based on rumours

[RBE]

running trains at a scale 100mph under catenary is fine provided the track layout is also offering scale 100mph running too not 3rd radius curves etc

Absolutely and Outon Roads generous curve was still limited to 50mph. The 100mph comment was aimed at Peters specification of 100mph which I assumed he was quoting as a measure of robustness rather than whether youd want to run trains that fast. As for the wires faceting around a curve, again I totally agree and the method of construction that I used to make my catenary made it impossible to do it any other way as the wires were too thin to not be tensioned as per the real thing. To me nothing looks worse than curved wires. I try to avoid visible tight curves at all costs as even with Outon Roads scenic 10ft radius curve the masts had to be placed just over a foot apart to stop the pan coming off the wire.

[Crewlisle]

Crewlisle’ was built to represent all the things I wanted from my own train spotting days on the Midland & WCML in the 1950s & early 60s & my son’s railway interests upto 1985, so I have had to squeeze a quart into a pint pot!  This included locos, stock, 6 coach expresses, 4 platform main line terminus, steam engine shed, diesel shed, double track continuous WCML with OLE & a reversing loop.  This is all squeezed into 3 inter connected levels in a space of 2.6M x 2.3M.  On the mid level continuous run WCML with OLE, the front section is on a 2.1M radius curve.  This is the section that I can run at a scale 100mph to demonstrate the robustness of the OLE; the rest at about 70 mph on short sections of second radius curves inside the tunnels at each end of the layout & a straight section.  Normally at exhibitions I can leave the APT or HST running at about 70 mph whilst operating upto three other locos simultaneously.  There is no fiddle yard but a cartridge exchange system on the reversing loop on the inside of the operating well.

 

‘Crewlisle’ is not for the purists because of its non prototypical operation, close positioning of the OLE masts on the end curves & long timescale.  But it is built for entertainment both at home & exhibitions.  As I have said before, my layout was built from happy memories & with the OLE designed & built between the basic Hornby/Lima OLE of the early 80s & the super detailed OLE built by RBE on Outon Road. 

[ThaneofFife]

going to trawl some more class 85 images today to see if i can find some lesser seen locations.......

[Crewlisle]

Cheers Phil, Im liking the roof weathering in particular.

 

The pan is simple to do. I took mine off of the model to do it though as it makes life easier. Just crack the glue with a twist of the screwdriver to pop it free. The mounts with the insulators on are seperate units and will remain on the model. The issue with how it rides is that Bachmann have designed the pan wrong at the head. The little eye for the wire to fit into is above the head pivots which means as the pan goes down it pushes the head away when it should pull it to keep it level. All I did was move the wire to the longer eye to the side which is used as Jim mentioned to hold the pan down. The wire will need to have its length tweaked a little to get tge pivot right but its easy enough once the pan is off. This then shifts the wire to the opposite side of the pivot and reverses the motion. Of course the pan will no longer lock down but I wont ever need it to so its fine by me.

 

Cav

 

I have just got round to making my Class 85 pantograph  work & look as it should do.  I did as Cav suggested to disconnect the wire from the pan, but instead of moving it to the longer eye on the side I carefully re-bent the wire at the top to make it about 1 to 1.5mm longer & reattached it to the centre eye so that the pan stays level from the stowed position to about 45 degrees.  This will then be level at my catenary wire height & I can still clip it down for ‘dragging’.  I am not bothered about it staying level at angles of more than 45 degrees.

 

It is fiddly but worth the effort.  Before bending the wire carefully check where to put the bend as once bent it is fiddly to adjust.  When I had the right length, I tried bending the free end (as per the original) to stop the free end ‘pulling’ through the eye, but this just adjusted the actual pivot point.  I finished up fitting a small sleeve of wire insulation over the free end, held in place with a minute drop of super glue on the end.

[45059]

Forgive me if this has already been mentioned, but I could have sworn that when I bought mine the panto was 'locked' down in the stowed position and stayed there.

 

However, much as I try to replicate this (for a drag, or sat in sidings) I can't persuade the panto to stay sat in the lowered position.

 

Am I missing something, being thick, or is this also a problem for others?

[tetsudofan]

Keeping the pantograph stored in the down position is a problem and has been mentioned before - if I remember correctly someone has explained a fix that can be done to easily retain the pantograph in the down position. 

 

I've got three 85s currently sitting on my layout and, a last, I've managed to get all pantographs stored in the down position. It took a lot of fiddling but somehow I managed it. Don't ask me how I did it but it is possible!!

 

Keith

[Crewlisle]

Keeping the pantograph stored in the down position is a problem and has been mentioned before - if I remember correctly someone has explained a fix that can be done to easily retain the pantograph in the down position. 

 

I've got three 85s currently sitting on my layout and, a last, I've managed to get all pantographs stored in the down position. It took a lot of fiddling but somehow I managed it. Don't ask me how I did it but it is possible!!

 

Keith

 

Keith,

 

At the risk of 'teaching granny to suck eggs', remove the pantograph centre base by inserting a screwdriver & twist to 'break' the glue so you can have a close look at the lock-down mechanism.  If you look at the front of the base, there is a small 'pip' on the right hand side (when viewed from above).  If you push the pantogaph down & slightly to the right, when it rides over the 'pip' move it to the left so the hole in the small bracket on the underside of the pan goes over the 'pip'.  The pan is now locked down.  Reverse the procedure to unlock it.  You could try it first without removing the pantograph now you know how it works.

 

Peter

Edited July 15, 2014 by Crewlisle

[45059]

Without 'breaking' anything I followed you instructions Crewlisle with my locos and managed to get both with their pantos in a 'half' stowed position.

 

I then tried to replicate the procedure, resulting in one now being fully locked down (thank you) and the other loco's panto not playing at all (sod it!)

 

'Crewlisle man speak with forked tongue- there be witchcraft round 'ere!!' (I'm now off outside to point at the moon )

 

More observation and practice required by me I think on this one I think.

 

Edit- because computer didn't like the word bugg3r.

Edited July 16, 2014 by 45059

[rodent279]

With regard to post #568-I'm pretty sure that's an 81 not an 86. Look at the shape of the bodyside-it's smooth. Class 85 bodyside were a strong steel trough with a lightweight superstructure carrying the grilles & roof. 

 

With regard to post #578-orange cantrail stripes came in around 1978, as an additional safety measure-below this line there should be no danger of shock from the OHL or roof mounted equipment.