57 varieties?

[great northern]

I thought the subject of what would make viable RR models had been done to death, but then it occurred to me that perhaps there is another angle we could look at. We have tried various ways of discussing locos which we might persuade Hornby/Bachmann to produce( while avoiding wish lists of course), but here is a bit of a new challenge.

There is general agreement that the more variants that can be obtained from the basic tooling, the more economically viable a model becomes.So, here are a couple of examples which I reckon would be hard to beat. In both cases we are looking at just one chassis. My challenge is for you to illustrate other classes which could claim the same sort of variety.

 

LNER D11 4.4.0.

 

This can be produced in the following guises:-

 

1. Original GC green. For collectors and the "wow must have one" factor- see City of Truro thread)

2. LNER black

3. LNER green

4. D11/2 with cut down boiler fittings for Scottish modellers.

5. Post war D11/2 in LNER green with " British Railways" on tender. Quite a number of Scottish engines carried this livery, one until about 1953!

6. BR lined black

7. BR unlined black

8. As preserved?

9. With slight changes to tooling, original D10 Director.

 

Summary.

 

Covers all periods from 1913,if you include D10, to 1960. Range of activity from London to Scotland via the Cheshire lines, ( Liverpool Manchester Chester for example) plus Lincoln- Derby Midland in the '50's. And names like " Luckie Mucklebackit" and "Wizard of the Moor". And of course a GC "standard" tender, which could be used on other locos.

 

LNER D16 4.4.0

 

1.as built in GE royal blue. Definitely one for collectors.

2.in matt grey. Collectors again.

3.Belpaire firebox

4.Roundtop firebox

5.With decorative valances

6 Valances removed.

7 LNER black

8.LNER green

9. The "Royal Clauds" in lined geen and always immaculate right up to 1939, again collectors, and perhaps irresistible to many other people.

10. The same two locos between 1948 and 1951 in LNER green with "British Railways" on tender.

11. With standard GE tender.

12. With oil burning tender.

13. BR lined black.

14. BR unlined black.

 

Summary.

 

If you perm all these possibilities, you almost lose count of the number of different models possible, all on the same chassis, and most with a tender which can be used for other locos, B12 and B17 to name but two.None preserved unfortunately, but that isn't too much of a drawback these days. Mainly GE engines, but they got as far as York in LNER days, and later strayed as far as the Cheshire lines. Used on locals from Peterborough to Leicester Midland Rugby Midland and Northampton in later years, and for a while on Lincoln- Derby Midland trains. In use from 1900 right through to 1960. And have they got the "wow" factor"? IMO not many classes had more.

 

Ok, that's two from the LNER, which is what I know at least a bit about. Can you match or beat these? It's a good exercise, not just a bit of fun, as we can make business cases out of the results. One final thought - doesn't this show the huge potential for long lived pre grouping classes?

 

Gilbert

[34theletterbetweenB&D]

Covering four different railway companies, and seeing some use on BR, the Great Northern Ivatt large atlantic, LNER C1, and the 2 classes of LBSCR Marsh atlantics derived from the GN design would seem to offer this sort of potential, if the tooling were designed to allow the variations to the basic design. There is a preserved C1 at the NRM, and a team working on building a LBSCR atlantic. No RTR atlantic has ever been offered in OO as a mass production item.

 

Livery potential (needs someone to fill in more on the LBSCR types)

 

C1

Great Northern Railway full livery

GNR wartime grey?

LNER green number on tender

LNER green number on cab

NE wartime black

BR black?

Restored GNR livery for preservation

 

LBSCR

LBSCR livery

SR livery

SR wartime black?

SR post war

BR black

 

Potential 'new build' model.

 

 

All these classes were noted for haulage of Pullman trains, another useful tie in for one manufacturer in particular.

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Just to put some 'Modern Image' things on here:

 

Electrostars:

 

Class 377 / 375 / 376 / 357 can be made with only cab modified

Southern livery

Southeastern Livery

First Capital Connect Livery

C2C Green livery

C2C Purple livery

C2C / National Express Livery

Dual voltage units

3 / 4 / 5 car units

 

That's it really!

