Starting with DCC

[Matloughe]

Good Morning,

 

I hope I have this in the right place, I am in the process of building a layout. Boards done, track down but not scenery or ballasting started. Currently its being operated in DC Mode with strategic use of isolating points to allow me to have a couple of locomotives at a time on the layout. Now, I have already decided I want to operate it with DCC instead, so I've marked out on the board where I need to place droppers for connection to a bus bar underneath etc.

 

So the question I have is how does one start in DCC, I have a Hornby Select I bought... a few years ago now 2006/7 I think in a Mixed Goods set, I used to work in a Toy Shop and I bought it strictly for work-related purposes of course.

 

Now I understand there are different manufacturers around that make chips and systems my Bachmann EPB having a 21pin socket whilst all my other models have 8pin sockets. I do want to have sound at some point so one of my questions is can I chip the locos operate them with my Select As crude as it is for the moment, then later purchase a more flashy control system and still have them work? Perhaps I'd need to re-address the locos when I get a new control system.

 

I currently have to model on a very tight budget so I simply cannot just go out and buy a 'bells & whistles' control system on a whim like the complete set Hattons is advertising at the moment, as much as I would love to it is a case of I buy the control system and not eat or heat my house for a couple of months... or I eat and I know which one I pick. So if my Select will do the job for the moment that's fantastic - if not It'll be DC Operation and no scenery for quite some time.

 

I know Hornby offer DCC Sound on a couple of locos I've been tempted to hint that I'd like one for Christmas - but does anyone have any experience of them? Again would they work on a Select?

 

I thank anyone & everyone who can help me in this conundrum in advance.

Cheers,

~ Gary

[Brian]

Hi

While the Hornby Select is a very basic DCC control system it can be used as a starter set and you can without any alterations to locos their decoders etc swap it for a better and more up market DCC system later on.

You will not have to alter anything in moving from a Select to a better system.

 

That said, I would urge you to ensure your DCC bus wires are of adequate wire size for any future improvements. The very minimum wire size I would consider is 32/0.2mm or 1.5mm2 solid wire and a larger conductor size if possible. This will ensure that if you obtain a high spec system you wont have to change anything - just unplug the old system and connect up the new one.

 

You can run Hornby, Bachmann or virtually any other make of DCC decoder with your Select DCC system. They are all designed to conform to one set standard and operate together happily.

 

As supplied the Select has a1.0Amp power supply provided. This can operate at the same time around 3 to 4 non sound locos without problems. You can increase the PSU to the 4.0Amp one and then have up to 10 non sound locos all running at once. Sound locos with their sounds turn on will consume more power (current) so reducing the number of locos able to run at any one time.

 

Edit to add... You might like to read through my DCC items http://www.brian-lambert.co.uk/DCC.htm There are of course other good DCC web site too.

[Mallard126]

Hi Gary,

I don't own any DCC Sound locos but I do know a bit about them. Your DCC Sound locos will work fine on the Select, However you will not be able to acsess all of the functions, I think all the functions above function 9 you will not be able to use. If you changed your controll system your DCC Locos will work fine on it, aslong as it is a DCC One!

 

Hope this helps,

 

Jacob

[Oldddudders]

Brian's advice is spot on. I put my toe in the water in 1997 with a Roco Digital Is Cool (!) starter set, found I could understand the DCC principles, and upgraded to Digitrax within a year. Following the wiring principles on Brian's website will ensure your layout can accept pretty well any new DCC system that comes along.

[Pete the Elaner]

I agree completely with the above replies.

 

I started with a Select & never had any problems with it not working. It is a starter system with limited features...but the features it does have do work even if they can be difficult to access.

 

Go with the route you have suggested. You'll not regret it.

[Nile_Griffith]

My only advice to add to all the other good stuff, would be that if you are buying decoders for your loco's try and buy the best you possibly can at the start, even though you are using your Hornby Select unit. Myself and others regularly comment in here that buying cheaper decoders can be a bit of a false economy. But just to confirm. if you get all your basic stuff right. layout wiring, good quality decoders in your loco's, etc. Then upgrading to any of the more complex control systems will be simply a matter of just connecting up the new power supply and controller.

 

As an aside. It may be worth keeping an eye on developments of PC control for your DCC layout. Although most people favour a hand held controller of some sort. It is possible to obtain relatively affordable software to run on your laptop or desk top machine, that in turn would provide a DCC controller with a greater range of control input, especially when it comes to Sound Loco's. Generally the various DCC Handsets, particularly those with fairly complex displays are a good wedge of the overall price of the system. But there is no reason not to operate a DCC system with just a PC talking to the DCC controller through a suitable interface. At present these interfaces are still relatively expensive, but I think we will soon see prices move to a more affordable level. But thats the great thing with DCC. There is the potential there to create a control system that best suits you.

