Jon020 Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Dear all; first entry for the year.., and not a productive one I’m afraid. A plea, if you would be so kind. In mid December, I won an auction for some Ultrascale 18.83 Bach 08 wheels. They arrived days before Christmas and a cursory glance (all that there was time for in the run up to the 25th) revealed them to have been used... and not quite in the condition I’d hoped for. A retrospective look again at the picture on-line did show that what I’d thought was shadow, was in fact paint. Oh, and Bachmann coupling rods were attached. These were also daubed with paint, but I presumed that this didn’t matter as I’d replace these... and I put them away until time (and life) allowed a better look. A couple of weeks ago time prevailed, I took them out again and set about undoing the nuts to release the rods. They wouldn’t budge! Grasping the nuts carefully, and then turning the wheel purely resulted in what looked like the whole insert in the crank pin boss turning. With no way of holding this still, there was no way to turn the nut on the thread. I’ve tried each wheel with the same result in each case. Nuts and threaded insert (screw) as one. Disappointed, I contacted the vendor to advise them of this condition, which I felt didn’t reflect the “buy to save the 3 month wait†advertisement. Last week I contacted the resolution centre as no response could be obtained from the vendor; I did not think that it was unreasonable to seek a refund on an item that I was having trouble making useable. The vendor thinks otherwise, and sees that they’ve done nothing wrong. This is again, disappointing. So, here I include a few pictures to show how these arrived, and the article’s condition. I have tried a number of times now to remove the nuts to allow disassembly of the “hardly finescale†fittings and rods... but failed each time. Can anyone offer a technical solution to assist in this instance? I also note that the wheels do not have the balance weights fitted; I now presume that this is something that we have to do ourselves. Anyone care to add comment to this either... assuming I am able to take advice and make these usable? Thanks... Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MickD Posted January 26, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted January 26, 2012 Hi,Jon Sorry I cant help with the coupling rod nuts,I assume they have either had Loctite applied which should break when you turn the nut,or worse case been super glued. You could try super glue solvent I suppose. The wheel balance weights are left for you to fabricate.I used etched ones from kits that I had spare.Other alternative is to make them from plasticard. Not much help I'm afraid. MickD. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tim V Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 With care you can put a screwdriver through the spokes to find 14BA screws that form the crankpins. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamieb Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 Would it not be easier to just remove the outside cranks and replace them with some new ones? If not Ultrascale,I'm sure Gibson would have something suitable.Better than risk damaging the wheels Jamie Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Porcy Mane Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 The wheel balance weights are left for you to fabricate.I used etched ones from kits that I had spare.Other alternative is to make them from plasticard. Or buy the dedicated lazer cut ultrascale balance weights at 30p a packet. https://www.ultrascale.com/eshop/products/view/CAT031/496 Don't know how long the wait will be for them though? HtH Porcy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 26, 2012 Author Share Posted January 26, 2012 With care you can put a screwdriver through the spokes to find 14BA screws that form the crankpins. Thanks Tim. When I looked, the back of this looked solid, so I couldn't see a way to get "onto" that threaded shaft. I think that when the nut turns, th threaded shaft (bolt?) turns with it inside the crankpin boss... I can't see how to hold it still. Just had another look. Ok... 4 of them are sealed at the back, but two I can see the screw head. Great. I think there's a thin plastic bit at the bottom of this hole so I'll see if I can remove it from he 4 sealed ones. I'll give it a go. Ta... all Or buy the dedicated lazer cut ultrascale balance weights at 30p a packet. https://www.ultrasca...view/CAT031/496 Don't know how long the wait will be for them though? HtH Porcy Thanks Porcy... ah yes, the wait! Hmmm. I'm working my 47 at the moment (blog just posted) ... so we'll see if the wait can be tolerated. Thanks... all! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Fatadder Posted January 26, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 26, 2012 Don't go for brute force I had the same problem with one of my sets, (which had been fitted with locktight) in the end used brute force and broke the the crank pins off Was recommended putting it in hot water. Next time I buy some ultrascales I will be trying to get a replacement part Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 26, 2012 Share Posted January 26, 2012 I'd try applying the tip of a soldering iron to the nuts - that should quickly break down any Loctite. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 A set of the Brassmasters rods makes a big difference to the 08s and they give you the balance weights too. Hopefully you can get through to the remaining crankpins to get the nuts off. If you need a bit of force you might have to bite the bullet and get the cranks off to avoid damaging the wheels. The crankpins can always be replaced with new 14ba screws. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Il Grifone Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 I assume the Bachmann rods are candidates for the bin, so the easiest way would be to cut through them and, once out of the way the crankpin can be gripped behind the nut and the latter removed. A drop of superglue should then fix the pin ready for reassembly. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Could you use a slitting disc. the 2mm thick ones, to grind away the nuts? That would free off the coupling rods, separate the wheelsets, and the crankpins could then be screwed out from the front using a pair of thin-nosed pliers? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