 

Simon

[Steadfast]

Well 9 liveries on essentially one wagon isn't bad going:

http://spreadsheets....vYg&output=html

The most recent design of TEA tank sees 9 liveries, with only minor detail variations needed, if any at all, depending on which livery.

They appear in Petrochem Carless, Caib blue and grey, Petroplus red, VTG red grey and blue, EWS and Freightliner. Bachmann already do the TF25 bogies...

 

Class 59s have carried 10 liveries:

Yeoman

ARC

National Power

Revised Yeoman

Revised ARC

Hanson

EWS

Mendip Rail

Aggregate Industries

DB Schenker

Ok so you need three body mouldings, and two sets of underframes, but much of the work is standard across the class. The oldest members of the class are now 23 years old, and have plenty of life left in them, so surely a decent model must be crying out to be done. Factor in differences in livery detail and exhausts (and 59201s doors), and you're looking at over 15 unique variations. Plus Bachmann have a chassis block and bogie inners the right size...

 

cheers

 

jo

[The Stationmaster]

I don't know about the subject of speculation being done to death but it's beginning to look as if the number of threads about it is going that way

[Trains4U]

I don't know about the subject of speculation being done to death but it's beginning to look as if the number of threads about it is going that way

 

I don't see this as a speculation thread at all. It is a viability thread

 

I think it's good idea. It's certainly a break from the usual wishlisting froth.

[Glorious NSE]

Hi,

 

Just to put some 'Modern Image' things on here:

 

Electrostars:

 

Class 377 / 375 / 376 / 357 can be made with only cab modified

Southern livery

Southeastern Livery

First Capital Connect Livery

C2C Green livery

C2C Purple livery

C2C / National Express Livery

Dual voltage units

3 / 4 / 5 car units

 

376's have different passenger doors, inside sliding rather than external plug, so would probably not be do-able with the same body tool as the others - however if you did do a 376 variation then it may also match the 378s bodyshell as well - I haven't checked but it seems likely.

 

C2C will get a 4th livery on their 357s as well, as their franchise is not being renewed.

 

There's a few livery variants on the Southeastern ones as well - and did they arrive in Connex branding?

 

Well 9 liveries on essentially one wagon isn't bad going:

http://spreadsheets....vYg&output=html

The most recent design of TEA tank sees 9 liveries, with only minor detail variations needed, if any at all, depending on which livery.

They appear in Petrochem Carless, Caib blue and grey, Petroplus red, VTG red grey and blue, EWS and Freightliner. Bachmann already do the TF25 bogies...

 

10 if you include the GERS/Murco ones, which are different but i'd have said close enough in styling and I suspect likely to be popular enough to be worth putting the livery on.

 

They are well travelled as well, covering everything from Sth Wales, East Anglia to the North East & North West, although not Scotland (Scottish modellers aren't too badly served though as the current flows are modelleable with Bachmann's 1960s style tanks)

 

I'd add a 20m Desiro EMU (class 350/450) to the list as well.

 

350 First Great Eastern (First Group barbie)

350 Plain Blue/ONE Anglia

350 NXEA silver/white

350 Heathrow Connect

350 London Midland

450 South West Trains

 

Again in terms of usage it covers the South Coast to Preston, and east to Harwich...not bad!

 

The diesel class 185 variant I think would be a popular model as well but it has a 23m bodyshell only used by these (although there might be some similarities with the new 380 in Scotland which I think is also a 23m Desiro coach?) - and a 185 is only good for 2 liveries, both First group blue, and one of which was very short lived!

 

The 444s also have a 23m Desiro coach body but with doors at the outer ends, so they are different to all the others...you might get a common cab end with the 450s but that's about it.

[43179]

My vote would be for the lovely Class 442

Liveries to date:

NSE

NSE with SWT Stagecoach stickers,

Stagecoach NSE style livery (only carried on one unit though)

Original SWT with half yellow gangways

Revised SWT with Full yellow gangways

Revised(again) SWT livery (with orange cab doors)

Gatwick express livery -

 

and im sure these units will go on long enough to get a few more liveries too...

 

A few different tooling combinations would be required however - to cover the changes in the jumper cable cable covers on the cabs, and also the two rebuilds of the (former)buffet car, motor car, guards van or whatever you want to call it.

