Whacky Signs.

[J. S. Bach]

There appears to be a yellowish line immediately to the right of the drainage gratings.

[Hroth]

3 hours ago, kevinlms said:

But perhaps you've missed the 2nd part of the joke - there is no yellow line!

 

2 hours ago, The Johnster said:

 

It does now...

 

 

There might be, 100 yards away, and I still want to be a long way behind it if a train that isn't going to stop shows up!  There'll be a brown line afterwards otherwise.

 

To be really safe, you probably need to be behind the double yellows...

 

[BoD]

6 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

There appears to be a yellowish line immediately to the right of the drainage gratings.

… and for those of you watching in black and white, it’s the one next to the blue.

[kevinlms]

1 hour ago, BoD said:

… and for those of you watching in black and white, it’s the one next to the blue.

But the screen refers to a yellow line on the platform!

[melmerby]

16 hours ago, Hroth said:

 

 

Just passin' through......

 

Interesting that the front of the loco's pretty well intact.

The buffers dont seem to have done much stopping of the train before being punted out of the way

[The Johnster]

They don't, unless they are hydraulic of friction devices.  Normal buffers are bolted to short sections of track but the section is not fishplated to the adjoining rail sections, so in a heavy shunt the buffers, with their track section, are pushed back by the train; this is intentional and to avoid damage and injury.  In this case the loco has pushed the buffers out of the way with their attached rails as intended and taken a concrete block of the shed floor with it as well.  Assuming that the curved wall means that the loco has come off a turntable onto a roundhouse shed road, it couldn't have been going particularly fast either!  A building screen wall is no match for a locomotive, which will go through it like paper; it's main purpose is to keep the rain off.

 

Matters are usually different at termini, where the buffers are backed by solid platforms, and if hydraulic or friction buffers are not provided the approach is usually under caution by calling-on signals after the train has been brought to a stand at the home.  This is one of the reasons that trains are often brought to a stand at signals on the approach to termini, as semaphore calling-on signals should not be cleared until the train is at a stand. Many termini are at the bottom of gradients, which complicates matters a little, though most also employ the trick of a slight gradient uphill towards the buffers, an aid both to braking and to getting trains under way before the climb out. 

 

I always regarded the red light on running line buffers as an unequivocal stop signal, and became involved in an argument when the Swansea MAS scheme came into effect ('73, 74?).  The semaphores were replaced with 2-aspect colour light signals, alternatively red/green yellow/green, and the final signal on the approach to Swansea High Street showed a green aspect into the station.  To my mind, this was a green, clear, proceed, signal followed by a red stop signal, the light on the buffers, and capital W Wrong.  It is of course very unlikely that any driver, even with wobbly route knowledge, would pass this signal as if it were really indicating a clear road for two signal sections*, the inference with 2-aspect signals, and no problem has ever arisen from the green aspect at this signal, but I thought the signal should display a yellow aspect as a matter of principle.  It was of course a fully controlled signal with calling-on and theatre route indication.

 

 

*Any that did can be assumed to be acting under insane suicidal or murderous intent, and would not be stopped by any signalling.  We are postulating someone coming down the bank from Landore under power at high speed with the express intention of destroying the train and the station.

[Grovenor]

12 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

They don't, unless they are hydraulic of friction devices.  Normal buffers are bolted to short sections of track but the section is not fishplated to the adjoining rail sections, so in a heavy shunt the buffers, with their track section, are pushed back by the train; this is intentional and to avoid damage and injury.

 

This would only apply if there was open ground behind the buffer, and even then my experience was that the rails were normally fishplated to the approach track. Maybe things were different in South Wales! On occasions where we had to have a track circuit on the approach and hence replaced the fishplates with Permalis to avoid the buffers causing a short it was common to find the Permalis broken after the buffer was nudged.

[Grovenor]

11 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

There appears to be a yellowish line immediately to the right of the drainage gratings.

Glad I'm not the only one who can see a yellow line, but what you see as a drainage grating I see as textured paving mandatory in that position for the benefit of those who see with their feet.

[martin_wynne]

23 minutes ago, The Johnster said:

Normal buffers are bolted to short sections of track but the section is not fishplated to the adjoining rail sections, so in a heavy shunt the buffers, with their track section, are pushed back by the train; this is intentional and to avoid damage and injury.

