trisonic Posted January 29, 2012 Share Posted January 29, 2012 The key thing is that in the US market, Bachmann is 'one of many' whereas in the UK, Bachmann can (and wants to) be a market leader, simply due to the inherent smaller market the UK has to offer. Really, you can't compare the two... The US market is a significant order of magnitude bigger then even the most optimistic estimates of the UK... Note that marketing itself plays a major part too: were does Bachmann wants to position itself? They clearly don't want to be perceived as 'toy-makers' but they certainly can't compete with the brass section either... As for Lilliput being too expensive: that's entirely a matter of perception. Last year I got me an NG diesel loco and 2 carriages, including the corresponding conversion sets from 9 to 12 mm gauge, for less then the cost of a Bemo loco... Interesting. I wasn't even considering the "brass section" (though I like the name). For a company that wants to dominate then accepting dominance in the British market only doesn't make any sense. They have to make a play for the North American market. There are other factors involved other than just following "blueprints" to make an accurate model - but I'm not sure that any of them apply to Bachmann - their manufacturing "arm" can obviously achieve it. I just think that they don't have the commitment of a first class management team in place in North America right now. The more I think about it the more they really have to do this. When you get to the point that you are getting comments that stores will not stock your product because of customer complaints over quality then you HAVE to take action or get out. Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 but this situation has been in cahoots with the printed press As per another thread on this forum, there seems to be a malaise between objectivity & subjectivity... and not only applicable to the printed press... dilbert Translation, please, other than your obvious antipathy towards the printed press. CHRIS LEIGH Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Translation, please, other than your obvious antipathy towards the printed press. CHRIS LEIGH Let's put this in the perspective of my original post... I never thought that I would end up defending Hornby on this forum, but time to buck the trend here? ... I totally disagree with the daft Hornby embargo (the latest version was more than useless), but this situation has been in cahoots with the printed press and exacerbated due to the rapidity of info flow with the Internet. It was interesting to note how different web fora approached this... But in case you haven't voted for your favourite 2011 model of the year, you may want to check out the categories in the coaching and wagon sections, the selections presented are very interesting : Coaching - only new models are Hornby Wagon (steam) - all new models are Hornby Wagon (modern - there are 2 models each from Hornby and Bachmann As per another thread on this forum, there seems to be a malaise between objectivity & subjectivity... and not only applicable to the printed press. You may not agree with Hornby's pricing policy, they do still chrun out 'old' stuff that doesn't need much to make it look good - you pays your money and you make your choice.. dilbert The embargo is a contrived situation. Not a problem in itself per se, but when it is broken on an annual basis ... I suggest you read (if not yet done ) the 'nitpicking' thread (now locked)... as for antipathy... I was drawing a comparison with someone who had stated that 'but they still churn out plenty of the same "OLD" models "wagons & coaches" and expect modellers to pay a premium'. ... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 For a company that wants to dominate then accepting dominance in the British market only doesn't make any sense. They have to make a play for the North American market. There are other factors involved other than just following "blueprints" to make an accurate model - but I'm not sure that any of them apply to Bachmann - their manufacturing "arm" can obviously achieve it. I just think that they don't have the commitment of a first class management team in place in North America right now. Could it be possible that they are wishing to establish a strong position elsewhere in the world before they attempt to tackle what I would perceive is the juggernaught that is the North American Modelling scene? I don't have enough knowledge of what's on offer over that side of the pond, but having any presence there ready to improve once they've asserted dominance elsewhere to give them the financial base to expand into that sphere? That said, having a committed management team as you note has to be essential as well. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
autocoach Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think the North American and European/UK operations are run as very independent arms of Kader. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
LIRR Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 I think the North American and European/UK operations are run as very independent arms of Kader. It's good to see some business success these days. It does seem very inconsistent when Bachmann Europe (UK), Lilliput (DE) and Bachmann USA have very different marketing strategies. I suppose that's what happens when they were faced with dominance from Maerklin and Hornby in Europe and established competitors such as Atlas, Athearn, and so on in the US. If the UK arm is making good money then perhaps we will see some of the profits invested in better products elsewhere, or even a purchase of an established competetor's brand. Andy Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 1, 2012 I wasn't even considering the "brass section" (though I like the name). Does that place Hornby fans in the Wind section? Good news coming from Barwell. And in stark contrast to that from Margate. Quite simply Bachmann UK present top quality models at value-for-money prices. That much can