 

In modelling terms The 442 has one big advantage over other multiple units , which is motor buffet being right in the centre of the train is an ideal place to hide a proper flywheel drive chassis , without having to compromise any of the interior seating. Plus the unit would always be pushing and pulling the same number of unpowered vehicles no matter what direction its running.

 

tfn

 

179

[DIW]

My vote would be for the lovely Class 442

Liveries to date:

NSE

NSE with SWT Stagecoach stickers,

Stagecoach NSE style livery (only carried on one unit though)

Original SWT with half yellow gangways

Revised SWT with Full yellow gangways

Revised(again) SWT livery (with orange cab doors)

Gatwick express livery -

 

 

 

I must get round to building my MTK kit of the 442 - that will surely prompt the RTR version you crave.......

 

Dave

[zabdiel]

I'd have thought that a manufacturer would give the 442 a livery score of 3.5 to 4 as some of those liveries are fairly similar. Whereas the 350 for instance has 5 distinctly different liveries (at least I think they're all fairly different). The 442 certainly has 3 distinctively different liveries and a decent time range too - it may well become a viable proposition if Bachmann do a refurbished 4-CEP. (I hope they do both)

[vc-10]

Wouldn't a Wessie share parts with regular HST or loco-haul Mk.3s? Not direct replacements, but some parts?

 

The shortie Desiros are a very compelling idea- Just 2 different body styles, and apart from the underframe equipment (3 styles- 25Kv, 3rd rail, dual voltage, some shared between all 3?) and panto the difference is just the cabs. A wide ranging unit for comparatively little outlay. Would I be right in thinking that the 2 'driving' cars are the same in each unit?

[edcayton]

Gordon Highlander in GNoSR, LNER and BR liveries, and as preserved. This would also be the SECR (C class?) in the most beautiful of the pre-grouping liveries plus Southern and BR. This would please modellers of both ends of the country and I am sure that many people, including myself, would find an excuse to run "the Soljer" in the late 50's/early 60's-after all they ran the Jones goods on the Hitchin-Bedford line for filming.

 

Ed

 

PS in the cold light of day it ain't the C class(that's an 0-6-0), but I can't remember what class it was on the SEC and Southern.

[Glorious NSE]

The shortie Desiros are a very compelling idea- Just 2 different body styles, and apart from the underframe equipment (3 styles- 25Kv, 3rd rail, dual voltage, some shared between all 3?) and panto the difference is just the cabs. A wide ranging unit for comparatively little outlay. Would I be right in thinking that the 2 'driving' cars are the same in each unit?

 

Just digging a bit, i've not really got enough info to hand to do London Midland and Heathrow Connect (neither help the job of counting windows by having dark bands round them either!) but here's what I reckon for the FGE/NXEA and SWT fleets body-wise:

 

SWT

Driving cars the same, non driving cars also the same (both have toilets) apart from one having a pantograph well. If you tooled 2/3rds of a coach to be "standard" (with a join at the doors) and then added either a gangwayed cab end or toilet end you might be able to cover them with one basic body, three roofs and two car ends.

 

FGE/NXEA

Driving cars both the same, but only one intermediate car has a toilet (under the pan well) - will need a non-gangwayed cab end (shared with the Heathrow Connect units) and a non-toilet intermediate car end adding. I've not enough info to tell whether the toilet area windows are the same size as the SWT ones either.

 

Modular construction like Bachmann has used for the 158/166/170 would suit and let you build a bodyshell to suit from a kit of parts.

 

There might be detail differences on intermediate car ends but i've not enough info to look at that, similarly underframe equipment will likely vary, although it's also all supposed to be modular...

[Ron Ron Ron]

Aren't the East Anglian and Heathrow Connect Desiros 360's and not 350's ?

AFAIA only LM have the 350 - /1 & /2

 

Apart from being the largest classes (by number) of all trains on UK rails today, Desiros and Electrostars have to be number 1 & 2 for anyone modelling the southern half of the country post 2000.

As demonstrated there are sufficient livery variations to widen the appeal too.

 

Whatever way the various differences can be accomodated for viable production, I really do hope that one of the RTR manufacturers will do them. Soon !

 

Also, 442's would be most welcome too.

 

I must declare self interest here. I'll have at least a dozen.

 

.

