Lack of contemporary layouts on the exhibition circuit

[Revolution Mike]

I think there's a fairly easy answer to this question - there's not a high proportion of modern image layouts at shows as they aren't as popular as the steam ones. Remember there is a difference between the 'serious' modeller (most of us on RMWeb), and the general public who go to these shows. The majority will be families or casual modellers, who prefer to watch steam engines.

 

Our experience is the opposite on Stoney Lane Depot - kids and families are very interested in the contemporary scene as it the train "that Daddy goes to work on" or the Pendolino (misidentified Voyager!)/Voyager that are so recognisable to kids.

[Godders]

I was at the Newhaven Club's show on Saturday talking to the guys who now "OWN" Borchester Market. I love this layout, always have. However, one of the owners was telling me that if they change or repair anything or run more modern trains than the original stock, they get abuse from some members of the public. This is despite the fact that this layout is the best part of 50 years old and needs a lot of attention just to keep it running. There is an awful lot of nostalgia at exhibitions and looking at most of the attending public, including me, they were nearer 90 than 9. Even "modern" layouts tend to be at least 10 years old. Perhaps the writing is on the wall youngsters of today have got other things to do.

 

Cheers Godders

[arran]

HI All

 

So there no variety in the modern layouts.

 

So lets think whats on Law Junction.

 

66s yes there in abundance

67s 4 liveries

57s on the DRS

60s on the Dalston tanks or the Lackenby steel.

you can still runs 20s and 37s on the flasks.

 

Then theres the electrics.

92s on the EWS

91s on the GNER

90s on the Freightliner, Virgin or EWS

87s on the Virgin

86s on the freightliner

 

So if you chose the right location theres still an abundance to model.

 

So back to the question "why the perceived lack of MI"

 

This can be down to Exhibition managers not doing there best to get a balance.

 

Clubs also need to look to the future and build some descend MI layouts, this might be a harder nut to crack as the old guard in most clubs will be building what they want and Not what might get younger modellers interested.

 

Regards Arran

[beast66606]

 

Our experience is the opposite on Stoney Lane Depot - kids and families are very interested in the contemporary scene as it the train "that Daddy goes to work on" or the Pendolino (misidentified Voyager!)/Voyager that are so recognisable to kids.

 

Snap

[cromptonnut]

This can be down to Exhibition managers not doing there best to get a balance.

 

... or their personal preferences. If, as most smaller clubs, it's a "one man band" organising the show rather than a committee, then you probably tend to gravitate towards layouts you like at other shows and get their information with a view to having it at your own, rather than the really good modern image layout next to it that doesn't really interest you.

 

I know that the balance between scales, steam, modern and continental layouts of our club's show has changed every time a new exhibition manager has taken over.

[49395]

What sort of size of layout do you mean? the four you have listed are quite large (or at least I'd class them as quite large) and are most likely bigger than a lot of people have space for.

 

A lot of (smaller) layouts set recently do seem to be small TMD's and whilst they can be done well, most people aren't going to want to see more than one at a moderately sized show.

 

My own OO layout set approximately 1999-2004 is a shade under 12' by 2' (its not a TMD though, not that I have any reservations with them, it is a hobby for personal enjoyment after all.)

 

It has attended a couple of local exhibitions.

 

I suppose the lack of 'modern' layouts at shows could be a bit of a vicious circle, a lot of exhibition invites probably get arranged from exhibition managers seeing a layout at another show, if there aren't many good 'modern' layouts at shows then they won't get invited to others.

 

A certain amount may also depend on what an exhibition manager 'likes', hopefully they look at this from a non biased point of view and want a variety of layouts, different scales, era etc.

 

Then it seems a lot of shows don't like to invite layouts more than once, unless there's a gap of a few years between invites or the layout is built by the organisers and they exhibit it at each show.

 

Edit: much of this said above as I typed it myself

 

Mike

[Glorious NSE]

Hi Godders...

