Guest dilbert Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Stationmaster I think the thrust of the post was not so much that Hornby isn't giving precisely what an individual wants, rather than it seems to be ignoring a whole period. As RF900 states Hornbys misguided marketing appears to suggest we all want brightly coloured or one off colour schemes, whereas they'd probably do better in good old banger blue. I'd be interested to see how sales progress of the black ACORP 87. Who on ever advised them to do that? Back to the point of the thread though. Bachmann seem to be doing particularly well serving exactly that market ie Green/Blue periods with 108s, 105s CEPs etc. More power to Bachmann. They deserve their success. Whilst I agree that some of Hornby's marketing appears to be strange, the case you highlight I think is more to do with a perceived imbalance in product portfolio. I think that Bachmann at the moment has the best overall coverage. If you take Dapol, Heljan and ViTrains (in alphabetical order) '00' RTR ranges, you could argue that the imbalance is worse - not so much livery related, but the lack of steam locos in their respective standard ranges is most noticeable. So the RTR manufacturers are targetting general and niche areas of the market. If you bring in the collector side of the market then the Hornby brand takes on another dimension. The only reason I mention this is though I don't comprehend the notion of buying something and leaving it in its box, there are people who have difficulty in buying an excellent model and subjecting the model to various degrees of modification (without anesthesia ), reprehensible. I don't think Hornby's marketing is misguided in this aspect - it's all encompassing and when they get this right it's good for everyone... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Translation, please, other than your obvious antipathy towards the printed press. CHRIS LEIGH A perceived problem with the magazines is the perception that they don't want to 'bite the hand that feeds them', i.e the advertisers. The favourable review given in Model Rail to the Hornby 4VEP is an excellent example of this. ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium newbryford Posted February 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2012 Maybe the most astute company will get around to producing 100% Southern models and nothing else. It would please an awful lot of people........... It'll please 25% of pre-nationalisation modellers.......... Cheers, Mick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 8, 2012 A perceived problem with the magazines is the perception that they don't want to 'bite the hand that feeds them', i.e the advertisers. The favourable review given in Model Rail to the Hornby 4VEP is an excellent example of this. ROB Or do a follow up when some of the deficiencies are pointed out even when letters sent by SAC Martin. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
trisonic Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 It'll please 25% of pre-nationalisation modellers.......... Cheers, Mick Irony, Mick, irony...Doesn't work well on here, does it? All the best, Pete. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Or do a follow up when some of the deficiencies are pointed out even when letters sent by SAC Martin. Marketing people don't like being told their baby is ugly. They can't process the information. They spend their careers telling everyone just how lovely their baby looks. They drink the corporate Kool-Aid and it is their job to spin everything into a positive. Which is why you see articles in the Hornby collector about how to do so after-market modelling to improve your 4VEP by cutting out windows in the interior panel. The 4VEP is good because it lets you practice your modelling skills, don't you see? What might be perceived as unwillingness to communicate is more likely an inability to synthesize their day job of telling everyone how great something is with the notion that it might in fact, not be so great. This is not a Hornby thing or a big company thing, its human nature. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Marketing people don't like being told their baby is ugly. They can't process the information. Nobody would like the sort of feedback 'mother/sister/cousin... (whomever) is as ugly as hell'. On the other hand, if development of the automobile had been dependent on bicycle manufacturers, we'd be riding super-duper bicycles today. Manufacturers need to take criticism (considered constructive or not) in their stride (crappy metaphor)... A shake up from time to time is by no means unbeneficial... dllbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
S.A.C Martin Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Or do a follow up when some of the deficiencies are pointed out even when letters sent by SAC Martin. Not just me, I hasten to add (or am I becoming infamous? I hope not, but probably already there...) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bernard Lamb Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Nobody would like the sort of feedback 'mother/sister/cousin... (whomever) is as ugly as hell'. On the other hand, if development of the automobile had been dependent on bicycle manufacturers, we'd be riding super-duper bicycles today. Wasn't it a good job that it was dependent on tricycle manufacturers. Ackerman steering, pneumatic tyres and the diferential for a start. Bernard Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Wasn't it a good job that it was dependent on tricycle manufacturers. Ackerman steering, pneumatic tyres and the diferential for a start. Bernard It is interesting that as technology advances that the human race tends to generate even more rubbish. Gutenburg would be turning in his grave if he could see the outcome of his invention in today's terms... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ceptic Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Marketing people don't like being told their baby is ugly. They can't process the information. They spend their careers telling everyone just how lovely their baby looks. They drink the corporate Kool-Aid and it is their job to spin everything into a positive. Which is why you see articles in the Hornby collector about how to do so after-market modelling to improve your 4VEP by cutting out windows in the interior panel. The 4VEP is good because it lets you practice your modelling skills, don't you see? What might be perceived as unwillingness to communicate is more likely an inability to synthesize their day job of telling everyone how great something is with the notion that it might in fact, not be so great. This is not a Hornby thing or a big company thing, its human nature. No...I don't see..! ...Why I should I be required to do this to a RTR model that was "spun" to be the latest 'Dee's Bees' product from Margate !!. If the same problems had arose surrounding another new product, beit, from, whoever, I'm sure that these would have been attened to..and a might more publicly. Regards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 9, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 9, 2012 What I was getting at, and I think what Rob was referring to, was the lack of criticism in any mags and that therefore their reviews are predisposed to manufacturers. Such reviews are clearly compromised hence the comment on antipathy to the printed press Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 No...I don't see..! ...Why I should I be required to do this to a RTR model that was "spun" to be the latest 'Dee's Bees' product from Margate !!. I rather think Ozex was suggesting that in an ironic sense, i.e. from the supposed POV of the marketing man. What might be perceived as unwillingness to communicate is more likely an inability to synthesize their day job of telling everyone how great something is with the notion that it might in fact, not be so great. This is not a Hornby thing or a big company thing, its human nature. It may be human nature but it's still rather sad IMO that a key element of someone's career is based on the perpetuation of a falsehood. Maybe that's because I'm old enough to remember a more innocent time, when the best way to make a product look good was to make sure it *was* good. . Manufacturers need to take criticism (considered constructive or not) in their stride (crappy metaphor)... A shake up from time to time is by no means unbeneficial... Mmm. We do hear a lot about 'constructive criticism' and whilst I wouldnt advocate its wholesale abandonment, I would say that it can be dangerous to automatically disregard a message just because you dont care for the way it's delivered. Saying that 'the knarling sprocket on the rear bogie is rubbish' might not be the most helpful of comments, but if enough people say it, you'd kinda hope that Mr Manufacturer might take another look at it himself. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 There's a lot of currency to the idea that while Bachmann Branch Line makes a 4CEP that everyone loves and the company appears to be going from strength to strength, Hornby (which appears to be in the midst of an identiity crisis, whether small or large, I can't tell) produces a 4VEP that is roundly criticised. Many have posted that these observations are not only congruent but a bellweather for these companies. Personally, I'm not ready to go quite that far. I think it's safe to say that Hornby know they made mistakes with the 4VEP. The fact that they published an article in their collectors magazine with step by step instructions to remedy one of it's most glaringly visible deficiencies tacitly indicates that they got the message. The main point I intended with my earlier posting is that we really shouldn't expect communication, that even less bluntly worded is effectively along the lines of: Dear Customer, you are correct, we made a right mess of the <insert product here>. Please tell everyone you know not to buy one. We'd rather lose money than have people own such an inferior product. Sincerely, The Marketing Department They will still want need to shift the inventory they produced. Hopefully they will do better with future offerings, and let's not forget that they still make a lot of very nice models along with an occasional lemon/pup. But enough of them, and the 4VEP, they belong in a different thread and I apologize for belabouring the point here. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2012 I believe the comparisons are valid. Bachmann (for the UK market at least) consistently turn out high quality, well-detailed and robust models which are very good representations of the real thing. Not fault-free, sure, but neither are our 12" : 1 foot scale trains either. Hornby are capable of doing that as they have shown but have a big issue with consistency, are trying to market their product across a far wider customer base (witness the Railroad range as an example) and have more strings to their corporate bow than do Bachmann. It may be no accident that Bachmann's strategy is commercially far more successful than Hornby's. It is surely material that one brand is consistently good and well supported while another is sufficiently inconsistent that the market sector in which we here belong is voting with their wallets in many cases. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozexpatriate Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 If development of the automobile had been dependent on bicycle manufacturers, we'd be riding super-duper bicycles today. Manufacturers need to take criticism (considered constructive or not) in their stride (crappy metaphor)... A shake up from time to time is by no means unbeneficial. A thoughtful post as usual. Your first point is really about innovation. Innovation is a huge problem for most marketing organizations who tend to evolve their products (based on feedback from what their customers want) into obsolescence when they are replaced by a cheaper 'disruptive technology' that originally did not present a threat. This concept is explored by Clayton Christiansen in a book called "The Innovator's Dilemma" where he uses many iterations of disc drive technologies as an example to support his argument. I've seen the same idea labelled the Buggy Whip Mentality - referring to hypothetical buggy whip companies who listened to their customers, built the best buggy whips imagination could devise until they went out of business when demand evaporated with the advent of the horseless carriage. The second thought on criticism I would disconnect from the first. We generally aren't looking for innovation in our railway models but a combination of fidelity, reliability and performance for a price. It is possible for manufacturers to embrace criticism without a public admission. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It may be human nature but it's still rather sad IMO that a key element of someone's career is based on the perpetuation of a falsehood. Maybe that's because I'm old enough to remember a more innocent time, when the best way to make a product look good was to make sure it *was* good. And then this fad called 'programmed obsolescence' came along which takes consumerism to higher levels. An excellent example of this is womens' tights. Nylon is a quite a robust material, yet a tweak of the formula means that that tights snag frequently and are replaced. How many zillion pairs of tights are chucked out on an annual basis? The second thought on criticism I would disconnect from the first. We generally aren't looking for innovation in our railway models but a combination of fidelity, reliability and performance for a price. It is possible for manufacturers to embrace criticism without a public admission. There are two angles to innovation - one which visibly has impacts (such as the general uptake of DCC), the other relates to processes and technologies used to make the product. Reverse engineering a product is relatively simple, reverse engineering a process is more complicated. Yet when we buy a railway models, somewhere we are also purchasing innovation even if it is in the background because manufacturers continue to improve on efficiency... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
45568 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 It may be no accident that Bachmann's strategy is commercially far more successful than Hornby's. It is surely material that one brand is consistently good and well supported while another is sufficiently inconsistent that the market sector in which we here belong is voting with their wallets in many cases. I have found that in the last four or five years my buying has been mostly Bachmann with a leavening of Hornby/Heljan/Dapol, mainly due to wagon purchases for coal trains, (steam era), which Bachmann have done so well. The advent of their excellent dmu's and heavy freight and medium power locos, plus A2's have all interested, (cost!!) me. However, what began as a Hornby trickle may well turn into a flood this year as the Gresley suburbans, L1 and B1 would appear to be the start as the B17, O1 and Thompson suburbans are all due this year, all much wanted, whereas Bachmann's offerings, excellent though they will be, are not on my wanted list. I am agreeing with Gwiwer on this really, and other contributors, I vote with my wallet when a good model of a prototype I want becomes available. Both the majors, and the minors too, can separate me from cash, quality and "need" are the final arbiters of my spending. Cheers, Peter C. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob F Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 What I was getting at, and I think what Rob was referring to, was the lack of criticism in any mags and that therefore their reviews are predisposed to manufacturers. Such reviews are clearly compromised hence the comment on antipathy to the printed press You are right, that is what I was getting at. What is the point of a magazine review if all it does is tell us that everything is wonderful? I don't expect models to be perfect, it is an unattainable aspiration, but I do value the opinions of those who know more than me to point out the shortcomings in models, be they major or minor, so that I can make a more informed purchasing choice. I will still buy a model if I need or want it, it runs well, and looks like the prototype. These are the basics. But that doesn't mean I don't want to know if the bogies are on backwards,the front end shape is wrong or the livery is wrong. This is also why I think discussions on forums such as this about the minutiae of models are fascinating and I never cease to be irritated by people who harp on about 'manufacturer bashing', 'rivet counting' or the 'never had it so good' brigade. The most fatuous argument of all is the one that gets regularly wheeled out about 00 models. You all know what I am talking about - 'Why are you bothered if the front end shape is slightly wrong when the track gauge is so far out anyway' and other such tripe. The logical conclusion of that argument is to make everything look like a Lima Deltic and just paint it in different colours! The bottom line for me is that if it runs well and looks right I will probably buy it, accepting that there may be some errors or compromises along the way. But I would like the people who are paid to review models (and whose services I pay for through magazine subscriptions) to do a thorough job in pointing out ALL the deficiencies and rating the model accordingly, irrespective of whether the supplier has a full page ad 2 pages further on. Rant over! ROB Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Scottish Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Spot on Rob! Clearly there have been major deficiencies , the VEP and Clayton amongst them, that you would be hard put to find any reference to in the magazines. I really can't see the point of a review comparing something to the nth degree or complaining about the shape of something when the whole thing doesn't run at all well! Still back to Bachmann. There are points being made on consistency of range. Indeed with Bachmann I think you can have some certainty that the model will not be compromised in some way. The same is not true of Hornby where you really don't know what your are getting mechanically. Traction tyres or not?