New 20T Brake Van

[hmrspaul]

I understand the first of these vans to have Hydraulic buffers have the early 'square' Dowty's (like the BR single bolster wagons) I've been shown three different photos of the same batch of vans with these buffers on but I can't remember if they had roller bearings or not.

 

Regards,

Dave Franks

 

 

Frank

 

It would be interesting to know more about this, At least one of lot 3012 had an early round based Dowty buffer http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brbrakevan506/e27c43b6c

 

Is there mention of these in Gent E (1999) British Railways Brake vans and ballast ploughs. Pub. By HMRS 92pp. ISBN 0 – 902835 – 16 –5. ?

 

Paul Bartlett

[rsv1000r]

 

 

Frank

 

It would be interesting to know more about this, At least one of lot 3012 had an early round based Dowty buffer http://PaulBartlett....an506/e27c43b6c

 

Is there mention of these in Gent E (1999) British Railways Brake vans and ballast ploughs. Pub. By HMRS 92pp. ISBN 0 – 902835 – 16 –5. ?

 

Paul Bartlett

according to Gent Paul quote: with lot 3012 came two further mods. all subsequent were fitted with Oleo self-contained 330mm dia. head pneumatic buffers & screw link couplings as standard

 

Nigel

[31A]

A BR official photo of a van bearing the same insignia as the Hornby BR Bauxite liveried van (B951410, branded 'Western') appears on page 18 of Eric Gent's book.

 

According to the text this was from Lot 2207, built as 'unfitted' (in this context, no through vacuum pipe or brake valve); however despite this, as far as one can tell from a black and white photo it appears to be painted bauxite. It has screw couplings, and no vacuum pipe is visible. It has plain axleboxes. The other obvious difference to the Hornby model is that it has an additional small handrail high on the side, beneath the chimney.

 

However Eric says that vans built from 1956 onwards were built with roller bearings, so it seems the livery portrayed by the Hornby model ought to be appropriate for one of those, even if the running number isn't.

 

The above observations are based on Hatton's photos of the Hornby model; I haven't seen an actual model yet, but apart from the above, it looks fine in the photos - as someone has already said, the planking detail seems more subtle than on the Bachmann one, the coarseness of which has always put me off buying one.

[davefrk]

Hi Paul and Nigel, the link Paul gives has five vans with round Dowty's on, both lengths and the quote from Gent's book is IMHO incorrect as Dowty buffers were used first before Oleo's come out around 58/59. In my research for these buffers I found many wagons built around 1957/58 fitted with the round Dowty's. The most well known 'square Dowty' fitment was the single bolster wagons, others were match wagons and a batch of BR guards vans all around 1957. I will try to get copies of the photos for you Paul, IIRC at least one of which was new ex works.

I'll also look out some further photo references of Dowty's.

My interest in these Dowty buffers? My father was assistant works manager at Dowty's early 50s to 1962 and he talked about the ramp they built outside his office window where these buffers were tested when under development. They always seemed to let a wagon go down the ramp and into another just when he was on the phone!!!!!

 

Regards,

Dave Franks

Edit, now found even more looking through the other lists of BR vans Paul.

Edited August 19, 2011 by davefrk

[rsv1000r]

I think Gents quote may be assuming they're Oleo, as I believe the dowty head was 330mm as the spindle type, where as the oleos head is larger I believe? or am I just terribly confused Dave?

[davefrk]

I think Gents quote may be assuming they're Oleo, as I believe the dowty head was 330mm as the spindle type, where as the oleos head is larger I believe? or am I just terribly confused Dave?

Hi, no, the Dowty's and Oleo's all come with 330mm heads as well as the next size up, the Oleo's went even bigger later.

 

Regards,

Dave Franks

[Porcy Mane]

"quote Mr Franks"

"I understand the first of these vans to have Hydraulic buffers have the early 'square' Dowty's (like the BR single bolster wagons) I've been shown three different photos of the same batch of vans with these buffers on but I can't remember if they had roller bearings or not."

 

I suppose I better put my hand up and take the blame for this. It was two photos actually Dave. The third was from the same lot but was an ex works photo (following overhaul I presume) dated 1960 I think. It shows a freshly painted van with round bauxite painted Dowty buffers so they may have been swopped out. I say, "I think", as I cannot now find the prints. I think it was one of Don Rowlands photgraphs but will confirm the van number and date once I find the print.