 

After reading this thread I tried to imagine building a contemporary layout based on my nearest station, Three Bridges. This line carries almost exclusively 3rd rail passenger trains from London to Brighton, London to Eastbourne via Lewes and Newhaven, London to Portsmouth and Southampton via the South coast route and Horsham. So a fairly busy Main line. However, as far as I know only the following trains pass through FCC Class 377, Southern Class 350 and Southern/Gatwick Express Class 422. Again as far as I know, none of these are presently available in 4mm although the 350 looks to be on its way.

 

I think this illustrates my point above about how people observe the modern railway...

 

Quick correction, there are no 350s at Three Bridges, but by my reckoning you should get the following 4 types on a *very* regular basis:

 

319s - First Capital Connect

377s - Southern (and they come in a variety of 'flavours', 3 or 4 cars, DC or dual voltage etc)

377s - First Capital Connect

442s - Southern (Gatwick Express livery)

And IIRC Southern also still leases a 460 as it's standby so that should turn up occasionally as well.

 

(Southern also has 455s and 456s, but I don't think they get that far out of London, and it has 313s, but I don't think they get that far North of the South Coast.)

 

Freightliner and EWS both run aggregates trains (from at least 3 originating points, involving at least 2 loco types and with at least 3 wagon types involved on a regular basis) to Crawley all of which pass through Three Bridges on the way there and back, so a variety of regular freight moves.

 

This time of year I would expect MPVs to be passing through there several times per day as well. From next month as needed de-icing moves as well.

 

Test trains these days are also a regular occurence with regular monitoring moves along all main lines these days.

 

Three Bridges has a lot of sidings, looking at Bing it *looks like* (and I haven't been there for many years so i'm happy to be corrected) Colas or NR have the ones on the down side, and Balfour Beatty has the ones between the Crawley and Brighton lines. In the various Bing overviews are several tampers, stoneblowers, rail grinders (both the S&C and plain line), a cable laying train, GP-TRAMMs and so on and so forth. Believe it or not some of those pictured *are* available RTR or as a kit!

 

So whilst I agree most of that is not stock that is easily available, I don't agree that there is little of interest to be modelled there.

 

And Arran's point above is also very valid - if you chose Redhill for instance you may lose the engineers sidings (although not neccesarily the moves made by the stock that stables there) but you would gain FGW 165/166 units and Tunnel-bound freight, plus with a year or two's leeway on time the Tonbridge services were run by SET instead of Southern as now...if you're picking a real location then picking one with the mix you want should be possible...

[jamie92208]

Having just found this thread ther are several contemporary layouts at Wakefield this coming weekend. Woodfield Road is a surprise in EM by Dave Woodward who normally sticks to 1920's LNER. Troutons, under construction in the demonstators area is set in present day West Yorkshire with much re sprayed and weathered stock.

 

Jamie

[Penrhos1920]

As Beast says, Exhibition Mangers don't invite contemporary layouts. So when we spot an exhibition manager walking our way we now swap the contemporary stock for blue diesels. That usually works. If it doesn’t, we dig out the steam engines….

 

Awrhyllgwami Quarry will be out in April in it new guise. We have more than trebled the scenic section length, although the scenery will not be completed. We will be operating both contemporary and blue eras.

 

The problem with modelling contemporary is that is it contemporary today, but history yesterday. So any layout soon ceases to be contemporary unless they continually add new stock.

[Godders]

Hi Godders...

 

 

 

I think this illustrates my point above about how people observe the modern railway...

 

Quick correction, there are no 350s at Three Bridges, but by my reckoning you should get the following 4 types on a *very* regular basis:

 

319s - First Capital Connect

377s - Southern (and they come in a variety of 'flavours', 3 or 4 cars, DC or dual voltage etc)

377s - First Capital Connect

442s - Southern (Gatwick Express livery)

And IIRC Southern also still leases a 460 as it's standby so that should turn up occasionally as well.

 

(Southern also has 455s and 456s, but I don't think they get that far out of London, and it has 313s, but I don't think they get that far North of the South Coast.)

 

Freightliner and EWS both run aggregates trains (from at least 3 originating points, involving at least 2 loco types and with at least 3 wagon types involved on a regular basis) to Crawley all of which pass through Three Bridges on the way there and back, so a variety of regular freight moves.

 

This time of year I would expect MPVs to be passing through there several times per day as well. From next month as needed de-icing moves as well.

