BR Western Region rolling stock question

[GreenDiesel]

I think I've pretty much figured this out but wanted to confirm it here. I've researched on the web a little as well as consulted my train magazines & books.

 

-- I believe the WR would have used a BR version of their "chocolate & cream" coaches, but that some of the GWR chocolate & cream coaches would also have been used during the early BR (1948-55) period

-- during the early BR period, the WR would have used a mixture of "chocolate & cream coaches" as well as the new BR "blood & custard" coaches

-- during the late BR steam period (1956-66), the WR would have used a mixture of "chocolate & cream coaches" and the newer maroon BR coaches. Some WR trains may have used BR maroon coaches only.

 

Could you please let me know if this is generally correct?

 

Thanks,

Rob

[Taz]

Hi Rob,

 

You are pretty much there.

 

From nationalisation to 1956 the official scheme for coaches was "blood and custard". Of course it would have taken a while for all the GWR chocolate and cream coaches to have been repainted but I would have thought they would have been rare after about 1951/2. Non corridor stock would normally have been plain crimson (although there were exceptions which received "blood and custard" and others which would have stayed in their GWR colours for a few years after nationalisation). Any BR MK1 stock, built from 1951 onwards would have been in "blood and custard" in this period.

 

In 1956 the offical scheme changed to maroon. Also at this time the Western decided to outshop its premier express rakes in the BR version of chocolate and cream. These were all MK1 rakes apart from the catering vehicles which were ex GW types painted to match.

So from 1956 onwards you could see crimson and cream, maroon and chocolate and cream coaches on the WR.

The chocolate and cream sets tended to be kept in matching sets until the colour sceme was abandoned in 1962 although it wasn't unusual to see spare coaches swapped out or used in non premier express duties. In fact I have several pictures of rakes with a mix of all 3 colour schemes present.

 

The further you move into the late 50's and 60's the lesser proportion of stock would have remained in crimson and cream until it was all but extinct by about 1962 I believe.

 

In addtion to the premier express rakes of Mk1s the western also painted other, spcialist, coaches in chocolate and cream. These included the Ocean Liner Saloons, Inspection saloons, measurement coaches and VIP Saloons.

 

Cheers.

[Mallard60022]

Think you have it.

P

[chrisf]

Rob

 

Taz can type more quickly than I can and has said more or less what I was going to say!

 

Chris

[GreenDiesel]

Thanks for these fast replies! Much appreciated, Rob

[keefer]

maybe someone will know for definite, but i think on BR(WR) post 1956, mk1 catering vehicles only ever carried maroon.

as stated above any choc/cream catering vehicles would be GWR design

[Silver Sidelines]

Rob,

 

In this instance I am happy to trust Bachman who have produced a range of western region BR Mk1 catering vehicles in both choclate and cream and marroon, including both the restaurant car unclasssified and the newer miniature buffet. As you are probably aware the Bachmann models include the dates on the solebar showing when they were last outshopped. For example my Western Region maroon RU has the date 02.03.61. My chocolate and cream RU has the date 25.01.60 while the chocolate and cream RMB has the date 13.08.63.

 

I have in mind a black and white picture in Trains Illustrated / Modern Railways from around 1962 when the first RMBs were introduced on the BR Wester Region in chocolate and cream.

 

Regards Ray

[Rugd1022]

According to Robert Carroll of this parish, no RMBs ever received chocolate and cream livery so Bachmann's model is incorrect on that score, they did carry maroon though. The 'roof tank' version of Bachmann's RU is correct in chocolate and cream livery, although one of the windows is slightly too small.

 

Edit : just to qualify the above, I think Robert's article on the subject appeared in issue 100 of Model Rail.

 

Edit (2!) : just checked... definitely no RMBs in choc & cream, only one RF, one RSO, five RBs and 16 RUs.

 

[craigwelsh]

maybe someone will know for definite, but i think on BR(WR) post 1956, mk1 catering vehicles only ever carried maroon.

as stated above any choc/cream catering vehicles would be GWR design

The namers got mk1 catering stock before choc/cream was abandoned.