craigwelsh Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 crankpins could then be screwed out from the front using a pair of thin-nosed pliers? You'd destroy the cranks trying to take the screwhead of the crankpin through the front i'd think. I'd also not recommend trying Hornby rods as the joint in them is awful and the Brassmasters ones look more realistic anyway. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozzyo Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 Grind off the crankpin nuts, as it sounds like the steel crankpins (screw are just turning in the outside cranks) you may then be able to tap the screws out using a length of brass over your vice with a hole drilled in it to clear the screw head. But this may mean having to use 12BA screws for the crankpins. If you can get the outside cranks off and some new ones this maybe your best bet. OzzyO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 28, 2012 Author Share Posted January 28, 2012 Dear all, I'd like to thank you all for the suggestions. I tried freeing it all using the screwdriver through the spokes... but no luck. I need to find time to try the other tricks, and yes I will probably be better off cutting the coupling rods and working them seperately. In parallel, I've given up on the vendor who was giving me grief, accusing me of not seeking help with this on the Scale4 forum so that I could escalate the issue. I'd not said that that was where I'd be seeking help - spying a little? Felt a bit pieved about this as I thought I'd see a better response to my request on here; which I feel I have - thanks all. Clearly the vendor was keen to see me respond to the issue quickly, even though he felt quite happy to keep me waiting over a week for my response. I will continue to try to solve these problem, but, I realise that this conversion is now looking quite difficult ... and it might have to go onto the back burner.... The parts were bought because the opportunity presented itself.., I will convert my 08 and use Ultrascale wheels. I will try everything I can to use these items although I recognise that so far my attempts have been without success - considering I paid almost as much as a new set, I'm disappointed and really quite annoyed..., only partly at myself. C'est la vie. It's only money... something that can be made back up again; time is something that can't be recovered... and I'm not wasting any more of it on the vendor... but I will use it to try to recover these items and make them work... Thanks all.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isambard Kingdom Brunel Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 I would agree that to sacrifice the coupling Rods should enable the crank pins to be removed. These can be replaced fairly cheaply, unlike the wheels themselves. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Jonathan There are realy 2 parts to this answer and you will have to decide which route you will take. Ebay How were the wheels described? If new you should have a case, or if described better than they are again you may be OK. But if just used or spares or repair, they buyer beware. If you do anything to the wheels that may alter the condition in which they were recieved, then again you do not have a case to answer. What you must decide is, in the condition they are in even if they are not in the condition you thought they were in 'are they still a good buy !!'. If the answer is yes then do what you have to do to make them useable, OK they may not be quite the bargin you thought but if they are serviceably and will save you a 3 month wait, that in its self may be more important to you. Some are quite happy to pay over the top rather than wait. On Ebay unless something is totally different to the description, then its just the rub of the green. More often than not I end up with an item much better than thought, every now and then I either pay too much or buy a dud. I end up winning far more than loose. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
meil Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 Pull the cranks off with a wheel puller. That frees up the wheels for you to remove and refurbish. You can now get to the back of the cranks and hence the screw heads. If you still cannot remove the crank pins then grind off the nut carefully, as suggested earlier, with a slitting disc - very carefully so as not to generate too much heat - AND WEAR EYE PROTECTION. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JeffP Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 You'd destroy the cranks trying to take the screwhead of the crankpin through the front i'd think. No, you misunderstand: once the nuts are gone, that allows the rods to fall off. That will expose the screw thread. Grip this with a pair of thin nosed pliers and start turning it OUTwards towards the rear, in other words, turn it clockwise from the front. That ought to get it going until you can repeat from the rear. I've done the same on bolts rusted into place and sheared off on cars: turn them out backwards, not forwards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 29, 2012 Author Share Posted January 29, 2012 Jonathan There are realy 2 parts to this answer and you will have to decide which route you will take. Ebay How were the wheels described? If new you should have a case, or if described better than they are again you may be OK. But if just used or spares or repair, they buyer beware. If you do anything to the wheels that may alter the condition in which they were recieved, then again you do not have a case to answer. What you must decide is, in the condition they are in even if they are not in the condition you thought they were in 'are they still a good buy !!'