 

I imagine this one was well bolted down, because if it moves there would be a nice shower of sparks as it hits the 3rd rail electrification:

 

© Jim Peden, used with permission

 

It's a candidate for the "prototype for everything" topic - two spurs sharing a single buffer stop. The rails at the stop block run side by side, it is not a set of points.

 

Roe Lane Junction, Southport, on the L&Y electrified lines. The impressive building is the maintenance workshop for the electric stock.

 

Martin.

[KeithMacdonald]

1 hour ago, martin_wynne said:

It's a candidate for the "prototype for everything" topic - two spurs sharing a single buffer stop. The rails at the stop block run side by side, it is not a set of points.

 

Yes please.

[martin_wynne]

.

I have deleted this post because obviously folks didn't recognise the funny quirkyness of the text correction. I provided an explanatory link. There was no need for the supportive reactions, it wasn't sent to me. But thanks anyway.

 

Martin.

Edited December 29, 2022 by martin_wynne

[J. S. Bach]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

I imagine this one was well bolted down, because if it moves there would be a nice shower of sparks as it hits the 3rd rail electrification:

 

© Jim Peden, used with permission

 

It's a candidate for the "prototype for everything" topic - two spurs sharing a single buffer stop. The rails at the stop block run side by side, it is not a set of points.

 

Roe Lane Junction, Southport, on the L&Y electrified lines. The impressive building is the maintenance workshop for the electric stock.

 

Martin.

I think that it is, I enlarged the photo and even with the poor resolution it definitely to my eyes looks like points.

 

I wonder what was the track plan before the electrification? What it here in the photo is way too short to serve any useful purpose.

[JZ]

14 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

I think that it is, I enlarged the photo and even with the poor resolution it definitely to my eyes looks like points.

 

I wonder what was the track plan before the electrification? What it here in the photo is way too short to serve any useful purpose.

I agree with Martin that it is two rails side by side, as there is no apparent mechanism for moving the blades.

What purpose it served is unclear, as the left side would only fit a small tank loco and the right, maybe a small tender loco.

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by JZ

[martin_wynne]

44 minutes ago, J. S. Bach said:

I think that it is, I enlarged the photo and even with the poor resolution it definitely to my eyes looks like points.

 

I wonder what was the track plan before the electrification? What it here in the photo is way too short to serve any useful purpose.

 

Here are the pre- and post-electrification maps (rotated to match the photo):

 

 

 

 

It is not a set of points. The rails run side-by-side to the buffer stop.

 

The left-hand side is an over-run trap spur for the yard sidings. Ideally never needed and rusty in the photo.

 

The right-hand side is a head-shunt for the carriage works. It is electrified and in use as you can see from the 3rd rail and shiny rails.

 

Map here: https://maps.nls.uk/view/126518903#zoom=6&lat=7607&lon=9487&layers=BT

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Edited December 29, 2022 by martin_wynne
map link added

[melmerby]

3 hours ago, The Johnster said:

They don't, unless they are hydraulic or friction devices.

Which they look like they could be.

If that is a roundhouse, why such a substantial buffer? Most radial roads only have wheelstops, unless someone had thought about the drop outside the wall.

 

This one made a better job of it:

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

 

I imagine this one was well bolted down, because if it moves there would be a nice shower of sparks as it hits the 3rd rail electrification:

 

© Jim Peden, used with permission

 

It's a candidate for the "prototype for everything" topic - two spurs sharing a single buffer stop. The rails at the stop block run side by side, it is not a set of points.

 

Roe Lane Junction, Southport, on the L&Y electrified lines. The impressive building is the maintenance workshop for the electric stock.

 

Martin.

I wouldn't call that a spur, I'd call it a trap.  It's not unreasonable for two traps to overlap as you'd be extremely unlucky to have locos running by the exit signals on both roads simultaneously

[Michael Hodgson]

2 hours ago, J. S. Bach said:

I think that it is, I enlarged the photo and even with the poor resolution it definitely to my eyes looks like points.

No, I don't see a lever or point motor to work it, nor any point rodding leading to it.