 

Nidge was that the article on WR named trains or one on choc cream livery in general? The named train article had formations listed for different years anyway which tells you what you need to buy really.

 

There is an RMB in crimson/cream also produced by Bachmann, obviously a preservation job as they weren't built until that livery had gone, no doubt the paint date on that one is something like '55 though..

[keefer]

sorry for the duff post above!

i'd misread info, which stated the 1951 (anthracite) types went into 'secondary services' maroon, presumably cos they were less liked/easy to use than the later (propane) vehicles

[Silver Sidelines]

I have checked my old Modern Railways, and yes I would make a terrible witness. The picture I had in mind was an experimental self service catering vehicle used on the Cambrian Coast Express:

 

 

As to the RMB types I came across this article:

 

 

There is mention of different interior colours but no mention of external liveries.

 

Regards

 

Ray

[Rugd1022]

The namers got mk1 catering stock before choc/cream was abandoned.

 

Nidge was that the article on WR named trains or one on choc cream livery in general? The named train article had formations listed for different years anyway which tells you what you need to buy really.

 

There is an RMB in crimson/cream also produced by Bachmann, obviously a preservation job as they weren't built until that livery had gone, no doubt the paint date on that one is something like '55 though..

 

Hi Craig, the article I had in mind was specifically about the catering vehicles in BR days.... I'm pretty sure it was issue 100 of Model Rail

[chrisf]

When the WR introduced chocolate and cream for named trains in 1956 there were hardly any BR standard catering vehicles. Apart from the 1951 RF+RSO pairs, all on the WR, there were the 1951 triplets which had largely fallen from grace and the three prototypes - RB, RKB and RU. Quantity production of thr RU began in 1957 and the WR received several in chocolate and cream. The first trains to receive them were the Capitals United, Torbay Express, Cornishman and Royal Duchy. The Cornish Riviera soldiered on with GW catering cars until summer 1961 and the Red Dragon had to wait until January 1962 - just three months before the decision was taken to abandon chocolate and cream!

 

Needless to say the supersession of choocolate and cream was not immediate and piebald sets were a frequent occurrence for the next couple of years.

 

Chris

[GreenDiesel]

I have a rake of 3 Lima WR coaches. They do not contain the GWR emblem but do have a "W" (for the WR) before their carriage number. So I think these must represent some of the post-1956 WR coaches. I could post some pix later on. As far as I can tell, they don't look a whole lot different from GWR coaches.

 

FYI, my 00 layout basically depicts Wellow Station on the Somerset & Dorset line in the late-50s / early-60s. Occasionally, I like to run some of my WR stock on it, hence these questions.

[Kris]

I have a rake of 3 Lima WR coaches. They do not contain the GWR emblem but do have a "W" (for the WR) before their carriage number. So I think these must represent some of the post-1956 WR coaches. I could post some pix later on. As far as I can tell, they don't look a whole lot different from GWR coaches.

 

Many ex GWR coaches had the emblem removed well before they were repainted to blood / cream or maroon, so yours could represent some of these.

[Taz]

Did Lima produce any GWR coaches? Or will these be Mk1s, in which case they represent the stock used on the premier expresses after 1956.

[Kris]

Having looked this up, they are likely to be MK1's Brian. Apparently though these were at times produced in GWR livery!

[Il Grifone]

Lima coches will be BR Mk Is (in this case in post 1956 chocolate and cream) They shouldn't have any GWR markings (though Lima produced some in GWR livery - incorrectly these are BR vehicles dating from 1951 onwards), but chocolate and cream coaches should have the BR carriage emblem (ferret and dartboard type), which adorned coaches intended for named trains* (there may have been some without, but it was the general rule - made to be broken of course).

*As was the chocolate and cream livery. The WR named lots of trains to give an excuse for using this livery. It goes very well with dark green locos, which also appeared in profusion about this time - usually lined, even when the GWR didn't bother - but then, it was taxpayer's money.

