Hornby corroded class 31 chassis

[mikesndbs]

Thanks all, just waiting to hear back, they much have a chassis kicking about somewhere! 

[Derekstuart]

Are you saying that the 60's are affected too? Or is this some other defect? I have been told catagorically by others here that this is not possible... (because it hadn't happened to them that is!)

 

 

I don't want to rub it in chaps (especially Mike) but I am ever more appreciative of my decision to buy old, redundant Lima and stocks of Shawplan stuff instead.

 

 

Regarding my earlier posts , my replacement class 60 and the damaged class 31 body both arrived today,  the body via royal mail and the class 60 via UK Mail .I was also told by Hornby there were no spare chassis

[brittannia]

No. I began my latest post {627} reflecting on my earlier posts on the subject, exchanging the £100 credit note for a Class 60 plus £4.99 with free postage and also getting the class 31 body back. So once again I thought Hornby had  been admiral in their actions regarding the class 31s

[Derekstuart]

Thanks for the info on the 60. Looks clear then. It's a lot of pages to read through and inevitably some gets missed.

 

 

 

No. I began my latest post {627} reflecting on my earlier posts on the subject, exchanging the £100 credit note for a Class 60 plus £4.99 with free postage and also getting the class 31 body back. So once again I thought Hornby had  been admiral in their actions regarding the class 31s

[pheaton]

The problem as I see it.....

 

this issue doesn't just affect 31s I have seen 50s in the early and latter stages of the same problem.....the issue as I see it is Hornby and Bachmann and Heljan simply haven't been transparent enough about the issue that all 3 of the manufacturers models have suffered over the years......

 

Hornby have in my opinion not sacrificed models for replacement chassis, replacement 31 chassis for the Mazak issue I believe have been specially ordered hence the long delays....in addition to this the 31 like the 56 and 50 and 60 is one of the most complicated models I have seen in terms of its construction so I suspect Hornby considered user replacement of the chassis to be beyond the skills of some modellers hence the Return To Base approach.

 

That leave the very well raised point....

 

How long should a model last?

Personally I believe the manufacturers should answer that question......my confidence in Hornby was severely dented when my 31s started to suffer this issue and my attention turned to the 4 sound equipped models I had invested in.

 

All Hornby and indeed the other manufacturers need to do is issue a statement about this......many products have suffered issues in the past....but the consumer confidence as a result of those issue can be relieved by a few simple words and an efficient process.

[jjb1970]

Mazak rot is not a new issue, it has been around for many decades. Railways modellers became aware of it when Mazak chassis construction became the norm but diecast models have suffered from this problem for a lot longer. There does not seem to be any link with source of manufacture, for those who might think it is a sign of poor Chinese quality the big European train manufacturers have suffered from it, including when their production was still in Germany and Austria, and diecast models were suffering it long, long before production moved to China. The fault is not that common, something that does not help if you have a model that is afflicted, I've had a handful of diecasts hit with it and once you discover it then the model is finished. On life of a model, it clearly should be more than six or seven years although equally it is not an open ended the model will never die type of life either. I have never really considered the question. The motor will have a life, things like the transmission will eventually fail and I suspect the main cause of body deterioration will be customer handling and crashes and falls. Nowadays most locomotives have electronics on-board and they will not last forever, a DCC chip is probably to be considered a consumable but if the board blows a component then it is more than swapping out a plug in DCC chip.

On Hornby and others knowing about it, they cannot really know which models they supply will become faulty no more than TV, car, computer, stereo or any other manufacturers can tell you which products will fail in advance. I am not aware of any manufacturers who include data such as warranty return data in their sales brochures or other indicators of durability or quality. Hornby are handling this in a much better way than most other manufacturers I've seen, their £100 voucher along with returning the bodies strikes me as more than fair. For all that Mazak rot should not happen it is not that common and given the choice between an old Lima plastic chassis and pancake motor or a modern Hornby, Bachmann or Heljan equivalent I'd take the risk that the model might be afflicted. And in the case of Hornby at least the manufacturer is looking after its customers if the worst should happen.

[Derekstuart]

All I can say to that is when I stopped railway modelling in the mid 90's I had not heard of this problem.

 

When I came back to it in Sept 2014 I read many problems relating to it.

 

Whether this is caused by QC issues in China, Britain, Germany or South Sudan, I don't know. Or care.

 

All I know is that it is happening and should not. Regardless of whether Hornby (and others) have dealt with it well enough, it is still good for neither them nor the customer.