. If the answer is yes then do what you have to do to make them useable, OK they may not be quite the bargin you thought but if they are serviceably and will save you a 3 month wait, that in its self may be more important to you. Some are quite happy to pay over the top rather than wait. On Ebay unless something is totally different to the description, then its just the rub of the green. More often than not I end up with an item much better than thought, every now and then I either pay too much or buy a dud. I end up winning far more than loose. Hi, the condition was described as "--". The photo wasn't too clear, but perhaps i should've asked more questions, like why the coupling rods fitted. Seller very much of the opinion that he's not done anythign wrong. Can't say I'm quite of the same opinion, but I just can't be bothered with the hassle of it... he's been very defensive and communications have been along the lline of "i've done nothign wrong, how dare you accuse me of selling something that can't be used" ... only became slighty more understanding when I said I was seeking advice on a forum. He then became shirty when he saw nothing on Scale 4 forum... and accused me of doing nothing so I could escalate the case. At this point I thought f### it... he's a [edit - unhelpfull sort] and I just can't be bothered with him anymore. So I closed the case. As I said, I'm more interested is seeing if the parts can be used, and I get enough agro from people professionally ... and really can't be doing with this sort of behavour in my hobby. So.... the avenue is closed. The parts would not want to be used by anyone in their current condition - sloppy couplg rods - so I wouldn't want anyone else to be faced with them either. ... so no resale on ebay. But thanks Pull the cranks off with a wheel puller. That frees up the wheels for you to remove and refurbish. You can now get to the back of the cranks and hence the screw heads. If you still cannot remove the crank pins then grind off the nut carefully, as suggested earlier, with a slitting disc - very carefully so as not to generate too much heat - AND WEAR EYE PROTECTION. No, you misunderstand: once the nuts are gone, that allows the rods to fall off. That will expose the screw thread. Grip this with a pair of thin nosed pliers and start turning it OUTwards towards the rear, in other words, turn it clockwise from the front. That ought to get it going until you can repeat from the rear. I've done the same on bolts rusted into place and sheared off on cars: turn them out backwards, not forwards. Neither of the above two ideas work as the ultrascale crankpin studs are not fitted through the rear of the crank. therefore there is no access from the rear. The crankpins studs (not screws) are assembled from the front. This is a pic from a forthcoming article showing the crank assy. You can either bung them back on ebay describing that the rods are not changeable and recover some/all of your money. You bought them, someone else may do the same, describe them accurately, no come back on you. Alternatively use them as they are accepting the Bachmann rods, or if the whole assembly is revolving see if you can remove the whole nut and stud assembly as one piece. (contact Uscle to see if the studs are left or right hand thread when assembled first. This may give you the option of getting the whole assembly out so you can fit rods of your choice, and replace them using loctite on the stud thread during re-assembly. I think that taking all of these into account, it does look like when I turn the nut, the shaft turns too, and it does look like the base is coming away from the crank pin hub. I will take the advice onboard and give it all a go... as and when time permits. I'll let you know if I succeed; I'm not holding my breath Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hayfield Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 When ever either there is no description and of poor photo, I think the worst and set my bidding accordingly. Most times it comes out OK. If you are taking off the cranks with the coupling rods still on, then try this. When I am taking apart a kit-built loco which has been glued together, parts get a dunk in boiling water as this degrades both epoxy and super glue. For a few seconds first and gradually increasing the time, works a treat but dont let the parts touch the bottom of the pan. Tip, do it when the wife's out. Sorry to hear about the sellers attitude, thankfully most sellers are nice guys. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Horsetan Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 .... He then became shirty when he saw nothing on Scale 4 forum... So he's a member of the Society, then? Hmmm...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 The seller is a member of this site and raised this topic as a complaint. I asked for a link to the sale and evidence of his counter-claims which (to this point) was not provided. I did however find the listing on ebay and saw that the items were described as "Complete,in perfect working order" with no mention of the fact that they were used or had paint on them (which isn't wholly obvious from the image used in the listing). I would feel justified in making the complaint too and I have advised the seller that an honourable thing to do would have been to offered a refund with the buyer bearing the cost of the return postage and suggested that this could still be an option. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon020 Posted January 30, 2012 Author Share Posted January 30, 2012 Dear Andy, thank you for your message of what I will take as support. I feel it best to keep to the technical solution points for this thread.., as I will wish to use these items at some point in the future, although I now suspect that it will be later rather than sooner. Thanks... Jon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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