RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2011 As a companion to my blog (which will detail the construction of the layout and its stock) I have decided to run a parallel thread covering the research. I have now gone through my first two books, collating a list of all useful photos. This is starting to raise further questions for which I would appreciate a bit of help. First up a livery question, 45xx 4573. I am assuming that this loco would be in G W R branded livery in '47/8, however the photo is not very clear and the letters cannot be made out. (the photo was dated 1949 looks like it has no logos. (p50 in Steaming Through the Cheddar Valley On page 136 of the same book is a photo of G W R 5512 with the end of an LMS coach, having even less knowledge of LMS coaching stock than of GW can anyone identify it? So far I have seen lots of photos of B sets, going to need to do further reading on GW coaching stock types in the future to start identifying others..... Regarding locos, I seem to be getting my fleet together 4500 class 4573 (not identified livery) 4575 class 5512 G W R 2251 class 3215 (not identified livery, other than GW style numbers on bufferbeam, p120) I am still looking to add a couple more to that should I be able to find suitable photos, there are masses of photos of 57xx pannier tanks running on the line in the 50s but I have not found a single photo showing them in the 40s. Could one be justified? I was also expecting to see something like a 4300 class 2-6-0 and a 14xx.... Photos: I am on the hunt for the following photos: back and Axbridge side of the signal box more detailed photos showing the buildings in the water works the back wall of the station roof (the signal box side) and the bridge at the south end. I would be very interested to hear any memories anyone has of travelling on the line Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted July 27, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2011 Can't help with your stock Rich but are you aware of the very nice print 'Strawberries from Somerset'by B.J. Freeman.It has a very nice Bulldog and a B set on the other platform.Very modellable. http://www.barry-freeman.co.uk/productoptions.cfm?cid=12&pid=270 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Very pre-war, too! Wonder why it appears to be working wrong line? A very quick shufti at the carriage workings suggests you need six B sets, a loose toplight corridor third, a corridor set comprising brake third and composite, twin railcar set with BCK between the railcars and a single railcar which tows the toplight. Oh, I forgot the regular parcels van. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
buffalo Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 I assume you don't have the Harman book yet? It does reinforce your observations. One of 4573 in 1949 shows it quite grubby with no sign of anything on the tank sides. Several of 5512 in 1948 all with GWR. There is one of 1430 in 1949 and 5813 in the same year. Neither livery is clear, but one may be a shirtbutton. Dean Goods 2340 appears in 1948 with shirtbutton on tender. Collett 2220 and 3215 in 1948 again unclear. Ex MSWJR 1008 in 1936 is one oddity and the only pre-nationalisation pannier is 1076 class no1626 with a crane at Dulcote quarry, possibly in 1923. All other panniers (57XX) are late 1950s. No sign of pre-nationalisation 43XXs. The Axbridge side of the box appears in several photos, but the other views you are looking for are more elusive. Nick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 27, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2011 Thanks again for the information Chris So b set wise detailing the Hornby/airfix model with suitable detailing Toplight - slatters kit Which diagram for the corridor set? Would the Bachmann model do for the bck? I seem to recall mention of using it between a twin railcar on the forum Will get looking for suitable parcels van Thanks nick Will add a Dean goods to my list, and stretch the 14xx Looks like panniers are off the cards though Will get on and buy the harmen book ASAP Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 9732 on a Cranmore - Yatton goods 17/03/36 5535 on a Witham - Yatton B set (E140) 07/05/36 Undated picture of 1008 (Beyer Peacock) on goods at Cheddar Diesel railcars were used as well, a picture of No 23 at Wells in 1947 exists Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 27, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 27, 2011 Railcar wise I am planning no 24 for the single car, Not found a twin photo yet Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted July 27, 2011 Share Posted July 27, 2011 Rich: the BCK that ran with railcars 35+36 was 6582 which has doors to each compartment (E148) and therefore not like the Bachmann one at all! The other twin railcar, 33+38, ran with an SK, 1096, which was a C77 as made by Bachmann. One nice little pitfall by the way - as I'm sure the late great Monty Wells made clear in his MRJ article "Banana Split", there were differences between 33, which he modelled, and 35, which you need to model. This is because 38's original partner was 37 which cremated itself - as did 35 and 36! 33 was rebuilt post-war from a single car. The toplight was 2422 which was not quite the same diagram (C28) as the Slater's kit, most of which served as ambulance coaches, but is probably near enough with any dimensional differences being fractions of a millimetre. The two-coach corridor set could have been anything. If you come across a photo of the 7.5 am Wells - Yatton, 1.11 pm Sats only Yatton - Wells, 2.45 Sats only Wells - Yatton and 8.8 pm Yatton - Wells, which was its booked working, the massed brains of RMweb will no doubt jump to your aid! The cwp is rather coy about what type of van it would have been. If it were a Siphon G the document would normally say so, often specifying a particular vehicle. Whatever it was, it spent the day at Wells. As for B sets, there were several different types, most of which ran in the Bristol District at some time. You might want to ring the changes for visual interest and to counter boredom! Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 28, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2011 again, that background on the railcar is very interesting Having looked at the comet website I can't see an E148 diagram. Is there a kit or sides available for it? Will keep an eye out for photos of the wells yatton working, to start with I think a pair of Bachmann colletts will do the job while I get through building the rest of the coaching stock I've now identified the comet b sets along with a Hornby pair to start off my b set fleet Will keep an eye out in the Photos and try and id a parcels van I will be modelling the summer so I can have the strawberry traffic, so from photos it looks like there were often a couple of bogie siphons (just been reading the detailing thread) and fruit d (parkside) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