[43179]

I'd have thought that a manufacturer would give the 442 a livery score of 3.5 to 4 as some of those liveries are fairly similar. Whereas the 350 for instance has 5 distinctly different liveries (at least I think they're all fairly different). The 442 certainly has 3 distinctively different liveries and a decent time range too - it may well become a viable proposition if Bachmann do a refurbished 4-CEP. (I hope they do both)

 

Very true - technically the wessex has only ever had 4 completely different liveries, so in that respect not quite as versatile as something like the class 59 , but the 442 is a pretty striking looking unit in any livery ,, the styling of the cabs alone (assuming they're modelled correctly)would be a big selling point I'd have thought. The 442s also have a wide sphere of operation , into Dorset, and more recently Brighton , not just trundling round london. Its still (IMO) the only proper express emu in the country that gives you the level of comfort that shoud be expected on a long distance journey and should be recognised for it. (I feel sorry for anyone that has to travel on an electrostar or Des*ro long distance in the winter - freezing to death every time the doors open).

 

Althought its of less personal interest to me , the same logic for the justifying a class 59 could be applied to the class 73, im sure both locos will be tapped into soon though...

 

tfn

 

179

[43179]

Wouldn't a Wessie share parts with regular HST or loco-haul Mk.3s? Not direct replacements, but some parts?

 

 

none im afriad - unlike mk3s , the wessex units have powered swing plug doors, and big recesses in the ends of the vehicles for jumper cables etc , as well as extra mountings on the bottom of the body for the dampers and suspension balloons. The underframe pods also differ to MK3 stock , with the wesex units having shoe fuses down there amongst other things.

All new tooling would be required - although externally both drivings cars are identical , the two intermediate trailers are also identical apart from one window blanked off ,

and then the motor- buffet so I suppose a 5 car Piggy should only need three different bodyshells tooled up....

 

tfn

 

'179

[Glorious NSE]

Aren't the East Anglian and Heathrow Connect Desiros 360's and not 350's ?

AFAIA only LM have the 350 - /1 & /2

 

Ooops - yep! Well spotted!

 

376 vs 378 bodysides don't look bad either...

[Glorious NSE]

Okay - how about a leftfield suggestion - class 175 and 180

 

Fairly sure it's a common bodyshell, but with very different cab ends, 2, 3 or 5 car formations as needed. These would have been a dead loss a couple of years back both from a liveries and area of use point of view but I reckon the recent changes have pulled some winning schemes from the hat - the black & orange Grand Central ones in particular look very striking.

 

(updated 10th Dec)

 

175:

First Barbie (FNW)

Arriva Trains Wales (fade-out)

Arriva Trains Wales (curved)

 

180:

First Barbie (FGW)

Debranded Barbie

First Dynamic Lines (Hull Trains)

Grand Central black/orange

Northern Rail lilac stripes

[Dick Turpin]

Here??™s another well trodden case from the Northern reaches of the LNER.

 

LNER J27 0-6-0:

 

1. Round spectacle plate (J26)

2. Shaped spectacle plate (J27 - mainly)

3. Superheated (extended smokebox)

4. NER lined black (as preserved)

5. LNER black (early)

6. LNER black (late)

7. BR black (British Railways on tender)

8. BR black (early crest)

9. BR black (late crest)

10 Variety of boiler fittings (Ramsbottom or Ross pop safety valves, chimney and dome shapes etc)

 

Summary:

 

Another case of different permutations possible by mix and match, and there is a preserved example available for reference. Again, the tender is available for use with different models giving the possibility of developing a NER family of related classes. It is also beefy enough to allow for the fitting of a decent mechanism so it can haul plenty of those 21T hoppers that are going to re-appear at some point. And although based in the North East, they did roam quite a bit, especially the superheated versions, and they were among the very last pre-group steam in operation on BR. The choice of livery may seem a bit limited at first, being black, black or black, but there does need to be some balance in any collection to contrast with all that colour and glamour!

[surfsup]

And from Bachmann, with minor body changes could also be able to produce the 317 Varieties, aswell as the 318,319,320,321,322 and 455,456 Fleets

 

Sure enough the 319/321 Would need new cab fronts and minor window arrangement variations but they are all still based upon the MK3 bodyshell and apart from the motor bogies, all share some underfloor similarities.