 

Most of all, don't be in a hurry to reach a certain goal. Just have fun and let your imagination run riot with the potential of it all.

[drewn]

Gary,

 

I'm a novice at dcc and before I converted, I was worried about bus cables, size, etc,but I'v e been running without any bus cables at all, only having to replace two bits of dodgy track. Also, re. points., I have retained most of my insulated sidings as it's handy for storage purposes. I know dcc experts will frown on this but my layout works away fine with a Hornby Select unit and not a lot else spent on it!

 

Drew

[Matloughe]

Thank you all for your input - it is really appreciated.

 

I've got the Select out at the moment and am having a play around with it both the locos that came with the set when I bought it despite not even been run in yet are performing without issues. I do have a spare Hornby 8-pin decoder that I was contemplating fitting into another locomotive - however its been kicking around in the bottom of the spares box since it was removed from a Bachmann 56xx several years ago and I am wondering if it'll work still.

Perhaps I'll take my T9 apart and install it in the tender as a test.

 

I've bookmarked your website Brian as it looks like a very useful website to have a browse though when you are banging your head against the wall with problems. Can anyone recommend a sort of 'standard' chip to use for both 8 pin and 21pin, the 21pin so far is for my EPB and I've seen Broomsgrove Models recommend a TCS 621 decoder presumably this would be sufficient to cater for adding a sound package in the future?

Or would a standard Bachmann chip be sufficent - this is the area I need to grasp there is so much variety in decoders all slightly different tailored to different uses.

 

Thank you all again.

~ Gary

[Ravenser]

Thank you all for your input - it is really appreciated.

 

. Can anyone recommend a sort of 'standard' chip to use for both 8 pin and 21pin, the 21pin so far is for my EPB and I've seen Broomsgrove Models recommend a TCS 621 decoder presumably this would be sufficient to cater for adding a sound package in the future?

Or would a standard Bachmann chip be sufficent - this is the area I need to grasp there is so much variety in decoders all slightly different tailored to different uses.

 

Thank you all again.

~ Gary

 

 

I don't think a standard decoder regardless of pins is possible, because there are very few 21 pin decoders around. The TCS 621 is expensive , and therefore definitely not what I'd recommend as a fleet decoder on a tight budget. You need one for the EPB though , because you'll want to work an EPB in multiple, and the Bachmann standard decoder does not support consisting (multiple unit working) - unless you buy adaptors, which may run into space isses (mine did on a150) your other 21pin options are very few . Nor does the Hornby decoder support consisting. A sound package means buying a full sound decoder - so you'd be replacing the TCS621 anyway, though I can't see sound would be much of abenefit with an EMU because they are a lot quieter than most other forms of traction

 

I'd certainly give the spare Hornby decoder a try in something - at this point it costs nothing and you can always replace it later if you aren't satisfied. You'll then at least be making the decision based on practical experience. Another possible brand is the new Trainsaver decoder from Gaugemaster, which looks very like the (rather more expensive) TCS T1. These days nearly all decoders feature back EMF, and 4 digit addresses so the idea of only buying high end decoders is less relevant than it once was. The "extra features" seem less relevant to most people's needs - few people seem to think that the Lenz Gold offers much that they actually need over and above the cheaper Lenz Standard

 

The Bachmann 3 function decoder gives good motor control and if it isn't going into a multiple unit this is a perfectly good choice.

[Oldddudders]

You need one for the EPB though , because you'll want to work an EPB in multiple, and the Bachmann standard decoder does not support consisting (multiple unit working) - unless you buy adaptors, which may run into space isses (mine did on a150) your other 21pin options are very few . Nor does the Hornby decoder support consisting.

This is not the first time I've read on here that certain decoders do not support consisting. That is simply not true. What you mean is that they do not support Advanced or EPF Consisting, where the entire consist is given a unique number. I have never found it necessary to use that method, and simply MU second or third locos onto the lead loco, which is exactly what the prototype does. The lead loco/unit continues to operate as before, but other locos/units follow slavishly until you choose to break the consist down. Advanced Consisting, like Nested Consisting, probably has real value on large layouts where many trains are in operation, but it offers little that I can devine for the typical UK home layout.

 

Please tell me what I have missed.

[Ravenser]

Advanced consisting is a lot more convenient and effective when working multiple units in multiple - which is where I use consisting. The specific case here is a 2-EPB, where working in multiple with other EMUs is an obvious scenario

[Oldddudders]

Advanced consisting is a lot more convenient and effective when working multiple units in multiple - which is where I use consisting. The specific case here is a 2-EPB, where working in multiple with other EMUs is an obvious scenario

Why?