cary hill Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Look at the Comet site again - their kit ref no.W12 is a Corridor Brake Composite to Diagram E148 David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 28, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2011 Thanks for that, not sure how I managed to miss it. Is it best to build these as a full kit, or to use sides in an rtr coach? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest jonte Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 Can't help with your stock Rich but are you aware of the very nice print 'Strawberries from Somerset'by B.J. Freeman.It has a very nice Bulldog and a B set on the other platform.Very modellable. http://www.barry-freeman.co.uk/productoptions.cfm?cid=12&pid=270 Sorry to hijack your thread, Fatadder, but must take opportunity to congratulate Rob on the standard of his layout (only just noticed it). Fabulous! Jonte Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
David C Posted July 28, 2011 Share Posted July 28, 2011 For info on B sets, the GWRJ Cornish special dealt with all the various diagrams and the differences between them. For modelling, Tim Venton (of Clutton fame and who I believe is also a member of RMweb) has some details on www.tventon.freeserve.co.uk. Be warned that the Airfix/Dapol/Hornby B sets are pretty inaccurate and need a lot of work to convert to scale - I've flunked attacking mine so far! I'll be interested to watch progress on Cheddar. Best wishes David C Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted July 28, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2011 Thanks for the warning David I will consider getting a pair as a place holder for testing etc while the stock is built up If they can be made accurate I will give it a go... At the moment it is looking like Airbus are sending me to Toulouse for 6 months from feb next year, in which case I will have lots of free time to get building a bunch of comet coaches Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted July 28, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted July 28, 2011 Thanks for that, not sure how I managed to miss it. Is it best to build these as a full kit, or to use sides in an rtr coach? Rich I would say the full kit because there isn't an easy 57' donor vehicle to stick the sides too as far as I know.Its a flat end coach too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 1, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 1, 2011 A little more planning progress today, A visit to the South Devon railway has resulted in the purchase of the Harman 'East Somerset and Cheddar Valley' book, along with the first two purchases for the layout (a Parkside Fruit D and a Hornby GW horsebox. Unfortunately the purchase of the Harman book (with its extracts of maps) has highlighted a significant problem. Having now got an accurate idea as to the length and width of the station I have realised that its massively bigger in both dimensions than I had expected. A quick look through the other stations on the line and I just cant find a prototype that has enough interest both from a modelling and operating points of view that I don't really want to change from Cheddar. So my attention has now turned onto trying to work out if it is possible to either a) model an extract of Cheddar (that could should extra space be expanded), B) produce an interpretation of cheddar that fits within the space available, but compresses the width (which according to the plan would be about 5 chains wide, ie a metre or so in 4mm scale) or the final option c) build a fictional station on the cheddar branch taking a lead from from Cheddar for the track plan and operation but designed from the outset to fit within a 10 to 12 foot by 2ft baseboard. I have been thinking about using a curved backscene with a hole for the track at the axbridge end and the backscene ending at the edge of the station on the Draycott end. Some sidings would have to be lost, with the track disappearing behind the backscene on the back of the layout. (I'm not sure if I would loose the sidings on the cheddar village side or the country side.) In the approach there may be some room for selective compression between the double slip and the goods shed, pulling out a few inches to further help. I think that the compression idea (B) probably wouldnt work too well, as it would mean reducing the gaps between sidings by too much potentially resulting in a layout dominated by track, and looking nothing like the prototype. Option c) is more of a last resort, although it does have a certain appeal. there is enough detail in the Harman book regarding the architectural style of the railway to take elements of Cheddar (including its roof), Axbridge etc and come up with something that looks as though it was by the same architects. Track wise it gets a bit more difficult, I've never been too happy coming up with track plans... My initial thought being a compression of Cheddar, with the goods yard on the village side increased by 1 road, In each plan, my thoughts for a future extension would be modelling the lime loading point and the five ways bridge. Along with the station approach. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 2, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 2, 2011 What about using the 1895 track plan? Possibly using the overall roof of the station as a scenic break, which may result in shortening the siding next to the approach road, depending on which side you make the viewing side other wise it could extend into the Draycott fiddle yard. Thre is also the opportunity to do similar at the Axbridge end with the siding, which goes under the New Road. It would also be possible to mirror the curve. HTH SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 2, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 2, 2011 An evening on templot has yielded good results I noW have a trackplan that gives the essence of the location without being a true scale replica Still need a lot of work to get an acceptable plan, the station sizes are based on what should look tight, but the compression is making the sidings harder to arrange Lots more templot time will fix this... I have also still got to add the single slip, although I need to read up on how to do this... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ullypug Posted August 7, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 7, 2011 I'm still struggling with importing the map onto templot. Joys of running templot through a mac via crossover, or just my incompetence! Not modelling all of the station building would certainly allow a smaller layout. If you do choose another location, a lot of stations had good operational potential which is surprising for a quiet backwater. Wookey is a bit smaller but has the paper mill. Congresbury with the Wrington Vale line Sandford with the quarry Cranmore with the Marcroft wagon works and the quarry loading bank plus bitumen tanks. Draycott with its strawberry traffic. The latter 3 stations' building are still in situ too, as is Wookey's good shed. I'll dig out a couple of GWR Journals and bring to Wells next week. There are a couple of interesting articles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 If you do think about Cranmore don't forget the narrow gauge (later converted to standard gauge) feeder line from the quarry which ran down to the loading bank, and also that Roads Reconstruction Ltd, who took over the Mendip Mountain Quarry Co, also imported narrow gauge contractors locos as part of their machinery dealers trade. These came in by rail before being transfered to the NG section for storage at the quarry, an unusual source of traffic there! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted August 8, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted August 8, 2011 Having spent the trip back to Chester yesterday having another trawl through my Cheddar books, I think I have finalised my initial loco fleet. A couple are only mentioned in the text rather than photos, so more research will be needed. 45xx: 5512 with angled tanks and 4573 (straight tanks) 14xx – 1430 2200 Class – 2220 Dean Goods 43xx – tbd The text appears to state that post war panniers were common on Freight, however I am yet to see a photo (though I guess given the shortage of photos showing freight trains that is to be expected.) GWR single railcar 28 + toplight GWR twin railcar, the East Somerset & Cheddar Valley book lists twin 37 / 38 on the line, but I still havent found a photo. it gets more interesting given the dates of 37 going up in smoke. the book states that 37 caught fire in Feb ’47, 38 then ran with single car 22 before 33 was rebuilt, 37 condemned in ’49. No date when 33 was rebuilt, but I am assuming that it would be the same time as 37 was condemmed. It would certainly make an interesting looking model to have 38 - C77 - 22. On the other hand modelling 35/36 as per ChrisF's post above does sound very interesting given the more complicated build for the centre coach. Will have to keep looking for more photos I think... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisf Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Thanks to Colin Judge's book "The History of the Great Western AEC Diesel Railcars" recently republished by Noodle, I can shed a bit more light on the twins. As at June 1947 35+36 were at Reading and 37+38 at St Philip's Marsh. 37 caught fire on 18th February 1949 and was condemned on 8th September. By June 1950 the twin sets, or what was left of them, had exchanged places. 22 was at Reading and as you say ran with 38 until 33 was converted. This was based at Stourbridge Jcn then but was photographed at Reading in 1952 after conversion. The allocations for both dates quoted in the book are taken from Railway Observer supplements which are as near to kosher as you will find. Another item of interest is that when 35+36 were at Reading a regular partner was a 70 ft 10 compartment corridor third. Unfortunately the photos in the book are not sufficiently clear to make out the number but I'm as sure as I can be that this was left behind when the swap was made in 1949/50. Having said that, there is a Maurice Earley pic of 35+36 near Reading in 1944 with what looks very much like an E148 in between! 28 was at Worcester in 1947 but was safely at Bristol by 1950. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I'm still struggling with importing the map onto templot. Joys of running templot through a mac via crossover, or just my incompetence! See here: http://85a.co.uk/forum/view_topic.php?id=1278&forum_id=1&highlight=import+picture Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted August 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2011 I have managed to import several maps into TEMPLOT without problem, once I had mastered the scanning and saving process. I have to admit that it is using windoz xp, but it took several goes before I finally mastered it successfully ( I have been using TEMPLOT for around 6 years or probably more, the grey matter is giving up the ghost in some respects hence the time to master the proccess and how long I have been at it). As and when I upgrade/move on from xp, I shall probably invest in a MAC as these seem to be far more stable and less memory hungry than windoz as well as less chance of being hacked or virused. I have had several viruses that I would NOT have had with MAC despite having anti virus installed which also sucks memory. Cheers SS PS. The latest trial version now allows you to bend the image/map to suit your own particular situation, including reverse curves. I have not tried any of this yet, but there are a few on the TEMPLOT FORUM that have. http://85a.co.uk/for...1510&forum_id=1 http://85a.co.uk/for...forum.php?id=17 There are several members that use MAC computers that use different cross over software with success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium ullypug Posted August 9, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted August 9, 2011 Thanks for the messages. I've now successfully loaded up the station plan and somehow lost the last 3 hours playing!! Apologies to Rich for hijacking the thread. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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