 

[Edit] Found the print of the Ex. works van. B953646: Photo undated but the paint and lift date is clearly readable on solebar and body as 25 April 1961. Round Dowty's with small diameter chrome piston shanks. Painted black, not body colour as stated earlier. Vac fitted with release star and pull cord clearly visible. Timken bearings with caps painted yellow with red stripe(I assume as it's a B&W print.) and "horseshoe" protective covers fitted. Photographer is/was "HKB".

[further edit]

Then there are the Hydraulic buffers fitted to this lot 3012 BV.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/rpmarks/4105210066/sizes/o/in/photostream/

 

"quote Mr Franks"

"I'd planned on doing one of my vans with the square Dowty's but the axlebox question is bugging me."

 

All roller bearing but you can't model B953498 or B953553. They are claimed by me. (and Duncan)

Dave, Will you be gracing us with your presence at North Shields next weekend?

 

"Quote Mr Barltett"

"Frank

It would be interesting to know more about this, At least one of lot 3012 had an early round based Dowty buffer.

<Missing Link>

Is there mention of these in Gent E (1999) British Railways Brake vans and ballast ploughs. Pub. By HMRS 92pp. ISBN 0 – 902835 – 16 –5. ?

Paul Bartlett"

 

Paul,

One photograph showing Square Dowty's is by the late Patrick Howat and was published in his book, "THE RAILWAYS OF RYEDALE ". A better print appeared in Micheal Blakemores book, "Railways of the North Yorkshire Moors". It shows B Van 553 and was taken at Gilling Station in Aug 1964. I think I got the print of Patricks brother. He lives in York.

This van also has two lamp irons on the visible verandah.

The other undated print I have is of Van 498 at North Blyth. I suspect this print may have been scanned from a mag as it shows some moiré.

The weathering on both vans give the impression that the buffers were fitted from new.

All 3 vans fron lot 3012 of course. Once I've found the prints I'll post further Info.

I know Don Rowlands(BritishRailways) details regarding brake vans in his appendix In British Railways Wagons has had it's accuracy questioned but as I uncover more brake van pics it seems like the info is spot on. Especially the vacuum fitted info.

As a bit of further information, I was talking to a chap that used to build brake vans at Faverdale a few months ago. I “boned” him about buffers. His recollection were, “They bolted on whatever tuned up on the pallet”.

 

HtH

Porcy (With further apologies as to what this post will end up looking like. I’m still having major problems with the editor following the upgrade! anad I've just relised it might be regarded as a bit of a Hijack).

Edited August 20, 2011 by Porcy Mane

[AberdeenBill]

Thanks Porcy, excellent information. Would anybody care to speculate on when the last regional allocation (in particular Southern) carried by the earlier batches was painted out (see Gent, p. 24)?

[Godfrey Glyn]

Picked up the new brake from Alton on Thursday. Have been trying out the macro lens and so some pictures as requested.

Godfrey

[craigwelsh]

Separate buffers are an interesting one but are they sprung?

 

It does have a refinement in the upper handrails compared to the Bachmann one and the planking is indeed an improvement. The plastic Hornby use however makes the underframe a bit chunkier than the Bachmann I think.

 

£7/8 vs £13 ish hmm, possibly if you want the minor variation but as I throw the chassis away anyway i'll stick with the Bachmann bodies for now I think unless these come down a bit in future.

 

The T in ton and the way the numbers are spaced one per plank seems an oddity compared to the majority of shots I have on this particular one. Like the Iron Ore hopper Hornby seem to have had a knack of finding odd looking painting!

[Pennine MC]

As a bit of further information, I was talking to a chap that used to build brake vans at Faverdale a few months ago. I “boned” him about buffers. His recollection were, “They bolted on whatever tuned up on the pallet”.

 

 

Thanks Porcy, I pretty much thought that would be how things happened

 

 

...However Eric says that vans built from 1956 onwards were built with roller bearings, so it seems the livery portrayed by the Hornby model ought to be appropriate for one of those, even if the running number isn't.

 

 

 

I think this is the important point, from a modeller's POV. Admittedly it's unfortunate that Hornby seem to have developed a habit of numbering things wrongly, but neither of the chassis combos is incorrect as such - both variations existed, you just need to renumber it accordingly.