 

Test trains these days are also a regular occurence with regular monitoring moves along all main lines these days.

 

Three Bridges has a lot of sidings, looking at Bing it *looks like* (and I haven't been there for many years so i'm happy to be corrected) Colas or NR have the ones on the down side, and Balfour Beatty has the ones between the Crawley and Brighton lines. In the various Bing overviews are several tampers, stoneblowers, rail grinders (both the S&C and plain line), a cable laying train, GP-TRAMMs and so on and so forth. Believe it or not some of those pictured *are* available RTR or as a kit!

 

So whilst I agree most of that is not stock that is easily available, I don't agree that there is little of interest to be modelled there.

 

And Arran's point above is also very valid - if you chose Redhill for instance you may lose the engineers sidings (although not neccesarily the moves made by the stock that stables there) but you would gain FGW 165/166 units and Tunnel-bound freight, plus with a year or two's leeway on time the Tonbridge services were run by SET instead of Southern as now...if you're picking a real location then picking one with the mix you want should be possible...

 

 

Hi Glorious NSE, can we get more personal and I'll just call you Glorious, if you don't mind.

 

You've caught me out! Let me correct you though to begin. I didn't say it wasn't interesting. I was trying to demonstrate the lack of rtr contemporary stock for what is a mainline situation. The majority of us want to be able to build model railways in a reasonable amount of time and reasonable cost. Most exhibition layouts utilize excellent rtr as the basis of their exhibit. I've waited years to get rtr 00 models that look like and run like the real thing and though i accept that they are not perfect they're pretty good compared with the stuff that I started with, Trix-Twin and early Rovex. To model even part of Three Bridges would require a lot of real estate, I could I suppose build it in my back garden but that would make it difficult to bring to exhibitions. Yes if I was to consider modelling the area I could move to Redhill or Horsham and there would be something slightly different but surely that's the point, I would have to move to find something to fit available stock to, rather than select a place and acquire the stock. However, this is all academic, my current project is to build a model based on my roots in West Yorkshire in the late 50s early 60s when I was a lad!

 

Cheers Godders

 

BTW I thought all the aggregate trains had been re-routed to get into Ardingly from the South via Haywards Heath unless you mean the Crawley yard ones, which I thought had been discontinued.

[Baby Deltic]

What is a contemporary layout?

[Glorious NSE]

Hi Glorious NSE, can we get more personal and I'll just call you Glorious, if you don't mind.

 

Call me Martyn if you like.

 

I was trying to demonstrate the lack of rtr contemporary stock for what is a mainline situation.

 

Okay, I have to admit that's a good prototype to make that argument with, but until (for instance) the last couple of years it would have also applied to any era for that location, it's only in the last couple of years we've got the VEP for instance which could form a backbone to an 80s fleet.

 

If you were to pick a current mainline location on a main line outside the south east (such as your chosen West Yorks but updated to the current day) you'd get a lot closer to stocking it largely with RTR (although there's still some significan holes even there!)

 

You could have a reasonable representation of an ECML electric rake, ECML or MML HST rake, Voyager, plus classes 142, 144, 150, 153, 155, 156, 158, 170 RTR - not all are top notch or might be in the right livery/condition straight from the box, but all exist in model form. 321s/322s are also available RTR albeit at a price that reflects it's a made to order kit - you're missing 185s (probably the most significant hole) and 180s, plus 333s if you're modelling the electrified bit West of Leeds. All current freight diesel types are available RTR, as are many of the signature wagons. Not a bad place to be in, and I suspect no worse off than a steam era modeller (and potentially better?)

 

To model even part of Three Bridges would require a lot of real estate,

 

Not sure I agree with your point here, to model any major junction station would require a lot of real estate, irrespective of era or prototype?

 

BTW I thought all the aggregate trains had been re-routed to get into Ardingly from the South via Haywards Heath unless you mean the Crawley yard ones, which I thought had been discontinued.

 

Forgot about Ardingly, that's another regular freight working...

