LOCOS REVERSING COACHES INTO PLATFORMS

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

Just a query prompted by seeing a photo on the Railscot website of a train loco revesring coaches into

platform at Inverness station. (yes I know that there they sometimes had to!). If the carriage sidings were very near to a mainline terminus,just say beyond a road overbridge or short tunnel, was it normal practice for a train loco or station pilot to reverse empty stock into platform or did they have to be taken in with a loco at front , which would then have to await that train's departure, even if the carriage sidings were a few hundred yards away. Assuming of course no run round facilities. Many thanks for your thoughts.

[Coldgunner]

gah caps!

 

I was always had the idea that the shunter/pilot would manouver the carriages into the platform, withdraw and then the other loco would come from shed and back onto it.

[keefer]

i remember when on holiday to scarborough in the mid-80s, the train would arrive, 08 pilot loco drew the coaches out (to where i'm not sure) thus releasing the train loco. the 08 would propel the train back into the platform, detach and leave, then the train loco would come back to join the front of the train for departure.

 

ISTR dundee/aberdeen trains at edinburgh waverley would arrive at the platform, loco is detached, another pops on the (now front) to take the next service/empty stock out. loco that brought the train in would then be released and would sit in a centre road to await the next inbound service

 

at glasgow queen st., i believe that all LH trains had to have the loco on the front due to the severe gradient into/out of the station. the released loco at the platform end would then often bank the train out of the station

[Derekl]

Way back, when I used to commute from Brighton - late 70's, I think, BR ran a Brighton - Manchester service - 47 hauled Mk 2's (I think), leaving Brighton at around 09:15. The train was propelled into the platform by the train engine. One morning I was on the Brighton - Victoria fast, waiting to leave as the Manchester was propelling in. Almighty bang! as the train hit the bufferstops. Small misjudgment on the part of the 47 driver, I suspect - possible that the train had been strengthened that day.

 

Thereafter the train was hauled in by the Brighton 09, the 47 being coupled up after the train was in the platform.

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

Thanks for quick reply chaps, what I was really getting at was if I could prototypically back trains into platform then have train engine depart with them, since I don't have run round loops and loco at front would take up valuable space, plus uncoupling. I was really looking for prototypical excuse to do this. Inicidentally my layout is based loosely on Glasgow Buchanan St. which had carriage sidings adjacent to station platforms. I don't have room for those but wondered if I could imagine them the other side of short tunnel ( to fiddleyard) and get away with shunting (i.e. backing ) train into platform. Thanks very much for replies guys.

[Kenton]

Happened all the time at Dorchester South. It was the only way up trains could enter the station. If you were not aware of the manouvre it could be most disconcerting as the train used to sail on past at quite a pace and go a considerable way past the station before reversing in to the platform.

 

Of course they have stopped that now with the new station platform.

 

There is a thread on here (or the old version) somewhere, giving many other examples of similar reversing moves with passengers on the main line.

[Ed] and it had carriage sidings adjacent as well!

[chrisf]

I'm not sure that the Railway Inspectorate would have gone a bundle on propelling through a tunnel! Backing coaches into a platform did happen: some departures from Paddington in the 1950s were booked to do it. I think you will find that using a pilot loco to draw the stock in was more common but to every rule there is an exception.

 

Chris

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

Thanks again for replies guys, I take it that it did happen often enough for me to feasibly do it with some reality, thanks again

[TheSignalEngineer]

When we used to go to Ilfracombe around 1960 there was no crossover in line to the east face of the platform. The carriage sidings were to the west side of the platforms. I remember the Wolverhampton train being drawn out of the sidings then reversing into the platform for loading. It was usually double headed by an N class 2-6-0 and a Churchward Mogul as far as Barnstaple Junction.

[scotcent]

Thanks for quick reply chaps, what I was really getting at was if I could prototypically back trains into platform then have train engine depart with them, since I don't have run round loops and loco at front would take up valuable space, plus uncoupling. I was really looking for prototypical excuse to do this. Inicidentally my layout is based loosely on Glasgow Buchanan St. which had carriage sidings adjacent to station platforms. I don't have room for those but wondered if I could imagine them the other side of short tunnel ( to fiddleyard) and get away with shunting (i.e. backing ) train into platform. Thanks very much for replies guys.

 

At Buchanan St trains were rarely backed in by the train engine, but were usually backed in by the pilot. Most departures from there were long distance trains, only the occasional Coatbridge / Hamilton local would be brought in by the train engine.

 

At Central most trains were locals and as far as possible incoming trains went straight out again, releasing the loco for its next working. There was an engine siding facing platforms 7 and 8 to facilitate this, primarily on Cathcart circle trains. Other trains would be reversed in to the station by the train engine from the sidings across the river (and pushed out again the same way). I used to catch the 4.5 pm outer circle, and this slowly came down platform 10, with the guard slowly waving his lamp up and down. When he stopped the train stopped.. Mind you, most of us had climbed on well up the platform! In thick fog this couldn't be done because the guard was invisible from the loco, causing much delay, as all trains had to be pulled in by a pilot engine which was then trapped at the buffers. Where the stock for long distance trains came from further afield, the pilot loco would change ends on the Clyde bridge.