[Guest Max Stafford]

I like the fact they've done the roller bearing variant. Adds another dimension to my fleet on a route that always seemed swamped with brake vans!

 

Dave.

[davefrk]

Hi all, just found this thread again, I couldn't seem to find it in the search - I was looking for 'guards vans'.....

Okay then.

Hi Porcy Mane, I was hoping you would pop up, thanks for all the info, I hope it gives something for Paul (hmrs) to work on. I will be at Blyth on Saturday hope to see you and Duncan there.

The Hornby van looks better than the Bachmann one. I'll be having one of those and replacing the buffers for 'square' Dowty's. Incidently the buffers on the van in the picture aren't quite right as they've made the top and bottom ribs the same where-as there should be three full length ribs with only the top one ending short, (I can supply all the correct buffers for the van now as I've just released Dowty's and Oleos today)

All the best,

Dave Franks

www.lanarkshiremodels.com

[iak]

A visit to a well known emporium beckons tomorrow...

Let the butchery commence

['CHARD]

I like the fact they've done the roller bearing variant. Adds another dimension to my fleet on a route that always seemed swamped with brake vans!

 

Dave.

Order placed for a pair for evaluation purposes, from a well known brown-paper and string purveyor. Top'n'tailing 28 SLU on a roundy is well within the capabilities of the Barwell caboose, let's hope these will perform straight from the traps too....

[Pennine MC]

I picked one up at lunchtime, not had chance to look at it properly yet but my main comment is that the handrails are a bit of a disappointment. I would probably have had two, if I'd been able to find another one that had them sufficiently straight and tidy.

 

Can anyone confirm if it was ever said that they'd be metal, or have we all just assumed they would be, because of the Shark? - 'cos they're plastic, and the horizontal rail on the first one I picked up ran at three different angles. They're admittedly a bit finer than the Bachy, especially now the mouldings of the latter are starting to show their age, but I really wouldnt say they justify another fiver.

[31A]

Came away from Monk Bar Models with a brown one this morning.

 

Have to say, the handrails are nice and straight on mine, and were on the two in their display cabinet - perhaps Pennine's supplier got a duff batch?

 

Must say I'm quite impressed with the whole thing, detailing nicely rendered and subtle where necessary. The lamp irons on the corner uprights are nicely done (they appear to be separate parts), and I particularly like the end glazing. Not noted previously (I think) is the presence of an internal hand brake wheel! A bit surprising (after the horsebox) there's no representation of brake rodding etc., but I don't tend to look underneath my models when they're running! Not sure whether the buffers are searate items or not (no holes visible on the insides of the headstocks), but may investigate replacement with Oleos which I think would be more suitable for a roller bearing fitted van, following which re-numbering would be appropriate.

 

On the subject of numbers, whilst clearly inspired by the picture of B951410 on page 18 of Gent, the disposition of the characters is somewhat different.

['CHARD]

A pair arrived yesterday less than 24 hours after I placed my eHattons order (no connection...). I would describe the Margate 20T as subtle and effective - from normal viewing distances it's scarily like its Tri-ang forebear - which possibly speaks volumes about that '60s effort. The Barwelll caboose looks like a caricature beside it, and the newcomer's handrails do score - plastic or not those on mine are straight and true. However, at either end of a typical Waverley freight, it's only the Bachmann with adequate heft to top'n'tail 28 of its fellow four-wheelers (I stress that I've not weighed the two). So a curate's egg is the verdict of the Teviotbank jury. Very pretty and understated, but more decorative than functional - and that's not the first time I've been acquainted with that type .

[Pennine MC]

Have to say, the handrails are nice and straight on mine, and were on the two in their display cabinet - perhaps Pennine's supplier got a duff batch?

 

Maybe so Steve, I'll keep looking for a second one.

 

but may investigate replacement with Oleos which I think would be more suitable for a roller bearing fitted van,

 

Not automatically so though, as the change to roller boxes came in some time before the 'big buffer' phase, and one of mine will represent this halfway house stage. It's not something I'd have gone out of my way to do (the buffers are of course more noticeable, so it's more worthwhile doing both changes if you're going to bother at all), but as it's come like that, I see no problem in taking advantage of Hornby's error

 

It's a theory as yet unproven by thorough study of pics, but I also suspect that the later build vans had the sheeting over the ducket from new, rather than as a repair.

