Yellow warning panels on tube trains

[Jim Martin]

Having just spent a day in Our Nation's Great Capital, I was wondering why it is that London Underground trains don't have yellow warning panels on the ends. I thought that it was a legal requirement, but is it an ex-BR thing that got carried on by Network Rail? I was travelling on the westernmost bits of the District Line, which is all above ground and really not very different in nature to, say, the South London lines.

 

Any ideas?

 

Jim

[PhilJ W]

London Underground is not part of Network Rail and is therefore not required to paint the ends of their stock yellow. There are some places were London Transport and Network Rail run on each others tracks. In such instances London Transport has a dispensation to run stock on Network Rail with red painted ends. London Transport also runs stock without red or yellow ends but not in passenger service. Quite recently Metropolitan line 'A' stock units have been sent to Upminster depot for wheel turning and some traveled with the leading cab painted plain white or white/blue. The 'A' stock is usually formed of 2X4 car units with the inner cabs out of use (they have no door controls) but the units a capable of being driven from any cab.

[Edwin_m]

LU does its maintenance at night so wouldn't normally have staff on the track while service trains are running. Visibility to track workers is the main reason for yellow ends on Network Rail.

[Oldddudders]

I suspect the presence of the fourth rail in the 4' way, combined with the frequency of services, has long meant that staff actually on the track in daylight are far fewer than on the National Network.

[trisonic]

Not only that, Ian, but in the dark of a tunnel it doesn't really matter what colour the paint is at the front. Just supposition on my part.

 

Best, Pete.

[£1.38]

The number of level crossings is quite small too, I would imagine - not many unguarded footpath level crossings on the Circle Line!

[Edwin_m]

That's a good point - according to the Quail map there aren't even any on the outer reaches of the Met.

[PhilJ W]

That's a good point - according to the Quail map there aren't even any on the outer reaches of the Met.

The only crossing on the entire LU network was at North Weald, this was taken out of use some time before the Epping-Ongar branch closed.

[Southernman46]

But a lot of the stock actually carries red on the unit ends (?) - a practice verboten on the National Network

[phil-b259]

I think the main reason is more due to the date when LU adopted electric traction. At that time (1910 ish) nobody batted an eyelid that that electric trains were a lot quieter than steam - track workers were expected to look after themselves regardless of the type of traction employed and this remained the case ever after. Similarly when the Southern railway startred electfifying its lines it did not see the need for yellow ends, again trackworkers were expected to adapt to the new silent trains. It was only when BR went diesel on mass that yellow came in - presumably driven by trackworker acidents / near misses - and even then it was not a requirement as such, just a coperate decision. It wasn't untill privitisation that yellow ends on the mainline was actually formalised into a specific standard to be met by all train opperators (with the exception of steam and LU units which could be red)

[Grovenor]

Yellow ends also pre-dated daytime headlamps, now that headlamps are mandatory the yellow ends are really just a hangover of very little value.

Regards

Keith

[phil-b259]

Yellow ends also pre-dated daytime headlamps, now that headlamps are mandatory the yellow ends are really just a hangover of very little value.

Regards

Keith

 

As a trackworker, I disagree. In my experence no amount of high intensity headlights can replace the distinctive and easly identifyable lump of yellow that indicates an approching train especially when you are trying to judge the trains speed and therefore determine how far away it is and more impotantly how fast it is approching. OK it may not look prety and yes other opperators may not see the need for it but that doesn't mean it has no value and should be got rid of.

[trisonic]

I agree with Phil. I noticed with American locos that, yes, you see the light from miles away but you can't see anything else and you can't judge the speed/how fast they are approching until they are almost on top of you.......I thought it was my eyes...

 

Best, Pete.

[Bon Accord]

I agree with Phil. I noticed with American locos that, yes, you see the light from miles away but you can't see anything else and you can't judge the speed/how fast they are approching until they are almost on top of you.......I thought it was my eyes...

 

Best, Pete.

 

Surely the best course of action in that instance is to get everyone into the cess and then examine again, rather than risk it?

[trisonic]

Dunno, I was on an overbridge! Just taking photographs. I think the MOW guys are linked by radio - I hope so anyway.

 

Best, Pete.

[Matloughe]

The red also may be a hangover from the past on LT. The first electric trains were painted Scarlet, and for a long period until the demise of 1938 stock LT was served by red painted trains I read somewhere the reign of unpainted stock lasted only a few months before livery experimentation to 'hide' the graffiti issues begun.

 

Regarding Metropolitan A Stock the unpainted cab ends are ones not fitted with OPO equipment hence they are not painted - it was the same on 1967 Stock for the Victoria Line middle driving cabs were not equipped generally. There is always a float of double ended units to make up trains if you have an excess of A or D end units. Also it does reflect the colour scheme for the roundels, Red, White & Blue - how patriotic.

 

cheers,

~ Gary

[big jim]

That's a good point - according to the Quail map there aren't even any on the outer reaches of the Met.

 

 

there are 2 foot crossings north of amersham, neither are on the electrified bit though.

 

also you would be surprised just how many pw staff you do actually see in the day at least on the met.

 

regards the headlights isnt the reason new traction has 3 lights is to make the distance easier to judge for trackworkers?

[phil-b259]

 

Surely the best course of action in that instance is to get everyone into the cess and then examine again, rather than risk it?

 

On busy multiple track lines that could well mean you never get anything done given the frequency of trains. Its a fact that those sitting in the ivory towers don't realise when drawing up their safety rules not helped by another lot of people whose only concern seems to be productivity and the ammount of jobs in backlog completley ignoring whether we can do it within said safety rules.