[jjb1970]

The alternatives are to revert to plastic chassis construction (not desired by many) or move to a material like brass. The reason it was not really known about by UK railway modellers until comparatively recently is that we were not supplied with heavy weight all wheel drive mechanisms that use this material. Despite the scare stories it is not that common, the great majority of models are perfectly fine and if the manufacturer stands behind their product then customers are protected. Like I say, if offered the choice of going back to Hornby Railroad and Lima type offerings or taking a chance that from time to time there will be a bad batch of mazak I'll run the risk. I suspect most modellers will agree but that is clearly just a guess.

[Derekstuart]

Hmm

 

I have a Lima 47 currently in the tuit drawer alongside a Bachmann 47. The Lima one has a twin motor bogie (both those derided 'pancake' motors, which work perfectly well when people can be bothered to service them properly) and the Bachmann is of course the central motor driving both bogies via gear towers.

 

The Lima has a *little* extra weight added to it compared to normal and guess what??? The Lima one is slightly heavier. In a back to back tug of war, the Lima unit romped away with the Bachmann one slipping along behind it.

 

So I am not convinced that there is a need for a metal chassis just to give this supposed better performance due heavier weight.

 

 

You mention that people don't seem to want to go back to plastic. I think some people are assuming that the switch from plastic to metal is what has changed this whole industry. I would suggest that in fact it is only one of many changes.

I will of course let you know the minute that plastic worm causes my Lima 47 to fall to pieces.

EDIT: BTW is there any reason why a loco cannot have a plastic chassis, steel weight AND a central mounted motor driving bogies with gear towers?

Edited January 25, 2015 by Derekstuart

[jjb1970]

I certainly agree that the Mazak chassis is only one part of a much bigger picture in terms of the evolution of models. Whilst I am a fan of those old Lima models and still think they have a place in the Railroad range I also think that they are nothing like as good as modern equivalents from Bachmann, Hornby, Dapol or Heljan. For those that think otherwise then it is clearly a matter of choice and you can pick up the old Lima models second hand or buy the Railroad releases. The motor bogies used by Hornby are massively superior to the old Lima pancake, whilst not as good as their full line models the Railroad motor bogie does give very quiet and smooth performance. Clearly if worries about Mazak are a big issue people can write to the manufacturers asking them to revert to all plastic construction or move to brass construction.

[andyman7]

 

I will of course let you know the minute that plastic worm causes my Lima 47 to fall to pieces.

 

 

Hmm, well I don't want to worry you, but it is possible for poor batches of plastic to go brittle and fail too. The first (UK made!) issue of the Hornby Networker EMU has this problem with the bogie frames, they are designed to snap fit on and off but will shatter if you try and move one or if it gets bashed.

[Derekstuart]

JJB,

I don't know if you do any work to them or you just run them as they are? If the former PERSONALLY I think it is just as easy to start with them as it is with the newer stuff given the amount of work you need to do- but as we've both said, it's a matter of personal choice.

 

 

Andy,

I've just bought a batch of old Lima stuff which must be a MINIMUM of 15 years old. I think that if it hasn't fallen to pieces by now, I'm pretty safe. But I take your point fully.

[mikesndbs]

Hmm

 

I have a Lima 47 currently in the tuit drawer alongside a Bachmann 47. The Lima one has a twin motor bogie (both those derided 'pancake' motors, which work perfectly well when people can be bothered to service them properly) and the Bachmann is of course the central motor driving both bogies via gear towers.

 

The Lima has a *little* extra weight added to it compared to normal and guess what??? The Lima one is slightly heavier. In a back to back tug of war, the Lima unit romped away with the Bachmann one slipping along behind it.

 

So I am not convinced that there is a need for a metal chassis just to give this supposed better performance due heavier weight.

 

 

You mention that people don't seem to want to go back to plastic. I think some people are assuming that the switch from plastic to metal is what has changed this whole industry. I would suggest that in fact it is only one of many changes.

 

I will of course let you know the minute that plastic worm causes my Lima 47 to fall to pieces.

 

EDIT: BTW is there any reason why a loco cannot have a plastic chassis, steel weight AND a central mounted motor driving bogies with gear towers?

 

I so agree with you about the proper servicing of the Lima motor, I now have a once in a lifetime routine worked out and they then run smooth as silk with just regular lubrication and cleaning required! Can you PM me about your double motor set up, I am very interested?

[rob D2]

I don't want to go back to crappy Italian plastic chassis, or their badly running pancakes.

I had about 25 Lima locos and the only one that ran smoothly had the best part of a can if WD40 sprayed in the motor.

 

A couple of locos with Mazak issues and we want to go back to the stone age .......