 

At Queen St, of course, all steam trains were banked up the incline, so every departing train had a pilot loco at the buffer stops, sometimes for quite long periods; these locos, of course, had brought the stock down from Cowlairs.

 

Allan F

[edcayton]

I think I know what you are getting at, but surely all arriving trains will effectively have one coach-worth of platform taken up by the loco, unless your arrival platform(s) is longer tha the departure one?

 

Ed

[JOHNMCDRAGON]

Hi Scotcent, yes that's what I was getting at, the empty coaching stock being backed in, regardless of whether train engine or pilot, so it did happen at Buchanan St,that's what I really wanted to know.

Also I did consider the Queen St. scenario with banking engines but again that's a bit complicated even with DCC and also requires more loco stock. Thanks again everyone.

[RJS1977]

We do this whenever we have a steam loco at Wallingford:

 

Steam hauled passenger train arrives at Wallingford.

Class 08 pulls the coaches clear of station limits towards Cholsey.

Steam loco runs towards Cholsey, stops short of the coaches then reverses into a siding.

Class 08 propels coaches into the platform then runs up the line.

Steam loco takes its place on the head of the train, and Class 08 goes into the siding.

Passenger train departs.

 

Of course the important thing is that there are no passengers on board while propelling....

 

When we had 3440 on the line a few years back (too long for Cholsey loco release), we did a convoluted shunt-release there involving the other 2 08s, in such a way that there were no propelling moves so passengers could stay on board.

 

Of course, when we only have 08s running, we just swap locos at Wallingford.

[Gwiwer]

Operating practice and procedure varies with location.

 

At those places where it is permitted for a locomotive to propel a train towards the buffers the train must have a shunter (or other competent person) at the leading end able to operate the emergency brake AIUI. This is usually defined as being able to activate the emergency handle or communication cord and usually in the doorway nearest to the leading end of the train. Propelling moves must be made at walking speed and the shunter responsible must be able to indicate to the driver when to stop in good time for the brakes to be applied. Striking the buffers (as mentioned in the incident at Brighton) was and is rare because every reasonable step is taken to ensure safety.

 

Hand signals to the driver from a person on the platform are also used to indicate proximity to the stopping point and when to stop (two arms raised vertically above the head).

 

It is not normally permitted to propel stock down a significant incline towards buffers such as at Glasgow Queen Street (though I believe it was permitted to shunt stock within station limits there and drawing forward into the tunnel to clear the points) on the grounds of safety; the locomotive at the station end acts as insurance against runaways in such cases.

 

So you would have seen trains shunted into both sides of Inverness station with the loco at the "country" end and indeed there were trains timetabled via the Rose Street Curve (the station avoiding line) which ran past the station, stopped at the home signal and then were propelled with passengers aboard into the station. The last up Kyle and Far North trains were so worked for some years as was the last arrival from Aberdeen. I believe the reason was to turn the stock and for route-knowledge purposes.

 

The Night Riviera does indeed enter Penzance from Long Rock reverse-formation but at Paddington the stock is brought in by the class 57 loco which has worked up the previous night and remained attached to the train all day. This loco is detached and returns light engine to Old Oak after departure of the train and is used as the shunt-release loco for the next morning's arrival and train engine for that night's down.

 

Shunting the stock into a dead-end road used to be quite commonplace as it did not tie up a locomotive and crew for extended times. This method was also quite common for parcel vans which might be positioned by a station pilot or train engine and often into a short dock as well. Back to Penzance and the TPO was often propelled in by the train engine even in the days when a station pilot existed as the shunter duty had ended by that time of the evening.

[Bob Reid]

Buchanan Street was in an entirely different situation to Central and Queen Street though - it was the only one of those three with the carriage sidings adjacent to and alongside the platforms - as I'm sure you know Scotcent - where Buchanan House was built. Incoming stock was hauled out of the station, releasing the train loco to run up to St.Rollox, and was reversed into the dead end (carriage) platform roads and for the next working, hauled back out again and propelled back into the departure platform, as you say by one of the pilots, there's no reason that it might not have by the train locomotive - no need of course for a loco at the head, unless of course any of the workings (and I can't remember if any did) require banking up the 1 in 60 past St.Rollox station!

[Graham R]

... So you would have seen trains shunted into both sides of Inverness station with the loco at the "country" end and indeed there were trains timetabled via the Rose Street Curve (the station avoiding line) which ran past the station, stopped at the home signal and then were propelled with passengers aboard into the station. The last up Kyle and Far North trains were so worked for some years as was the last arrival from Aberdeen. I believe the reason was to turn the stock and for route-knowledge purposes.

 

I believe the reason was simpler - Inverness station is a "Y" shape and passengers connecting from the Further North section to the South or Aberdeen trains, or vice-versa, faced a long walk down the length of one platform and back up the other - so it was regular practice, dating from HR days, to back connecting trains into an adjacent platform so passengers could just walk across and into their carriage. When the train wasn't timed to connect, or when no platform was available (or, I assume - maybe wrongly - in fog or falling snow), trains didn't reverse.