seldom be said for Hornby although with some honourable exceptions among which are the illuminated Pullman cars. For my money (and as a 00 modeller) Dapol is pushing hard to achieve its ranking among the bigger players and has just begun to show what they might do but has a long way to go to rid themselves of the less refined wagons still found across the range and the dreadful red weathering film which peels off in chunks when looked at! The N0gauge range is a lesser-known quantity to me and I believe is much better. Heljan still remain in the No.2 slot in my books and a look in my "box cupboard" reveals a sea of blue, quite a lot of it lighter than the Barwell shade A dwindling amount of red will diminish still further once Dapol bring their class 22 and 52 to the shelves. I do believe Bachmann are in tune with their market and Dapol likewise. Heljan are a little less forthcoming but the products are generally very robust despite a few (relatively minor) glitches. Hornby may be trying to offer too much to too many across too wide a market share and therefore failing to make headway in any meaningful way. But why, for example, would I buy non flush-glaze Mk1 coaches of an acknowledged less refined design and finish from them when I can have the Bachmann product at much the same price? Or why buy a Vep with all its issues when I can have a much better Cep for much less even before retailer discounts? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
frobisher Posted February 1, 2012 Share Posted February 1, 2012 But why, for example, would I buy non flush-glaze Mk1 coaches of an acknowledged less refined design and finish from them when I can have the Bachmann product at much the same price? The Hornby MK1s are flush glazed these days - the other faults remain. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold papagolfjuliet Posted February 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2012 The Hornby MK1s are flush glazed these days - the other faults remain. Are there any in the catalogue at all this year? Their use seems to have been restricted to train packs of late and I'm not sure that you'll even find them in packs in the 2012 catalogue. They'll probably vanish for a year or two and then pop up in the Railroad range. Mind you, it is only this year that an RTR alternative to their Mk.1 sleeper has become available. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 1, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 1, 2012 There are no BR Mk I coaches in the Hornby catalogue for 2012 - in fact their coaches line-up overall now looks pretty impressive albeit with a few 'oldies' (e.g. the ex-Airfix autocoach) filling some gaps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 The N0gauge range is a lesser-known quantity to me Me too Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Phil Posted February 2, 2012 Share Posted February 2, 2012 Certainly good news Andy Y and thanks for sharing. I don't mind admitting I am biased towards Bachmann and the only loco I bought in 2011 was a 3F. Paying a boxshifter price of £63 was far far more palatable than over a hundred pounds for an admittedly larger Hornby 38xx, or another 8F, which were my next choices. Covhop or iron ore wagon in terms of RRP ? The Covhop is a much more costly wagon to produce, so lets wait and see eh ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
vikingsmb Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 to be perfectly honest (in my opinion) Hornby don't really give a dam about us (the customer) whereas Bachmann do. because they (Hornby) won't bring out decent DMU's etc and Pre TOPS blue locos and motors are weak. I don't buy off them anymore. I'm only buying Bachmann because they have brought out for us (pre tops blue lot) class 108/105 in blue, derby lightweight, a class 24, class 25, class 04, class 20, class 47, class 46 (D181 and the new one), class 55 to name but a few and have twin bogie drive on all models and have loads of guts , Whereas Hornby haven't. Hornby if you are reading this. you seriously need to take heed of what we the customer are saying and want. End of Rant. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 to be perfectly honest (in my opinion) Hornby don't really give a dam about us (the customer) whereas Bachmann do. because they (Hornby) won't bring out decent DMU's etc and Pre TOPS blue locos and motors are weak. I don't buy off them anymore. I'm only buying Bachmann because they have brought out for us (pre tops blue lot) class 108/105 in blue, derby lightweight, a class 24, class 25, class 04, class 20, class 47, class 46 (D181 and the new one), class 55 to name but a few and have twin bogie drive on all models and have loads of guts , Whereas Hornby haven't. Hornby if you are reading this. you seriously need to take heed of what we the customer are saying and want. End of Rant. Of course Hornby wouldn't give a dam, but they probably do give a damn. Parking the wishlisting to one side, any new model announcements, given the wide choice of 1:1 prototypes will always appeal to a minority of the overall model railway population. No point in busting a gut over it, especially when it comes to livery selection... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 4, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 4, 2012 Of course Hornby wouldn't give a dam, but they probably do give a damn. Parking the wishlisting to one side, any new model announcements, given the wide choice of 1:1 prototypes will always appeal to a minority of the overall model railway population. No point in busting a gut over it, especially when it comes to livery selection... dilbert Exactly so. Just because Hornby haven't announced this year precisely what an individual wants - down to the livery and number - doesn't mean that they don't give a damn about us (their customers). Don't forget at the same time they are satisfying other customers because they have announced things which they want. In fact 'they don't give a damn' could surely be levelled against all R-T-R manufacturers until such time as we can choose 'exactly' what we want in the livery we want with the running number we want, and we just have to press a button on a computer to get it in the post within days (and probably for the cost of a round of drinks if some folk are to be believed) there is going to be a far better than even chance that 'they' won't be making what we (I) want/ 'need'. But if they continue in business it strikes me as a clear sign that they must be making what somebody wants. