SXHALL Posted October 17, 2011 Share Posted October 17, 2011 I have not got to try this yet but for my shelved (but not forgotten) 2011 entry 'Bishopsgate Goods' entry I was considering the following.... Find a cheap (very) N gauge running loco on Ebay, preferably something small Find a suitable wagon in OO gauge big enough to contain the motor etc, most likely a box van Hack together the two to form an abomination (!) Add pickups to the wagon wheels and hopefully wahey! As I said not got this far yet as time and funds are short at the minute, was even wondering if DCC would be possible to allow shunting! Compromise is that they would mysteriously move (hopefully) on there own but I could not see any other way around it, especially as it would be below ground and awkward to reach otherwise. Excellent concept too BTW. Steven Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 17, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2011 Steven, If all you need the N gauge logo for is to provide a motor, these (the motor) can be bought for a reasonable sum as new, low geared items, then just use a simple rubber band to drive a pulley wheel on the wagon axle. See here (DC Gear Motor) (usual disclaimer). I'm hoping to use standard wagons that can be marshalled into a normal train (on the ground level), if and when this layout is incorporated into my 'grand scheme'. (So why don't I take my own advice and build my own little shunter loco....) Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Worsdell forever Posted October 17, 2011 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 17, 2011 This is the kind of thing you need. taken at Shildon 2006. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
49395 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 If I make the wagon turntables suitably big enough, I'll be able to get both the wagon and the loco on the table together, so will be able to shunt the wagons properly into the bays, removing the need for complex (& hidden) mechanical methods. So, do I go for an offset three rail track , or a full inset 4 rail track ? Stu A 4 rail wagon turntable will be really difficult to get right, I had enough trouble with a 2 rail one. There are an awful lot of gaps and small bits of rail required... Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 18, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 Thanks for that Mike. Though thinking about this further, if there is only 1 loco in steam (ok battery) and that loco is used to manoever the wagons both between the turntables and also from the tables into the bays, then I'd only need to make the turntables have one set of tracks - i wouldn't need the cross tracks. Which makes the whole concept a lot simpler. Edit - the tables are not to scale on this diagram ! They will need to be as big as a loco + wagon. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I would go 3 track, 1 common rail and the others to gauge, look like broad/standard gauge track. This would also keep the sides of both broad and narrow gauge stock close to the loading platform(s) especially if there's vans for both gauges. Might be confusing to line up the track if you use the turntables (t/t) to reverse the direction of the loco wagon though, presumably there's a local instruction thatstates 'engine must always exit stage left first'. Thus t/t only has to turn through 90degs max., all day. PS - I think I might have been able to explain my thoughts a bit better than this, but jobs to be done, dogs to walk..... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SXHALL Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Never thought of creating from scratch really. I'm not very electronically minded so be able to 'rob' all I need seemed a simpler way. Looks like a learning curve is in order for me then . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonB Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 You haven't said what depth (front to back) you want / need/ have room for the layout. Your sketch indicates that your loco will venture into the "Tunnels", bearing this in mind I estimate that allowing for a wagon with 40mm (scale 10ft) wheel base (= 80mm overall) and a small loco with 32mm (scale 8ft) wheel base (= 60mm overall) plus couplings, you need a T/T about 180mm dia. plus say 20 mm from front edge, plus say 50mm to make the wagon "disappear" plus 180mm to park the wagon and loco, total about 420mm (18"-ish) No doubt you will have worked that out for yourself! I've been racking the grey matter, without success, trying to offer a sensible solution to the problem of control from the end complicated by the two T/Ts and "tunnels" interfering with each other's (rotation and uncoupling) control mechanisms. The idea of using the loco seems as simple as it gets! If the front to back depth is too much, you could possibly just use small radius points and have the "tunnels" at an angle, although I do like the T/T design. Sorry if this sounds negative! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 18, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 Don, I'd not got as far as actually calculating the dept of layout needed, but I was guessing 2ft would be enough, so 18" sounds ideal. I do want the wagons to disappear into a dark area at the back of the level (yes, there will be lights to help the little people, but I want the bays to be dark too). The tunrtables will be quite large, as you suggest, plus I'll need four all together, two for each level. I'm not over convinced that the loco is the best option - I'm considering a device which runs on a narrow gauge track, but goes under the wagon, rather than at one end - this way I could keep the t/t relatively small. It would need to be scratch built, using a N gauge bogie & tiny motor, but it would only need to move one wagon so could be quite small. I know there was some sort of similar device at Par docks to move short trains of China Clay wagons on & off the loading lines. Stu Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Sidecar Racer Posted October 18, 2011 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Stu , how about a variation on one of these , A bit of building up for buffing and coupling gear , and nice and compact . It could have a deisel engine of suitable size hidden away and the exhaust would exit through a water box to avoid any sparks . I have seen deisel fork lifts used in expolosive factory high risk areas fitted this way , so it would make it prototypical for the enviroment . Cheers . Or even DIESEL . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 18, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 Superb !! All I have to do now is make one.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 I think this idea will have to be completely ignored then Stu... http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/46305-car-driven-rail-truck-1962-youtube/page__fromsearch__1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonB Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 You could by-pass the need for a motorised wagon moving device, all you need is a 4mm automaton!:- (Seen at Statfold Barn open day Sept 17th this year) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