 

At the North (Rose Street) end, everything was under the control of one signalman so propelling was relatively simple. At the South, the signalmen at Welsh's Bridge and Loco had to manage the movement, and the sectional appendix authorised propellling of "Passenger trains from the North and West with South and/or East connections". The guard had to stand by his automatic brake and keep a sharp eye out for hand-signals from platform staff, and tail traffic could not exceed six 4-wheeled vans. Propelling trains didn't have to come to a stand at the calling-on signal into the South platforms though, they could keep on moving (maximum 20mph and 15mph into platforms).

 

I haven't travelled by train north of Inverness for years ... Can someone advise if reversing is still the practice there today ?

[Coach bogie]

LLandudno station had carriage sidings just beyond the station and signal box. On an ADEX from Manchester in the early 80's, the train loco (class 40) pushed the stock from the sidings into the main platform. The guard was hanging out of the last coach giving hand signals to the driver.Helped having a slight curve in the driver's favour from the sidings.

 

Mike Wiltshire

[jwealleans]

Chris Turnbull may be able to give chapter and verse if he sees this but the branch train from Framlingham had to run through Wickham Market bang road and then reverse into the bay.

 

It sometimes ran as a mixed train so there may have been all manner of special instructions covering it.

[The Stationmaster]

was it about the late 90s that the Rule Book was altered to not let a "shunt engine" follow the train it had shunted into the station along the platform as far as the bright red light at the platform end?

No - 'following down' was always by special/local Instruction, the Rule Book simply told you how to do it (says he without checking).

 

As far as propelling into platforms is concerned the situation is basically simple -

1. In semaphore signalling/Absolute Block working propelling is permitted in Station Limits (n.b. Station Limits is a piece of operating terminology - it has nothing at all to do with the presence, or otherwise of a station).

2. In the late 1960s or thereabouts artificially created (by reference to signal numbers etc) 'Station Limits' were used at stations with colour light signalling/Track Circuit Block working.

3. The latter was done away with around the early 1970s and instead propelling authorities were introduced to show those places where propelling was permitted - that remains the case today although 'propelling' became a dirty word in the late 1980s/early '90s and was very much constrained wherever it could be constrained.

 

4. Propelling through an Anbsolte Block section or overa distance on colour light signalled lines has always been prohibited but would be allowed by special authority if it was considered necessary and it could be carried out safely. I wouldn't for instance authorise propelling anywhere where the Diver isunsighted from the Shunter travelling in the leading vehicle unless suitable equipment (e.g. special back-to-back radios) are available although again that tightened considerably in the very late 1980s.

 

Some quite long distance propelling has been authorised over the years for setting coaching stock back into platforms but always on a local and carefully considered basis - for instance in the 1967 Paddington layout propelling moves were authorised from Paddington Sidings which meant the loco started three quarters of a mile from the platform stop blocks and that was done entirely on handsignals from the Shunter riding in the leading vehicle.

[edcayton]

There were also several situations where the pilot that had pulled the stock into the platform was used to bank the train out of the station. I don't know if it was coupled or not for this manoeuvre.

 

Ed

[The Stationmaster]

There were also several situations where the pilot that had pulled the stock into the platform was used to bank the train out of the station. I don't know if it was coupled or not for this manoeuvre.

Ed

 

It varied although usually the practice was not to couple - unless some sort of device was in use for uncoupling on the move (as at Glasgow Queen St up Cowlairs Bank)

[caradoc]

At Glasgow Central, until Class 156 took over, the Carlisle/Glasgow via Dumfries trains propelled out of the station to the Centre Sidings where the loco ran round and propelled the stock back into the platform. WCML services on the other hand simply re-engined, the logic presumably being that as they were far more frequent there wasn't such a great waste of loco time while waiting for their next work.

[Katier]

Happens every Friday at Scarbourough during the summer.. The Flyer propels it's own train out of the platform, some distance, runs onto the turntable then when it's time to leave propels the carriages back into the platform, picks up it's passengers and departs.

[Armchair Modeller]

And then there is gravity shunting....................

[flyingsignalman]

I'm not sure that the Railway Inspectorate would have gone a bundle on propelling through a tunnel! Backing coaches into a platform did happen: some departures from Paddington in the 1950s were booked to do it. I think you will find that using a pilot loco to draw the stock in was more common but to every rule there is an exception.

 

Chris

 

From Green Lane Junction to Birkenhead Woodside the propelling of empty vehicles only was authorised, a distance of just under a mile of which nearly 600yards were in tunnel. The ECS had to come to a dead stand before going into the tunnel at Birkenhead Town station. The carriage sidings were at Grange Lane (between Town station and Green Lane Junction).

 

There is a photo in the late Robert Adley's book "In Search Of Steam 1962 - 68" on p132/133 which shows such a move being carried out.

The caption to the photo is wrong as it states that "Fairburn 2-6-4t No.42156 pounds up the grade and past the motive power depot, with empty stock from Birkenhead Woodside on 9 January 1966." as the ground signal by the first coach is off meaning that this is in fact a propelling move to Woodside.