 

I want CNC milled aluminium chassis......er, with no price rise please.....

[Derekstuart]

I take it that does NOT include emptying a can of water displacement oil into the motor and then wondering why it doesn't work! (anyone daft enough to do that is probably going to find their motor catches light anyway).

 

Of course I can PM you- I will try and take a couple of pictures, but there are people much more skilled than I who have done this.

I so agree with you about the proper servicing of the Lima motor, I now have a once in a lifetime routine worked out and they then run smooth as silk with just regular lubrication and cleaning required! Can you PM me about your double motor set up, I am very interested?

 

 

That's just the point m'lad, they aren't "crappy" as you so eloquently put it. You may not like them and I am really pleased for you on that.

 

I still don't recognise the badly running Lima motor which you refer to, but I wonder if drowning it in "the best part of a can of WD40" might be the problem.... I have already acknowledged the improvement with modern central motors, so I do not believe I need to do so again.

 

I would suggest that the choice of material between plastic and metal is totally incidental to the quality of a chassis. Both will accept detail to the same level.

 

Whilst I happen to prefer the combination I describe, I would never have such hubris to assume that the alternatives are simply "crappy". There are some extremely talented modellers on this, and other forums who would possibly disagree with either you, or me or both. But it is quite wrong to automatically dismiss other viewpoints as "crappy".

 

I don't want to go back to crappy Italian plastic chassis, or their badly running pancakes.
I had about 25 Lima locos and the only one that ran smoothly had the best part of a can if WD40 sprayed in the motor.

A couple of locos with Mazak issues and we want to go back to the stone age .......

I want CNC milled aluminium chassis......er, with no price rise please.....

[mikesndbs]

I don't want to go back to crappy Italian plastic chassis, or their badly running pancakes.

I had about 25 Lima locos and the only one that ran smoothly had the best part of a can if WD40 sprayed in the motor.

 

A couple of locos with Mazak issues and we want to go back to the stone age .......

 

I want CNC milled aluminium chassis......er, with no price rise please.....

 

Come, come Robert! Lima mechanisms are capable of producing excellent running! My Lima class 09 has just been gliding around shunting a train for my Lima class 33s that smoothly headed off with said train.

All that is required to get this is a one off sort out and then re lubing as required.

Here is my own guide to the process. 

Lets have no more dissing of these venerable old locos that gave many of us are only chance of modern image for a very long time indeed.

[Derekstuart]

Mike

 

There was a thread on here about real locos and two posts really caught my eye:

-"It is quite ridiculous to have ONLY X BHP out of 18 cylinders" - when referring to one of the very first mainline diesels every built.... an engineering experiment, and one in which he couldn't understand why they didn't start with the same BHP/ ton that we have now..... like blaming Henry Ford for developing the model T rather than a Focus GTi.

 

- The second one I cannot remember exactly what he said, but it implied that all the modern imported (real) locos were totally infallible and that EE, Brush, BRCW etc could not have made a sewing machine if their lives depended upon it. He was totally oblivious to, for example, the fact that about 18% of all Brush 4's were still operating with many mainline cleared.

 

The point to those comments, and especially the second, is that some people automatically assume that modern=better. I could suggest that there are a number of modern items that prove this is not always (sometimes but not always) the case. I will refrain from the argument about the 31, and suggest that you go over a Lima 47 with a copy of the original blue prints and compare to the Bachmann 47.

 

 

I would suggest that part of the problem with the comments from people like Rob is that there are two types of RTR modeller- there are ones who "work" alongside detailers and modifiers, neither agreeing nor disagreeing with them and then there are the box openers who cannot comprehend the idea of doing anything other than opening and sticking on track.

[mikesndbs]

Mike

 

There was a thread on here about real locos and two posts really caught my eye:

 

-"It is quite ridiculous to have ONLY X BHP out of 18 cylinders" - when referring to one of the very first mainline diesels every built.... an engineering experiment, and one in which he couldn't understand why they didn't start with the same BHP/ ton that we have now..... like blaming Henry Ford for developing the model T rather than a Focus GTi.

 

- The second one I cannot remember exactly what he said, but it implied that all the modern imported (real) locos were totally infallible and that EE, Brush, BRCW etc could not have made a sewing machine if their lives depended upon it. He was totally oblivious to, for example, the fact that about 18% of all Brush 4's were still operating with many mainline cleared.

 

The point to those comments, and especially the second, is that some people automatically assume that modern=better. I could suggest that there are a number of modern items that prove this is not always (sometimes but not always) the case. I will refrain from the argument about the 31, and suggest that you go over a Lima 47 with a copy of the original blue prints and compare to the Bachmann 47.