 

The Clapham table on FMi lists the following running currently which pass through Three Bridges:

 

6Y60 Ardingly-Hither Green (DBS/Mendip)

6V87 Crawley-Bristol Barrow Rd (Freightliner)

7Y36 Cliffe-Crawley (DBS)

6V50 Crawley-Acton (DBS/Mendip)

 

(All of which must have an opposing move outside the FMi timetable range)

[rob D2]

Well......

I wouldn't say the 'modern scene' is boring, just different. Small variety in loco, large variety in colours. 35 years back it was reversed.

What I think is true, is that, modelling the current scene is.............difficult (in a small space).The majority of interest for me is with freight in the contemporary period (reversed in BR blue days) and 90 % of that freight is looooooong.

 

Take a 6' plank and it's very hard to model the current freight scene, because of the longer train lengths, longer wagons and lack of shunting. I may try the half yard approach. The thought process goes something like .....I'd like a private owner siding (not that many of those left), but it would be probably only served once a week, so I'll throw in some stabling sidings for locos, to display them- but where can i put my DMUs ? er ok I'll have a single track branch terminus as well.

 

So there we go - a loco stabling /point /TMD/freight siding/station ---arrrggghh, to get all the interest in it looks implausible and is. I can see why most would defer to the MPD ! Hence for my next plank it will be plain vanilla non specific sidings set in 1991 -2000. No MPD/No station.

 

I loved the modelling of Matford in RM, but the concept I thought was a bit questionable in terms of plausability.

[Glorious NSE]

Another for the list, there was a nice model of Cromer in O scale I saw in a mag recently...

[br2975]

I have to agree with the OP that there is an apparent dearth of 'contemporary' layouts on the exhibition circuit.

.

From my soapbox I can see fewer youngsters coming through the doors at exhibitions.

.

Perhaps, in years to come that will result in fewer model railway items on sale; in fact we're reaching a saturation point at the moment, not that I'm complaining.

.

But little Johnny, the potential convert, may see a Cl.150/2 in FGW colours, or a Cl.350 and say "that's the train we take to go shopping" and will associate with it.

 

He cannot associate with, and neither can I (in my mid-50s) pre-grouping Lancashire & Yorkshire or early grouping LMS in Gloucestershire.

 

All power to those that do model such things, but we need to boost our numbers and attract some new, younger blood (CRB checks permitting !).

 

Stretching the arguement a bit, I've also noticed that the contemporary layouts I have observed tend to be set in the 'real world' where the setting is modelled warts 'n' all, including graffiti, weathered stock, decrepit buildings.

 

Whereas some (but not all) of the more 'true to scale' offerngs (e.g. P4) that I've seen of late have been superior in engineering and presentation, but are bland, bordering on clinical, with everything spotlessly clean - which wasn't the case in say the South Wales and/or parts of London/Birmingham/Manchester etc. up to and including the 1960s

 

Exit stage left, pursued by a bear - no, by a P4 modeller

[Invicta]

 

The problem with modelling contemporary is that is it contemporary today, but history yesterday. So any layout soon ceases to be contemporary unless they continually add new stock.

 

From very vague memory, some years back (late 80's/early 90's perhaps?) I think I once read an article in one of the mags by someone associated with what may have been a fairly well-known 'modern-image' (if you'll excuse the phrase) layout in which the author discussed a change in focus in his modelling- he'd previously modelled the contemporary scene of that period and attempted to keep it contemporary and up-to-date, but had changed to modelling a fixed point in time set a few years previously because he'd got fed up with renumbering locos as the prototypes were withdrawn, or replacing them altogether as older classes like 25s, 40s etc disappeared from the network....

[Catkins]

I've noticed that the magazines seem to be filled with steam or early blue based layouts, so any one grazing on the fringes would not get any inspiration to model a 21st century prototype.

As for the 21st century railway being boring -

Grantham has EMT 158's running between Norwich and Liverpool, East Coast Mk4's in GNER blue, EC silver and the Loco + DVT in Flying Scotsman branding, East Coast HST's in EC livery, and one set that has EC branding on EMT trailers, a NXEC liveried Buffet, and at least one MML blue liveried power car. We have Grand Central and First Hull trains running class 180's, and until a couple of years ago the FHT ones were in the original livery, and GC were running 125's.