 

Although not involving much work in the tolling stage, but if a 442 were to be produced, then that can easily give way to a correct Irish Rail Mk3 - same doors and window layout minus the half centred window bar on the toilet windows.

 

Oh and by the way, id be up for a 442 in SWT livery and TPE 185 if there every was one RTR produced.

 

 

Northern hasnt done much to the Ex FGW Barbie Livery on the 180s, but heres what they now looks like - near to the bottom of the page

 

http://www.therailwaycentre.com/Picture%20of%20the%20Day%20index/Old_POD_Jan2009.html

[Glorious NSE]

Northern hasnt done much to the Ex FGW Barbie Livery on the 180s, but heres what they now looks like - near to the bottom of the page

 

I think that's enough to count as a different livery - I hadn't included them as i'd thought they would still be in plain Barbie with patches.

 

I'll update the list.

[Ravenser]

Just digging a bit, i've not really got enough info to hand to do London Midland and Heathrow Connect (neither help the job of counting windows by having dark bands round them either!) but here's what I reckon for the FGE/NXEA and SWT fleets body-wise:

 

SWT

Driving cars the same, non driving cars also the same (both have toilets) apart from one having a pantograph well. If you tooled 2/3rds of a coach to be "standard" (with a join at the doors) and then added either a gangwayed cab end or toilet end you might be able to cover them with one basic body, three roofs and two car ends.

 

FGE/NXEA

Driving cars both the same, but only one intermediate car has a toilet (under the pan well) - will need a non-gangwayed cab end (shared with the Heathrow Connect units) and a non-toilet intermediate car end adding. I've not enough info to tell whether the toilet area windows are the same size as the SWT ones either.

 

Modular construction like Bachmann has used for the 158/166/170 would suit and let you build a bodyshell to suit from a kit of parts.

 

There might be detail differences on intermediate car ends but i've not enough info to look at that, similarly underframe equipment will likely vary, although it's also all supposed to be modular...

 

 

The Great Eastern units are 360s with no through corridor connection on the cab (The GE has never believed in corridors all the way through - gangwayed cabs are an Eastleigh thing..) As far as I'm aware none of the units ever had One livery - they went from Barbie to interim (Barbie with all the stripe vinyls ripped off leaving them in plain blue, with an NXEA white vinyl stripe ) and a few I think into NXEA

[Glorious NSE]

The Great Eastern units are 360s with no through corridor connection on the cab (The GE has never believed in corridors all the way through - gangwayed cabs are an Eastleigh thing..)

 

Uh-huh....

 

will need a non-gangwayed cab end (shared with the Heathrow Connect units)

 

As far as I'm aware none of the units ever had One livery - they went from Barbie to interim (Barbie with all the stripe vinyls ripped off leaving them in plain blue, with an NXEA white vinyl stripe ) and a few I think into NXEA

 

I'd sorta assumed the plain blue without the white stripes was at the end of ONE (nobody has said they were actually in ONE livery) but that could easily have been the start of NXEA - they definately ran for a bit in plain blue with no stripes.

[Steadfast]

I seem to recall that the reason they never got One livery was that there was a warranty on the paint by Siemens, and a repaint would void this... Still think First looked the best on these units though

 

cheers

 

jo

[surfsup]

none im afriad - unlike mk3s , the wessex units have powered swing plug doors, and big recesses in the ends of the vehicles for jumper cables etc , as well as extra mountings on the bottom of the body for the dampers and suspension balloons. The underframe pods also differ to MK3 stock , with the wesex units having shoe fuses down there amongst other things.

All new tooling would be required - although externally both drivings cars are identical , the two intermediate trailers are also identical apart from one window blanked off ,

and then the motor- buffet so I suppose a 5 car Piggy should only need three different bodyshells tooled up....

 

tfn

 

'179

 

Ah

 

Sorry, excuse my ignorance - missed this post whilst quickly browsing through here in college the other day.

 

Didnt actually notice that much difference with the 442s compared to the irish Mk3s, although despite having them on my line, they were until 2005/6, just an everyday train...sadly that changed pretty quickly.

 

But id still be up for both a set of Irish Rail Mk3s and a 442