[Ravenser]

Possibly because my NCE PowerCab has 4 convenient buttons to set up and clear advanced consists, and it's quick and easy to do . The PowerCab also requires you to clear old style consists before you can run anything else

[Oldddudders]

My Digitrax system makes MU-ing dead easy, having two throttle knobs with continuous displays, even on those primeval throttles I bought last Century. In addition, I just downloaded this from the Digitrax website : "If you are using a Digitrax Command Station (DCS100 or DB150), we strongly recommend that you use UniVersal Consisting because it is much more straightforward."

 

My point is that suggesting there are decoders which may not be consisted is inaccurate. I am no great fan of cheap decoders, but let's at least be fair to their capabilities.

[Matloughe]

Good Evening Gentlemen,

 

Looks like an interesting discussion. I will not be using advanced consisting, I am quite happy selecting a locomotive then selecting another and getting them to double head for the moment. There won't be any need to 'store' a consist most likely my EPB will only be working in multiple with another EPB or a MLV if I buy one of those. I am guessing in this case the standard Bachmann chip will be fine as the only functions on an EPB is lights on or off.

Right so when sound is fitted a entirely new decoder is fitted - is this correct? That is partially what I wasn't understanding. And 'bog' standard decoders would be fine for my steam fleet - I just have to find one I like and use that - perfect.

 

Another novice question is i fitted the decoder to my T9 and programmed it however the T9 seems to 'stall' is the only word I can think of if any useful power is applied - its happy to crawl around in reverse no problem but stutters and stalls if I open up the throttle and refuses flat out to go forwards, now the engine works fine on DC power so is this a knackered decoder or am I doing something wrong?

 

Many Thanks,

~ Gary

[Ron Ron Ron]

.....there are very few 21 pin decoders around.

There are a few different examples;

e.g. (non-sound decoders) - Lenz Silver 21 Plus, ESU LokPilot V4.0 and V4.0 DCC, ESU LokPilot V1.0 Basic, various Zimo models, TCS EU621, Hornby R8245 Sapphire, Bachmann 36-554

 

I expect there will be few if any more produced, since the 21-pin connector is now effectively obsolete and being replaced by the PluX system.

 

 

......the Bachmann standard decoder does not support consisting (multiple unit working) ....

That might be rather academic as the OP is using a Select. Can that do consisting?

 

.

[Matloughe]

 

 

That might be rather academic as the OP is using a Select. Can that do consisting?

 

.

 

Yes it can.

Cheers,

~ Gary

[Ron Ron Ron]

Yes it can.

Thanks for that. I wasn't sure if it did.

 

.

[silverlink]

Gary,

I well remember dipping my foot in the dcc water back in 2008. I did a bit of reading up on it and a couple of really good bits of advice came out of what I read. Number one was to buy the most advanced system you can afford & the other was to do with what you had in your model collection. The advice here was based on how many bits of stock you owned that wasn't used very often. Why not sell things you very rarely run and rationalise your collection. The money raised from selling these items would help finance your DCC. I have found from talking to other modellers how many wished they hadn't bought the cheaper DCC control systems because they didn't do all the things they wanted them to do. I was lucky to have a demonstration by a fellow member at my locoal club of a Lenz 100 system which really impressed me, so much so I went out & purchased one. This system now runs my exhibition layout 'Haymarket Cross' with more than 100 loco's & five operators!!! Yes I have added boosters etc but all can be easilly fittted into place with the 100 system. You can do more or less most things with this control system even to adding parts from other manufacturers. You don't have to do it all at once just expand as & when you can afford it. With regards decoders, again, buy the best you can, I have found by trawling the net a dealer who is doing the Lenz Standard which is a brilliant decoder for £16 that's only a little more than a Bachmann or Hornby which really are not in the same league. Brilliant slow running & great ajustability through the whole range. Finally on the sound front which ever you purchase you will need a good control system to get the most out of all the sounds available from the decoder. Many now can have up to twenty different effects which the Lenz 100 can cope with easilly ( up to twenty eight functions ) & something many cheaper ones just can't do.

Cheers

silverlink

[Matloughe]

Good Evening Silverlink,

 

I was made redundant earlier in the year and the way I was made redundant has decreed that I was not going to get a penny of money from my former (now liquidated) employer; in order to be able to pay my way I have already had to sell approximately 60% of my collection to make ends meet the stuff I have kept, including my brand new 2-EPB there is no way I shall be parting with.

 

But that's all in the past I am not trying to look into the future. The Hornby Select I have had for some time now and I thought it was a case of "why not give it a whirl, see if it works." and it does which is fantastic. I've seen some fabulous DCC layouts at exhibitions and although mine is going to simply be a homebased BLT I have been working on several aspects from writing a Summer & Winter WTT its all interesting - but I've realised I have strayed from the path apologies.