Freight is powered by GBRF/Europorte on containers, EWS on containers and Colwich-Lindsey tanks (that run round in the loops) Freightliner on containers, a 92 passes through on a steel train from europe to Scunthorpe.

There are also the outside normal workings of london based units, and NatEx anglia DVTs travelling to Doncaster for refurbishment, steam and diesel specials and midweek stock moves. And it is not unknown for engineering work to have an effect, the most recent has produced a ballast rake TnT'd by two freightliner 66s, and in the past services have been terminated at Grantham during a blockade.

 

All in all a very boring scene!

[Catkins]

BTW - I can remember ModelRail being a four page insert in Rail Enthusiast in the very early years, and the strapline then was (something similar to)

"A modern image magazine for modern image modellers!"

 

Where is that magazine now?

[49395]

Would it be worth having a thread, maybe even a sticky somewhere that you could post details of contemporary layouts to, then there's a centralised place for exhibition managers to look.

 

I suppose seperate threads by era could be done, i.e. pre grouping, grouping, br pre 1968, br post 1968 to pre privatisation and post privatisation.

 

It might need a fair bit of moderating though, such as submit the details and then they get checked over before appearing, to prevent the thread(s?) descending into mayhem.

 

Or just a thread with links to layout topics with details in, I'm fairly sure something like that was done before, maybe even on this version of rmweb.

 

Just a thought to try and let people know whats out there...

 

Mike

[Glorious NSE]

From very vague memory, some years back (late 80's/early 90's perhaps?) I think I once read an article in one of the mags by someone associated with what may have been a fairly well-known 'modern-image' (if you'll excuse the phrase) layout in which the author discussed a change in focus in his modelling- he'd previously modelled the contemporary scene of that period and attempted to keep it contemporary and up-to-date, but had changed to modelling a fixed point in time set a few years previously because he'd got fed up with renumbering locos as the prototypes were withdrawn, or replacing them altogether as older classes like 25s, 40s etc disappeared from the network....

 

It is a challenge for sure, and it's noticeable that many of the influential/inspirational transition sectorisation era layouts were actually contemporary when they started but didn't move on...i'm thinking the likes of Tonbridge West Yard, Acton Main line etc...

 

(Edit due to slip of the brain)

[bmthtrains - David]

 

Of course you'd be too modest to say it but I will - your layouts have captured the contemporary feel of the environment as well as any I have ever seen.

 

Far too high a praise Andy, but it does raise a point - contemporary layouts really do have to stand out for the public to be wowed by them. The 2 shows I took Ring Road along to, it drew crowds as Red Death says, because the kids recognised the trains, but the adults had fun spotting the 'real' details. (I think it was the most popular layout with mums/wives as they loved spotting Ikea and Sainsburys!). Kids love trains whizzing by, and a lot of 'modern' OO layouts are restricted by size to be sheds/depots etc. Another reason why N is just so good for modern image, and when you think about good modern image exhibition layouts, in N there's Stoney Lane, Hedges Hill, Acton Mainline (under a new name), Kinlet Wharf (my favourite all time layout), Drem and Law Junction...

 

Exhibitions to have to appeal to a wider audience than us 'core' modellers, and the managers will choose the mix of layouts they think their visitors will enjoy, but they have to do so from what is available. You can't have Drem at your show every year, so if people want to see more modern layouts at shows...build more of them!

 

(And lets not even get into the discussion of what constitutes modern image!)

 

David

[Invicta]

I have to agree with the OP that there is an apparent dearth of 'contemporary' layouts on the exhibition circuit.

.

From my soapbox I can see fewer youngsters coming through the doors at exhibitions.

.

Perhaps, in years to come that will result in fewer model railway items on sale; in fact we're reaching a saturation point at the moment, not that I'm complaining.

.

But little Johnny, the potential convert, may see a Cl.150/2 in FGW colours, or a Cl.350 and say "that's the train we take to go shopping" and will associate with it.

 

He cannot associate with, and neither can I (in my mid-50s) pre-grouping Lancashire & Yorkshire or early grouping LMS in Gloucestershire.

 

All power to those that do model such things, but we need to boost our numbers and attract some new, younger blood (CRB checks permitting !).