( I can't think of any Bachmann model that has traction tyres) Limby unit or something more akin to the 31/50/60. And price is no indicator. The 5 Bel is surely one of their premium models but has a Limby unit. The other thing is QC. All my recent locos are Bachmann (actually they tend to make more of what I want), they all run well from the box. Experience from Hornby has not been so good and it does have an effect. I'm really tempted by a Hornby B1 as its a Scottish version , but a wee alarm bell is ringing. What if I buy it and its a dud , can I really be bothered with all the hassle of returning it or should I just go for the Bachmann one which is less expensive but is also more likely to run well straight from the box. Bachmann deserve the plaudits. I hope its reflected in being "Manufacturer of the Year" again Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Legend Posted February 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 10, 2012 Spot on Rob! Clearly there have been major deficiencies , the VEP and Clayton amongst them, that you would be hard put to find any reference to in the magazines. I really can't see the point of a review comparing something to the nth degree or complaining about the shape of something when the whole thing doesn't run at all well! Exactly! Look at the Hornby Mag review of the 5 BEL " a superb job". I think I'll wait for some Forum feedback as the magazine states "developed along similar lines to Hornby's 4 VEP but it has some important characteristics which set it apart and ahead of the VEP in terms of performance" going on "Firstly the 5 coach set is particularly free running" I don't recall them mentioning that as an issue in the VEP review . Clearly the reference means they are aware it was an issue. So if they ommitted that from the VEP review are there any ommissions that we need to know about from the BEL review............ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dilbert Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 The bottom line for me is that if it runs well and looks right I will probably buy it, accepting that there may be some errors or compromises along the way. But I would like the people who are paid to review models (and whose services I pay for through magazine subscriptions)... You sound hacked off, but I don't see why there should be a difference between a mag or product (regardless of interest)... dilbert Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mel_H Posted February 13, 2012 Share Posted February 13, 2012 I'm neither in one camp, nor the other, and only want to see a thriving industry. Bachmann isn't perfect - take the massive motor in the 150 - and its over-heavy ribbing on its Mk1 coaches. I suspect that if they offered a version with re-tooled roofs then a number of modellers would 'upgrade' (maybe they could offer is as spares?). Hornby's strong reluctance (refusal?) to do special editions means there are fewer 'niche' livery choices, sometimes. Meanwhile its choice of satin paint finishes doesn't sit too well on some locos - especially its choice of shade of cream for its otherwise excellent Pullmans, or its maroon/red LMS/LMR locos. However, as the pages of Railway Modelller have demonstrated over the years, most modellers are happy with out-of-the-box RTR products, and those who want more (e.g. on this forum) tend to be in the minority, but can always be won over by something really tasty. I suspect that Bachmann are closer to their customers in understanding the demand for 'popular' liveries. It would be great to find out what makes both parties really tick - but commercial sensitivity means they will never come clean. Don't forget that Hornby has recognised that the 'train set' market, especially for younger modellers (we were all one of these once) is strong, and its 'Railroad' range is to be applauded. And, for innovation, don't forget its entry into the resin market, ahead of Bachmann. Bachmann seems more fleet of foot, but it is a smaller company which isn't quoted on the stock exchange and has shorter decision-making chains. Hornby is much bigger. Finally, on the subject of finances, wait until the respective annual reports are filed at Companies House for a truer picture. That's my ten-pen'orth! Mel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
darren01 Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 HI I read the blurb in the mags on new loco, but take it with a pinch of salt, Here is where i look on what you are saying about this model. As it is here is where the real facts come out about what's it like ,how it runs ,is it good value. The mags are never going to give a bad revaue of a model , it's their bead and butter. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
birdseyecircus Posted February 15, 2012 Share Posted February 15, 2012 The mags are never going to give a bad revaue of a model , it's their bead and butter. Try telling that to Rail Express! It seems Bachmann gave em a hard time over the first reviews for their 37. Paul Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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