 

 

I would suggest that part of the problem with the comments from people like Rob is that there are two types of RTR modeller- there are ones who "work" alongside detailers and modifiers, neither agreeing nor disagreeing with them and then there are the box openers who cannot comprehend the idea of doing anything other than opening and sticking on track.

 

 

I do agree, however I think Rob was just having a laugh with us and no harm was intended.

I really don't like the way sometimes hobbies become a reason for unpleasantness, we all have our likes and dislikes but what I have to do is jump in when things look unfair.

 

Here is an example, just been enjoying my Lima 09 as stated, plus my original simple Hornby 08. Great runners and many memories as I had them when I was just a kid.

Now we have the new Hornby 08 and OH MY GOD they are so stunning, you get the feeling if you could be shrunk you'd be able to climb into the cab and drive off, their performance is also stunning without any doubt.

But would I trade in my two old pals for one of these? not on your life!

 

Getting back to the 31 I asked Hornby for an update today as have not heard anything, still keeping everything crossed but kind of preparing for the horrid news that looks likely

Edited January 26, 2015 by mikesndbs

[rob D2]

ooh, Derek , I'm a box opener now - the ultimate insult has been thrown !

seems you have had a sense of humour bypass - regardless of how your Lima works , the fact remains , mine were all " crappy " - fact. I don't care how you fettle yours, I got rid of them a decade ago and I'm not going back.

 

you also misread what I said - the only one that ran well HAD a can of WD40 sprayed in it.... in desperation, that or binning it.

 

there's no denying the " crappy " ness of its construction either - what was that crude metal weight made of ? depleted uranium ?

and the hideousness of that feeble earthing wire to feeble clip attached to feeble bogie....

" crappy " , " crappy " with a side salad of " crappy "

I'm glad you like yours, but please don't assume everyone should

[Derekstuart]

What a very bizarre comment.

 

I have my viewpoint, but I also accept that other people have theirs.

 

But I would not be so full of hubris as to assume that I have to sole monopoly on being correct and that I would have such disregard for viewpoints of others.

 

You are a strange individual and I really do not think we can possibly contribute anything of worth to eachother's knowledge, so perhaps we can leave it there.

 

ooh, Derek , I'm a box opener now - the ultimate insult has been thrown !
seems you have had a sense of humour bypass - regardless of how your Lima works , the fact remains , mine were all " crappy " - fact. I don't care how you fettle yours, I got rid of them a decade ago and I'm not going back.

you also misread what I said - the only one that ran well HAD a can of WD40 sprayed in it.... in desperation, that or binning it.

there's no denying the " crappy " ness of its construction either - what was that crude metal weight made of ? depleted uranium ?
and the hideousness of that feeble earthing wire to feeble clip attached to feeble bogie....
" crappy " , " crappy " with a side salad of " crappy "
I'm glad you like yours, but please don't assume everyone should

[rob D2]

obviously you don't otherwise you wouldn't make snide insinuations about there being two types of modeller - you obviously consider yourself in some way superior ? some form of model related snobbery ?

 

you are clearly a very humourless, uptight individual so I'll leave it at that .

[Derekstuart]

Hardly. Most of my comments (in terms of modelling- which doesn't include trading comments with people such as yourself) are ME asking THEM for advice, rather than the other way around.

 

I have said on several occasions that I think there is merit in my method, but don't recall tell anyone else that their stuff is "cr4ppy"- nor do I recall repeating it as many times as possible in a single sentence like a small child would.

 

I have a sense of humour, like most people do. I just don't find your offensive remarks all that funny. Certainly I am not impressed if that's what you're aiming for.

 

But I am more than happy for us to leave it there. I regret becoming involved with discussions like this. There are far too many people with this sneering contempt for anyone with a different viewpoint to their own.

[pheaton]

I think the point that needs to be made is....

 

When the lima stuff came out, like the 37 and 47 there was no such thing as a model railway can motor....so it was lima....or Hornby and both motors equally had issues, having said that I could run a full length lima HST with little issues but at the same time some of my 31s were quite literally terrible....but then this is like comparing a 64 plate ford fiesta with a ford fiesta mk1, the mk1 when it came out was very good for its market but now the 64 plate one is much better......

 

The lima products fitted well within their time-frame, time moves on but the model doesent.....you can either replace your model with an expensive (by comparison) Bachmann/Hornby/vitrains one or you can persevere especially if you have spent time detailing it.....

 

if you happy with a model theres no need to get rid..... case in point....