And even if you could throw it, there isn't room for so much as an 0-2-0 to stand clear of the toe of this point, so there's no point to it being a point as it were.

 

[martin_wynne]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

I wouldn't call that a spur, I'd call it a trap.  It's not unreasonable for two traps to overlap as you'd be extremely unlucky to have locos running by the exit signals on both roads simultaneously

 

I called it a trap spur. A spur can be a trap. Traps do not only protect from locos over-running signals, they also protect from wagon braking failures and unbraked wagons running free in sidings.

 

The right-hand road is not a trap, it is electrified and in regular use (shiny rails). It is a head-shunt for the carriage works. It was entered under the control of a driver, who would easily see that the other spur was occupied, if it ever was.

 

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't posted it.

 

Martin.

Edited December 29, 2022 by martin_wynne

[Michael Hodgson]

10 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't posted it.

 

I'm glad you did - it's an interesting and unusual bit of p/way.

[iands]

10 minutes ago, martin_wynne said:

 

I called it a trap spur. A spur can be a trap. The right-hand road is not a trap, it is electrified and in regular use (shiny rails). It is a head-shunt for the carriage works.

 

I'm beginning to wish I hadn't posted it.

 

Martin.

The photo has been posted, and discussed, on RMWeb previously. IIRC the general consensus was has been suggested, not points but two separate lines to the buffers, a trap  and a shunt-neck. 

[martin_wynne]

6 minutes ago, iands said:

The photo has been posted, and discussed, on RMWeb previously. IIRC the general consensus was has been suggested, not points but two separate lines to the buffers, a trap  and a shunt-neck. 

 

Yes, by me. Although I had forgotten it: https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/78411-prototype-for-everything-corner/?do=findComment&comment=3681820

 

Thanks for the reminder. The actual reason for posting it again was not for the unusual track layout, but in the discussion about buffer stops being free to move.

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

[martin_wynne]

Here is another pic: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/meols_cop_triangle/index7.shtml

 

Looking back at the previous topic I see that I was arguing that it might be an old switch:

 

 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/78411-prototype-for-everything-corner/?do=findComment&comment=3683612

 

But the above pic convinced me it was separate rails. 🙂

 

Martin.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

The right-hand side is a head-shunt for the carriage works. It is electrified and in use as you can see from the 3rd rail and shiny rails.

 

 

cheers,

 

Martin.

Given the apparent regular use (shiny rails), I would assume that the length of rail was just enough to allow a train of a regular length to shunt within the depot. Well thought out by the designer, as any shorter and train couldn't be shunted without redesigning the whole junction.

[J. S. Bach]

5 hours ago, melmerby said:

Which they look like they could be.

If that is a roundhouse, why such a substantial buffer? Most radial roads only have wheelstops, unless someone had thought about the drop outside the wall.

 

This one made a better job of it:

That reminds me of a photo taken in Los Angeles of an F or E unit that had punched its way through a wall; although not far enough to drop on the street below.

[martin_wynne]

2 hours ago, martin_wynne said:

Here is another pic: http://www.disused-stations.org.uk/features/meols_cop_triangle/index7.shtml

 

Looking back at the previous topic I see that I was arguing that it might be an old switch:

 

 https://www.rmweb.co.uk/topic/78411-prototype-for-everything-corner/?do=findComment&comment=3683612

 

But the above pic convinced me it was separate rails. 🙂

 

Martin.

 

The scan I posted earlier was made 20 years ago, specifically for a web page:

 

 https://85a.uk/templot/martweb/info_files/gimp_track.htm

 

(Also 20 years old, and after all this time that page has had the most hits on the Templot web site.)

 

I have now scanned the photo again on a better scanner at higher resolution:

 

 

The original hi-res scan can be seen on this link:

 

 https://85a.uk/images/roe_lane_jct_5172x2718.jpg  (9MB)

 

Here I have cropped out the buffer stop:

 

 

From which it can be seen that the stop block is attached to the trap spur, and the works head-shunt is laid on separate rails alongside the spur. The chairing looks to have been improvised in part by supporting the inner rails on P slide chairs bolted to the outer rails. This can be seen on the inside of the far spur rail.

 

We seem to have wandered just a little off-topic from whacky signs.  🙂

 

Martin.