 

Theoretically they wouldn't have appeared on the S & D, but it was not uncommon for chocolate and cream coaches to be seen in general service.

 

Edit for spelling/finger trouble.

[GreenDiesel]

Lima coches will be BR Mk Is (in this case in post 1956 chocolate and cream) They shouldn't have any GWR markings (though Lima produced some in GWR livery - incorrectly these are BR vehicles dating from 1951 onwards), but chocolate and cream coaches should have the BR carriage emblem (ferret and dartboard type), which adorned coaches intended for named trains* (there may have been some without, but it was the general rule - made to be broken of course).

*As was the chocolate and cream livery. The WR named lots of trains to give an excuse for using this livery. It goes very well with dark green locos, which also appeared in profusion about this time - usually lined, even when the GWR didn't bother - but then, it was taxpayer's money.

 

Theorectically they wouldn't have appeared on the S & D, but it was not uncommon for chocolate and cream coaches to be seen in general service.

 

Thanks. Yes, I was wondering why the late BR emblem was not on the side of the coaches. When I run my WR stock, I'm simply running the layout in a "WR mode". When I do that, I'm not really thinking of it as the S&D with WR trains on it but simply as a WR line.

[Donw]

It is a sad fact that as a lad I saw lots of these at Reading but rather ignored coaches and concentrated on the locos. However I do seem to remember that a lot of the catering facilities were in coaches of a different style to the MK1s and therefore were usually ex GWR types. Father-in-law had the pleasure of being 'slipped' off the up Torbay express now that would have been a treat!

Warning to any young lads get out and record everything now.

Don

[GreenDiesel]

Thanks for this feedback.

 

Here's another related question. A few years ago, I bought a Bachmann 0-6-0 Collett goods logo in GWR livery. I wanted to update it to the late-BR period, so I simply removed the shirt-button GWR emblem and replaced it with a late-BR one. AFAIK, this Is this correct but are there other livery details I should change as well?

 

Cheers,

Rob

[Karhedron]

It varies. In the BR period the Collett Goods (or 2251 class) received various liveries. Initially most of the class were painted plain black. After 1956 some of the class started receiving lined green livery. Later still some were repainted in unlined green livery.

 

If you want to be strictly accurate the best thing to do is to find a photo of a 2251 in unlined green and base your model on that. Not all the class received this livery, some ending their days in lined green or black.

 

The other thing you will need is the smokebox numberplate which was added after nationalisation.

 

One candidate would be preserved 3205 which has worn this livery. However whether it also wore it in service I do not know.

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/taffytank/4860265960/

[Adrian Wintle]

If it is in unlined green, then the main things would be to remove the numbers from the bufferbeam and add a smokebox door numberplate.

 

Adrian

[GreenDiesel]

It varies. In the BR period the Collett Goods (or 2251 class) received various liveries. Initially most of the class were painted plain black. After 1956 some of the class started receiving lined green livery. Later still some were repainted in unlined green livery.

 

If you want to be strictly accurate the best thing to do is to find a photo of a 2251 in unlined green and base your model on that. Not all the class received this livery, some ending their days in lined green or black.

 

The other thing you will need is the smokebox numberplate which was added after nationalisation.

 

One candidate would be preserved 3205 which has worn this livery. However whether it also wore it in service I do not know.

 

http://www.flickr.co...ank/4860265960/

 

 

Thanks, Karhedron & Adrian. I think I'm at least close enough with this model then & could add the other details later. Yes, it is unlined green. It should be easy enough to remove the numbers from the bufferbeam & I'll see if I can add the number to the smokebox door.

 

Cheers, Rob

[BernardTPM]

The other thing to watch with 2251 class is the tender. The preserved 3205 (one of the later built examples) has the later Collett 3500 gallon, but most of the class had an older style of tender, more Churchward than Collett in appearance. Tenders swapped around when engines were overhauled.