 

 

both 31s are powered and are lima! yes ok they dont have all the bells and whistles of the Hornby model....but am i going splash 200 quid on Hornby 31s to respray them......no

 

the model world is going nuts people quick to point out how poor a model is based on the most rediculous of points.....like the first edition Heljan 33.....the shoulder is wrong.....oh terrible it should be consigned to the list of model world failures.....you must buy the new improved version......WHY?????? is this because i might have trouble recognizing my old 33 is really a 33?

 

is plastic better than mazak or vice versa....there on a par if they are designed correctly....they can do the job just as well as each other, true plastic doesent have the weight but that can be fixed...with a weight.....ive no idea why someone would argue a weighted chassis is any worse or any better than a chassis that is made of metal and acts as a weight....as for the argument plastic goes brittle....oh very true....theres one small flaw in that argument though......

 

ive yet to see a common rtr loco that has body thats not made of plastic even the ones with the super duper mazak chassis!!!!

 

So to summarise of my loco collection (around 130 locos) probably about 15 of them are lima based (mostly 31s) yes they are best lima chassis i can find and if not they are Hornby replacements! i have 2 rakes of lima load 9 Mk3s and a rake of lima PGAs and a rake of lima tip hooks.....no issue with these for the age they are a good model...

 

And thats my point.....the lima models are good for there age, that doesent make me a lima fanboy i just cant see the point of replacing a perfectly working model which is a reasonable representation of the prototype and works well....

 

as brian johnson of ac/dc once sang.......ive got better things to do with my money!

Edited January 26, 2015 by pheaton

[Derekstuart]

A very well put and well balanced viewpoint, Pheaton.

 

What people like rob fail to appreciate from my "argument" is that I HAVE bought Bachmann new (nothing from Hornby) and have a good balance of new stuff, particularly steam. But it was the 47 that I found very off-putting. The number of errors is quite substantial and I decided it was less work to put the Lima model right. Also the Lima stuff takes a P4 conversion a hell of a lot easier than Bachmann, but I digress.

 

But it was more the un-sustainable business model used by bach-by that put me off. It is the poor supply that they have- either by bad planning or more likely by design in order to keep demand ahead of supply and thus command high prices, that really put me off.

 

As an aside, I am not sure that the current business model is conducive to bringing in the next generation of modellers, but that again is an opinion only.

[tractor_37260]

I think the point that needs to be made is....

 

When the lima stuff came out, like the 37 and 47 there was no such thing as a model railway can motor....so it was lima....or Hornby and both motors equally had issues, having said that I could run a full length lima HST with little issues but at the same time some of my 31s were quite literally terrible....but then this is like comparing a 64 plate ford fiesta with a ford fiesta mk1, the mk1 when it came out was very good for its market but now the 64 plate one is much better......

 

The lima products fitted well within their time-frame, time moves on but the model doesent.....you can either replace your model with an expensive (by comparison) Bachmann/Hornby/vitrains one or you can persevere especially if you have spent time detailing it.....

 

if you happy with a model theres no need to get rid..... case in point....

 

 

both 31s are powered and are lima! yes ok they dont have all the bells and whistles of the Hornby model....but am i going splash 200 quid on Hornby 31s to respray them......no

 

the model world is going nuts people quick to point out how poor a model is based on the most rediculous of points.....like the first edition Heljan 33.....the shoulder is wrong.....oh terrible it should be consigned to the list of model world failures.....you must buy the new improved version......WHY?????? is this because i might have trouble recognizing my old 33 is really a 33?

 

is plastic better than mazak or vice versa....there on a par if they are designed correctly....they can do the job just as well as each other, true plastic doesent have the weight but that can be fixed...with a weight.....ive no idea why someone would argue a weighted chassis is any worse or any better than a chassis that is made of metal and acts as a weight....as for the argument plastic goes brittle....oh very true....theres one small flaw in that argument though......

 

ive yet to see a common rtr loco that has body thats not made of plastic even the ones with the super duper mazak chassis!!!!

 

So to summarise of my loco collection (around 130 locos) probably about 15 of them are lima based (mostly 31s) yes they are best lima chassis i can find and if not they are Hornby replacements! i have 2 rakes of lima load 9 Mk3s and a rake of lima PGAs and a rake of lima tip hooks.....no issue with these for the age they are a good model...

 

And thats my point.....the lima models are good for there age, that doesent make me a lima fanboy i just cant see the point of replacing a perfectly working model which is a reasonable representation of the prototype and works well....

 

 Interesting sounding 37  - is it a Howes 37/9 that's fitted ?