 

regards the headlights isnt the reason new traction has 3 lights is to make the distance easier to judge for trackworkers?

 

That might be the case however they are still not as effective as a slab of yellow.

[Les Bird]

.......... I read somewhere the reign of unpainted stock lasted only a few months before livery experimentation to 'hide' the graffiti issues begun.

 

It was a bit more than a few months. I think you could count the unpainted aluminium style in decades.

[ess1uk]

having worked on the "Underground" and now up on top it is much easier to see a proper train with yellow ends and lights than it is to see a "Tube" train.

you can sometimes see the headight for miles away and still not be sure if it is just a reflection, but when it starts to be more yellow you know it's time to move.

Yes we mostly worked along side the track at night in engineering hours on the LU network, but still had jobs where we had no choice but to go trackside durring the day to get to relay rooms etc and with the frequency of the trains on the "underground" it was not that much fun. I had one job where we were messing with kit on the sleepers in a station durring the day using a train as protection and causing big delays to the circle line! In the tubes it was always night time working unless it was a real emergency and we would stop a tube and shut down the juice for a few minutes to do a repair before getting back on and powering up again.

i much prefer to be out with the big trainset though and seeing daylight.

[Matloughe]

 

It was a bit more than a few months. I think you could count the unpainted aluminium style in decades.

 

This is ambiguous so some extent I'll admit, what I meant is the reign of entirely unpainted aluminium stock was brief compared to what has come before and since, the 1938 stock was retired during 1988 from service on the Bakerloo Line, and from what I have found on a brief search and the A60/62 stock I think was the first fleet to be given a refurbishment and repaint from 1993 onwards. So technically the reign of entirely unpainted stock was only somewhere in the order of five years before a livery was applied again. I know that D78 stock was in unrefurbished condition until 2006/7 - I miss the interiors they were much more homely then the refurbished interiors.

 

As an aside the 1973 & D78 stocks had red panels on the front in unrefurbished condition - could this have been the first attempt at warning panels on LT? I do know a couple of 1959 stocks were experimentally given the lower red panels on cab fronts but the experiment was not continued with.

 

I shall stop rambling now and get on with some modelling.

Cheers,

~ Gary

[Gwiwer]

Unpainted aluminium tube stock first appeared with the introduction of the second and third of three prototype trains of 1956 stock, forerunners of the huge fleets of 1959 and 1962 stock. The last of the R stock (R59 cars only) was delivered as unpainted aluminium. All earlier R stock and the first 1956 stock train were eventually repainted from red to "silver"

 

The A stock was more or less contemporaneous with those large tube stock deliveries. Visibility of trains then was no better than it had been from the earliest days and possibly worse. A meagre two incandescent bulbs marked the front of a train as the need for 4 and 5-light headcode indications had ceased thanks to the arrival of programme machines in the control rooms.

 

Not until the advent of the 1967 tube stock did anything "underground" get powerful twin headlights; A stock was retrofitted with them at refurbishment but the 1959 and 1962 stocks never gained them.

 

The "unpainted" era lasted for over 20 years and not for just a few months. The rise of "tagging" and graffiti in general during the 1970s and 1980s saw trains painted in a variety of styles using red, white and blue. One scheme was quickly settled on which is still in use today. Prior to the wholesale painting of aluminium stock two cars of 1962 tube stock on the Central Line (of which 1422 was one IIRC) gained half-red front end panels. This was advertised at the time on station posters as public opinion was sought to ascertain if they were more readily visible than unpainted cars.

 

Clearly there was a consensus that the red ends were more visible as they were adopted as LT / LU fleet standard and quickly applied. The D78 stock was the first to be delivered new with them.

 

Whether yellow was ever considered is a question which might only be answered if someone in on the original decision to experiment with red were to step forward and confirm what might have been discussed behind closed doors.

 

The derogation under which LU trains operate over NR tracks with half red front ends has been discussed above as has the history of the yellow end. Until the late 1960s / early 1970s there were no yellow ends and it was normal to find red or "silver" underground trains sharing tracks with green BR dmus and emus none of which had any form of visual warning for track staff. It was always your duty to look out for yourself and for others when on or about the track as indeed it still is.

 

High intensity headlights give an indication that a train is approaching and can often be seen even against a rising or setting sun but they are not a good indicator of speed or distance. As an example there are places here in Australia where the headlight can be seen approaching for over 30 minutes at night, and around 15 minutes by day, before the train arrives, such is the straight and flat nature of some lines. The throb of several lashed-up locomotives can also be heard for a considerable time before the train arrives if there is little other ambient sound.

[Trog]

I have always liked a large area of yellow on a loco. Easy to see and as it moves under structures and OHL masts the movement of the shadows tells you if the train is moving and in which direction. In an ideal world I would have a bright headlamp (one will do), on a yellow fronted unit.

[Matloughe]

I think I am not being clear on my terminology about "the reign of solely unpainted aluminuim stock being between 1988-1993." It doesn't matter any how its slightly OT. I was however thinking the new Asset Inspection Train or AIT as it is known in LU terminology is formed of a 1972 Mark I stock train - compared to the current Track Recording train which is formed of 1960 stock sandwiching a modified 1973 stock trailer, the new AIT has a yellow front end.

 

Not sure on copywright issues so I have linked to the image on flicker, here at South Ealing Test Track

 

I must say compared to a normal 1972 Mark II Stock train the yellow end looks rather odd.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary

[PhilJ W]

I would suggest posing this question on the 'District Dave' forum, there are plenty on there who can give you the answer.