 

So a curate's egg is the verdict of the Teviotbank jury. Very pretty and understated, but more decorative than functional -

 

I'd agree with that summation, most Hornby/Bachmann comparisons tend towards the Margate models being a tad on the 'pretty' side. I'll probably make a better comparison tomorrow (brakevans being something I kinda need to do a wee stocktake of), but I have just noticed that it has the cutouts in the back of the stepboards level with the axleboxes, which is nice

 

The question (and I'd like more opinion on this, if anyone wants to venture one), is whether the various advantages of this new van make it worth the not inconsiderable extra wonga

 

However, at either end of a typical Waverley freight, it's only the Bachmann with adequate heft to top'n'tail 28 of its fellow four-wheelers (I stress that I've not weighed the two).

 

I continue to be puzzled by this, young Chardie; are we talking about rolling resistance and keeping couplings taut perchance?

[Downer]

Is it worth the extra wonga? I'd say yes, if it weren't for the ludicrously extended couplings. When I work out how to shorten those I'll probably buy one.

['CHARD]

I continue to be puzzled by this, young Chardie; are we talking about rolling resistance and keeping couplings taut perchance?

 

The cut-outs are neat, and the duckets have a certain finesse to them, likewise the small handles either side make Bachy's seem positively clumsy.

 

On the top'n'tail question, I have yet to do this in anger (a proper WR Class 4 is set up for some action, running to 60 SLU, that will sort the men from the boys!), but I would describe my specimens as twitchy/ nervous when they're inside the loco at the head of load 30 SLU, unlike the Barwells which sit confidently on my less than award-winning trackwork.

[31A]

Thanks Ian, interesting to know about the roller bearing / buffer juxtapositions. I've been trying to piece together the story from Gent's book, also Don Rowlands 'The first half million' and May 1983 'Constructor' - it appears Lot 2868 (Faverdale 1956) could have had the combination modelled, although there is a contradiction between the sources as to whether 'fitted' or 'un'.

 

Re. the long couplings, most Hornby vehicles seem to suffer from this affliction, and this one seems more afflicted than some. I've cured it on some other vehicles by cutting about 3mm from the outer end of the pocket, a similar amount from the coupling tails, and drilling a hole through pocket and coupling to insert a wire peg through both, to retain the coupling in place. Also, use a Bachmann coupling in place of the Hornby one, as they seem to be a bit shorter. Bachmann pockets don't always seem to fit properly into the Hornby chassis mouldings, though!

 

It certainly seems a lot lighter than the 'Shark' - presumably why 'Chard finds it unstable at the head of a train?

 

Like a lot of Hornby tooling these days, the more you look the more you see, and I like the way the concrete ballast weights have a subtle texture to the surface.

 

Sorry this is a bit 'wordy' - the 'quote' function doesn't seem to work on my computer now, either!

[Downer]

Re. the long couplings, most Hornby vehicles seem to suffer from this affliction, and this one seems more afflicted than some. I've cured it on some other vehicles by cutting about 3mm from the outer end of the pocket, a similar amount from the coupling tails, and drilling a hole through pocket and coupling to insert a wire peg through both, to retain the coupling in place.

 

Great idea. I'm going to try it on my BY van.

[31A]

You're welcome, Downer - it worked very well on the BY, and also the Horsebox. I can't claim any originality as I read it on here (although I may have invented the wire peg - I think glue was suggested) - in fact I think it may have had something to do with Ian (Pennine). I aim to get the corners of the 'loop' part of the coupling level with the buffers, but you may need to experiment a bit depending on how sharp your curves are. I'm not sure it'll be possible to get the couplings that short on this brake van, though!

[Pennine MC]

Thanks Ian, interesting to know about the roller bearing / buffer juxtapositions. I've been trying to piece together the story from Gent's book, also Don Rowlands 'The first half million' and May 1983 'Constructor' - it appears Lot 2868 (Faverdale 1956) could have had the combination modelled, although there is a contradiction between the sources as to whether 'fitted' or 'un'.

 

It is difficult to be definitive - as you say, you have to piece it together. In the early days of RMweb I did a summary of the various build changes collated from the base references and cross checked with Mr Bartlett's pics - I think it must be on my hard drive. But having checked there again, you may well be right that it's just the one Lot that had rollers with spindles.