 

I will upgrade the controller the current wiring layout when implemented will allow a case of plugging in a different control system I hope and doing away with the Select. I really need to join a club hopefully it would allow my locos to stretch their legs - plus I am a dab hand at wiring and soldering. An interesting fact is eventually I will have to wire ten Hornby Terrier Locomotives up for DCC operation - that will be certainly a challenge. Now if only my T9 would play ball - I am suspecting the decoder has had it as I have cleaned the wheels, track I can't think of any reason why it would stutter when under power or refuse to go forwards.

 

Cheers,

~ Gary

[Pete the Elaner]

Right so when sound is fitted a entirely new decoder is fitted - is this correct? That is partially what I wasn't understanding. And 'bog' standard decoders would be fine for my steam fleet - I just have to find one I like and use that - perfect.

 

 

Correct. A sound chip consists of the decoder & a speaker. If your loco already has a decoder, then you will have to remove it & probably install it into something else.

[250BOB]

Gary,

I have a pal who has been DCC for about 18mths now...like you, he dipped his toe in the water with the Hornby Select. In the earlier days, it did him proud...and his layout is just a depot, with headshunts and about a dozen sidings/shed roads, probably 6ft by 2ft.

He has however built up a collection of about 10 locos, but all are sound fitted, that is his priority. And he now finds great difficulty in successfully operating the layout for more than 5 minutes without the Select just locks up...it gets confused. So the plug has to come out, and the system completely reset.

He has been to play with my layout many times, and this Christmas he is treating himself to a Lenz LVZ100 system, exactly like mine.

I took the plunge from day one with the Lenz system......and like all Lenz users I suspect, never regretted it for one second.

Hope that helps with your forward thinking.....similar thoughts to that of Silverlinks good advice.

Bob.

[mudmagnet]

Hi Gary,

 

I've not used the Select myself, but like many others started with a Dynamis and now use an NCE Powercab - this is quite a step-up in my opinion. However, there is nothing wrong with the basic DCC systems - they do 'what they say on the tin'. Anyway, it is a simple change over to another system at a later date - just change the two bus wires - job-done.

 

As far as decoders are concerned - get what you can afford really. I use Bachmann in most of mine (both 8-pin and 21-pin) with no major issues. However, my only observation is that since changing over to the NCE, I found that these decoders do operate better and now try and use Lenz Standard (fitted to a Heljan 33 and runs very well) and a TCS M1 in my Bachmann 08 (due part to the limited space and part for very slow running, compared to the Bachmann previously fitted).

 

I suggest that you come over to the Barnstaple club one night - drop me a PM - bring along some stock and a run on Tawbridge (using NCE, but your stock will happily run). We can also have a chat about DCC.

 

Finally, don't forget, that most of us using DCC started knowing nothing and learn by asking questions and trying things ourselves. Don't get too bogged down with future options, just enjoy yourself. I would add that the comments about the wiring is probably the most important thing to remember and follow.

[250BOB]

Hi Gary,

 

I've not used the Select myself, but like many others started with a Dynamis and now use an NCE Powercab - this is quite a step-up in my opinion. However, there is nothing wrong with the basic DCC systems - they do 'what they say on the tin'. Anyway, it is a simple change over to another system at a later date - just change the two bus wires - job-done.

 

As far as decoders are concerned - get what you can afford really. I use Bachmann in most of mine (both 8-pin and 21-pin) with no major issues. However, my only observation is that since changing over to the NCE, I found that these decoders do operate better and now try and use Lenz Standard (fitted to a Heljan 33 and runs very well) and a TCS M1 in my Bachmann 08 (due part to the limited space and part for very slow running, compared to the Bachmann previously fitted).

 

I suggest that you come over to the Barnstaple club one night - drop me a PM - bring along some stock and a run on Tawbridge (using NCE, but your stock will happily run). We can also have a chat about DCC.

 

Finally, don't forget, that most of us using DCC started knowing nothing and learn by asking questions and trying things ourselves. Don't get too bogged down with future options, just enjoy yourself. I would add that the comments about the wiring is probably the most important thing to remember and follow.

 

Hi Gary, now theres an offer you really shouldnt refuse. Get yourself along at Mudmagnets invitation....you will learn so much.

I'm not a member of any club, but only have to ask the Derby MRC if I can visit now and again......they make me so welcome....and such a base of knowledge.

Bob

[silverlink]

Further to my comments in thread 20 the whole DCC thing can be as cheap or expensive as you want it to be and on top of that you have a massive difference in layout sizes. If you only have a small layout then one of the cheaper systems will do the job fine whereas a large layout with lots of tracks & stock will run best with a more advanced system. Wiring for DCC is not as I first thought a two wire system! but more like one hundred & two, just take a look at my control panel which is just one small part of my layout. I can give you more information on wiring should you wish but one other bit of advice I well remember was to wire as many of your sections through on/off switches as this will help you find faults shoud any occur.

silverlink