 

 

Weirdly enough, the handful of younger (ie under the age of 25) modellers I've known personally in the last 10 years or so have been almost exclusively steam-era modellers, with interests like Pre-nationalisiation GWR, 50's BR and narrow-gauge...

 

I'm certainly not arguing with your point, because I'm very aware that three or four people I've known over 10 years is a very unscientific sample, but I wonder if people's influences in the hobby are sometimes not as cut and dried as 'modelling what we see or remember'?

 

I know mine aren't- I'm in my early 40's and never saw BR steam, but have been almost exclusively a steam-era, (either pre-nationalisation LMS or 50's to transition-era BR) modeller since I was a kid.

 

Why? Because I never really had that 'the train we take to go shopping' experience- I grew up in a town that lost all passenger services a couple of years before I was born, and so travelled behind preserved steam on the two local 'heritage' lines (GCR and Battlefield) almost as often as I did on the 'real' railway- my only regular exposure to that was the coal trains that rumbled across the level crossing in the middle of town- I had to travel a good 10-15 miles to even see a passenger train, and until I went to university, and began to travel by train regularly, I could almost count the number of times I'd travelled on the main line on my fingers

 

Having said that, I can find as much interest in a bang-up-to-date contemporary layout, a good Sectorisation-period TMD, a pre-grouping branch terminus in P4, or a really well-modelled NG layout (My list of favourite layouts on the exhibition circuit is eclectic, to say the least!), and that 'modelling what I remember' factor does kick in occasionally though, with thoughts of modelling the freight services I regularly saw as a kid- pairs of 20s on HAAs etc...

Equally though, if I ever feel my kitbuilding and painting (and particularly lining!) skills are up to it, then I'd be very tempted by an excursion into something pre-grouping and Midland...

 

If 'Little Johnny's' early railway experiences revolved more around preserved steam than the main line, like mine did, perhaps he'll be more likely to be interested in A4s than 66s.

[Glorious NSE]

Well......

I wouldn't say the 'modern scene' is boring, just different. Small variety in loco, large variety in colours. 35 years back it was reversed.

 

I agree with what you say Rob, but i'm going to go off on a minor tangent here:

 

It does still depend on your prototype lots - one Sectorisation meme I personally love is the late 80s Cornish china clay layout, but for the period i'd want to model (covering 1987-1989, the end of the hoods and start of the CDAs) then the loco variety is pretty small, just 3x mainline classes (37, 47, 50) cover all the everyday stuff, DMUs were mostly one type, with a second (155s) being introduced on the main line. 142s might *just* scrape in at the start...plus HSTs, and 08s if you have a yard. Pushing the boat out a bit there may have been an occasional visit by another class like the 20s on the annual weedkiller tour...

 

Another Sectorisation favourite is the WHL, 37/4, 37/4, 37/4, 156...okay lots of liveries but one of the common complaints with todays railway is lots of identical (ish) machines in different liveries not being 'real' variety!?

 

Cornwall today gets 57s and 66s regularly, which is a drop in loco variety from the 80s, still 08s, main line trains have HSTs and voyagers, units are usually 150 or 153 these days. There's an occasional visit by other types on railtours or engineering work, but mostly a lot less...

 

Still within the OPs 'post 2000' definition of 'contemporary' though if you look at circa 2001 you have 37s, 47s, 57s, 60s, 66s, 67s, HSTs, Voyagers, 150, 153, 158 units, which is more variety than the sectorisation or 'right now'...

 

If *variety* is what you want, then picking your period and prototype carefully can help!

[coachmann]

"Modern" layouts are too restrictive for my tastes and are simply denied the many operating possibilities that existed pre-Beeching.

[beast66606]

"Modern" layouts are too restrictive for my tastes and are simply denied the many operating possibilities that existed pre-Beeching.

 

Most of them ;>), we run terminating services, we have the scrap that departs Widnes for, well Widnes (!), a DCE train which will circumnavigate the layout (and shunt back into the sidings), a tamper which does the same, through services, stopping services, all regulated by correct signals BUT the main force on our layout, the force which controls all of this is ... the M.I.L.F dum dum duuuum.