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevpeo Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I only recently saw the "new" Class 37 in New York - I despair of anyone getting this prototype exactly right! Best, Pete. English Electric did back in the sixties Pete. Still (and always will be) the only 100% accurate one's! Mind, it even took them two goes at the front end and bogies!! kev Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RF900 Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 As far as D&E is concerned Hornby think that all modellers want one off colourful liveries but not liveries such as BR Blue,Green etc which have been around for longer. Out of the 26 locos I bought last year only 5 were Hornby. Hornby like to do colouful liveries for D&E without it seems any thought, look at the Class 73 in Gatwick Livery!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 English Electric did back in the sixties Pete. Still (and always will be) the only 100% accurate one's! Mind, it even took them two goes at the front end and bogies!! kev Very Good, Kev!!!!!! Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 As far as D&E is concerned Hornby think that all modellers want one off colourful liveries but not liveries such as BR Blue,Green etc which have been around for longer. ... Hornby like to do colouful liveries for D&E without it seems any thought, look at the Class 73 in Gatwick Livery!! A common feeling; whilst I'd emphasise I'm not loking to make excuses for Hornby, they must get these notions from somewhere. Perhaps (Devil's Advocate meets tin hat...) that's due to clamouring from modellers within the fragmented post privatisation market, all convinced that their favoured bit of time and space is a huge sales opportunity Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 A common feeling; whilst I'd emphasise I'm not loking to make excuses for Hornby, they must get these notions from somewhere. Perhaps (Devil's Advocate meets tin hat...) that's due to clamouring from modellers within the fragmented post privatisation market, all convinced that their favoured bit of time and space is a huge sales opportunity Sounds spot on Ian - plus one presumes that they actually manage to sell sufficient quantities to keep themselves happy and indicate that they should carry on doing it? (hoping it's big tin hat) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Hornby like to do colouful liveries for D&E without it seems any thought, look at the Class 73 in Gatwick Livery!! Perhaps that's due to clamouring from modellers within the fragmented post privatisation market, all convinced that their favoured bit of time and space is a huge sales opportunity Frankly it must be a nightmare for a manufacturer to even try to choose a post-privatized livery. Lets assume there are "N" variants of all TOC liveries, from the present and recent past. (With all the regional TOCs and the fact that they change liveries like people change shirts, "N" is a relatively big number.) Let's also assume one in ten people model the "contemporary" scene. (Polling data is actually less than this.) The total market for someone who will purchase only one livery is 10% divided by N - which is really quite a small chunk of potential business. (Of course as a practical matter, people do purhase more than one livery.) Why would a manufacturer choose Arriva-Wales or Anglia "one"? I think the answer is "why not?". The whole thing seems like a dice roll to me. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium John M Upton Posted February 6, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2012 Now me personally I was quite happy they chose the current GatEx livery 73202 as it is operated by my employer and I see it quite often! Just a pity therefore that Hornby got the livery horribly wrong!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Why would a manufacturer choose Arriva-Wales or Anglia "one"? I think the answer is "why not?". The whole thing seems like a dice roll to me. There are also licencing "rights" to be agreed which may have financial implications - this of course will depend on the TOC viewpoint... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 6, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2012 Exactly so. Just because Hornby haven't announced this year precisely what an individual wants - down to the livery and number - doesn't mean that they don't give a damn about us (their customers). Don't forget at the same time they are satisfying other customers because they have announced things which they want. Stationmaster I think the thrust of the post was not so much that Hornby isn't giving precisely what an individual wants, rather than it seems to be ignoring a whole period. As RF900 states Hornbys misguided marketing appears to suggest we all want brightly coloured or one off colour schemes, whereas they'd probably do better in good old banger blue. I'd be interested to see how sales progress of the black ACORP 87. Who on ever advised them to do that? Back to the point of the thread though. Bachmann seem to be doing particularly well serving exactly that market ie Green/Blue periods with 108s, 105s CEPs etc. More power to Bachmann. They deserve their success. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Maybe the most astute company will get around to producing 100% Southern models and nothing else. It would please an awful lot of people........... Best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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