60091 Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 Hi Stu, I like the idea of your layout but sadly RNAD Ernesettle wasn't like that! The 'underground' explosive stores are actually buried buildings with grass-covered soil heaped over them. The only true underground stores were at RNAD Dean Hill (now closed) where the individual stores were driven into the side of the hill (like an adit mine) with curved access roads for rail wagons. In my time it was all diesel locos, but an alternative would be stored steam where the loco has no firebox but is charged with steam from a boilerhouse. I'm fairly certain this arrangement was used in explosive factories. Simon. Had a look at the Ernesettle site on Google Earth and found myself thinking about the possibilities for a layout !...A couple of RfD 47s, VGAs, VEAs, an MOD shunter and a branch line with a DMU shuttle On the subject of motive power, have you thought about battery locos as used in coal mines. I must admit that I'm no expert on this subject, but found a few photos on various websites and remember examples (usually painted yellow or bright green) on display at museums etc. They are, mostly 2ft-3ft gauge, but could be modelled as standard.. The older examples tend to be 0-4-0 or 0-6-0s. More modern NCB examples were (I think) BoBos or BBs.? It also occured to me that some of the more modern designs might fit around one of the larger (Class 37/40/45), re-gauged, Farish chassis, as their overall appearance seems to be long and low. Also, not sure if 'Ive missed this....In what era are you setting the layout?..just so I have some idea what munitions you're planning to handle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 ........On the subject of motive power, have you thought about battery locos as used in coal mines. I must admit that I'm no expert on this subject, but found a few photos on various websites and remember examples (usually painted yellow or bright green) on display at museums etc. They are, mostly 2ft-3ft gauge, but could be modelled as standard...... Stu's lucky, he has a mining museum with working loco's just down the road from him, see http://www.tumblydownfarm.co.uk/museum.html And lots of early RTR Railway Models too, and Meccano. A pleasant little trip for the family. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted October 18, 2011 Share Posted October 18, 2011 You'd be surprised at how big the complex is and was even bigger not that long ago. One of my neighbours (ex RN Gunner!) has some interesting dits (stories) about the place and reckons some of the wagons were fitted with a type of copper wheel, to avoid sparks! I can remember returning boxes of ammo and heavy munitions there (and Bull Point) after the Falklands in late 82 and there were 'de-match' signs everywhere. The penalty for having matches etc inside was INSTANT dismissal, assuming you didn't go bang first! An interesting project Stu, dont forget the little fire yonks ago in a van at Tavy Junction, laid back approach to putting it out, nowt serious but the cargo was (I think) a Sea Wolf or two! Or was that an Ikara, dunno, to long ago to be sure! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 18, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 18, 2011 I haven't really considered era, other than I wanted to use my GWR Sentinal. I've also got an early crest BWT on order, a few green diesel and a few blue diesels. As the underground parts will be virtually time/era independent, and the services based ground level will be much the same, I reckon I can probably get away with any motive power and 10ft wheelbase wagons from early 1900s to late 1960s. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonB Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Just spotted your thread about doing a SWAG module too! I'm astounded at your level of industry! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
stadman Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 Hi Stu , how about a variation on one of these , A bit of building up for buffing and coupling gear , and nice and compact . It could have a deisel engine of suitable size hidden away and the exhaust would exit through a water box to avoid any sparks . I have seen deisel fork lifts used in expolosive factory high risk areas fitted this way , so it would make it prototypical for the enviroment . Cheers . Or even DIESEL . I don't think one of those inspection trolleys would be man enough to move wagons, or stop them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 19, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2011 Just spotted your thread about doing a SWAG module too! I'm astounded at your level of industry! I need to have multiple ideas going, else I get bored (hence building but not quite finishing properly 2 of the 4 Challenge entries...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted October 19, 2011 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted October 19, 2011 I don't think one of those inspection trolleys would be man enough to move wagons, or stop them. I'm not sure they wouldn't be strong enough - single 10ft wagons used to be moved by hand, and at low speeds the shunter could use the wagon brake to stop / slow it down. My problem would be to make something this small that's motorised - as I've mentioned elsewhere, if rolling stock ony had 3 wheels there's a good chance I could get all of them to touch the rails at the same time - 4 wheels and I'm struggling ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
R A Watson Posted October 19, 2011 Share Posted October 19, 2011 We were lifting the old (ex L S W R ) track for the Plym Valley Railway in the depot during 1982 and as BR said there was more there than you think, at this time all of the old underground system had been lifted and most of the narrow gauge stock had been bought by Nigel Bowman and moved to the Launceston Steam Railway. Some is still there, i believe, in an unmodified format and he may well be worth a visit for research purposes. At the time the working railway was being shunted by road-rail Unmog's. The most memorable thing about the site was the abundance of signs forbidding the picking of the native watercress, I expect it would give a taste explosion to your salad! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Londontram Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 The most memorable thing about the site was the abundance of signs forbidding the picking of the native watercress, I expect it would give a taste explosion to your salad! Might be OK for a Rocket salad though! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy water Posted May 15, 2017 Share Posted May 15, 2017 Did this layout ever get built? (or do we have to wait for the thirty years rule?) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Stubby47 Posted May 15, 2017 Author RMweb Gold Share Posted May 15, 2017 No, it didn't, but see here : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/122439-stubby47s-project-1-dm-four-mill-something/ ( Just don't tell anyone). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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