Guest jim s-w Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 you might like this Cheers Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger440 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Used to happen quite a lot at marylebone in the late 80's on loco hauled DMU substitutions. With no other locos around, didn't leave a lot of options. Used to propel out of the station to the depot, run round and then propel back. Though as alluded to, it can go wrong. Came in one morning from the sudburys only to arrive at the signal at the exit from the tunnel to see a mk1 over at 45 degrees having run through the trap points ending foul of the main line! I bailed and walked. The rest of the punters had a long wait! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium keefer Posted February 3, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 3, 2012 thanks for that jim, i forgot i'd watched it previously. i think this was filmed the week after i came into scarborough on holiday. glasgow-scarborough via edinburgh waverley (former sub platforms 21/22?) hammering down the ECML in a rake of corridor mk1s! have got photos somewhere inc. the 03 and the 08 repeated the journey 2 yrs later on 'live aid' day, trying to listen to radio 1 on a crappy old radio in the vestibule of a mk1 SK doing line speed - needless to say i couldn't hear much of the 'global jukebox'! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roger440 Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thats fantastic Jim. Lots of stuff in that that simply wouldnt happen any more! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bon Accord Posted February 3, 2012 Share Posted February 3, 2012 Thats fantastic Jim. Lots of stuff in that that simply wouldnt happen any more! Oh how very very true! This is progress - apparently. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hi! During the 80's I was shunter at Inverness. It was common practice for trains from the north to arrive in the 'south platforms' with the train by passing the station via the Rose St Curve and propelling from Welshs Bridge back into the platforms,. This was especially useful for us since when the train engine had gone away for fuel we'd come on top and transfer any BGs/GUVs to the front of a souhbound train (sometimes that trains loco would be available to do it for us) and we could then take the stock away to the Carriage Cleaning Depot (CCD) in a simple haul and propel move. The 0110 ex Perth with sleepers from Glasgow and Edinburgh would arrive on the Rose St Curve and we'd remove the various vans for the north, west and local traffic to platforms 6 and 7 with the train engine, which would then go to the fuel bay, then collect the passenger portion and deposit it in platform 5. Once all the vans had been emptied, we'd collect the vans from platform 5, run round in the loop (leaving them there), then collect the pasenger stock from platform 5, go on top of the vans (so the 08 is in the middle!), push/pull this lot onto the Ness Viaduct, leaving the sleepers in the loop, take the vans to the Harbour Road beside the new Carriage Maintce Depot (CMD) and come back light to the north loop to collect the stock and take it to the CCD - Yes the 08 did struggle with the Amps WELL into the red as the asthmatic vacuum exauster released the brakes!! As trains arrived through the day with extra BGs and GUVs we took them and added them to the 'Emcar' in the Harbour Road which would leave just after midnight and eventually get to Manchester Red Bank adding more vans as it went - these were in a massive diagram that saw them back in Inverness on a diagram some time later! Trains from the south normally came into the south platforms and either got a fresh loco to return, or as became the norm and we lost the luxury of spare locois and stock we had to release the loco for it to rejoin its stock. During the resignalling, the Clansman (and others) arrived, propelling into plats 5,6 and 7, If we had spare staff and more importantly a Dual Brake (DB) shunt loco we'd couple onto the rear when the train arrived at Rose Street and haul it back into the platform, then once the train loco was uncoupled and it was emptied, we'd propel it out of the platform and take it round to the CCD. Provided it was convenient (and we'd bribed the secondman with the promise of uncoupling it for him!!) we'd use the train engine if poss to take south facing stock to the CCD. Bribery was usually needed as the track in the CCD was usually sodden and covered in varoius waste horridness that for some reason scared them off - bless!! An exception was the 1400ish arrival ex Kyle which was booked to be taken round by the train loco AND uncoupled by the secondman!! This unfortunately ended when the driver forgot to look back for our handsignal to slow down and stop the loco where we stood, resulting in the rearmost TSO extending road 6 by about 20', with one bogie on the buffers rails and the other on the siding itself and a large expanse of floor inbetween!! A similar moment occured propelling the Royal Scotsman into platform 3, not causing too much damage other than a bent buffer on the obsevation car..... Cheers G Cheers G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
edcayton Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Thanks for that G, it's nice to hear it "from the horse's mouth". Ed Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Catkins Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 I haven't travelled by train north of Inverness for years ... Can someone advise if reversing is still the practice there today ? I don't think that there is as much call for propelling moves at Inverness as most of the services are multiple units now, however I don't know about the Sleepers, and the last time I was on a charter up there, we arrived in platform 2 (Duoble headed 37's +11 mark 1's) the following couple of mornings the train propelled out from platform 2 to Millburn, and then made it's way up to the north. In the evening, the train would be hauled south to Millburn, and then propelled into platform 2. The only time the train was hauled south out of Inverness was on the last day, when we were heading home. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Hi! Its nearly all tupperware trains here now, so the driver just changes ends and goes back into his platform. theres one booked move for this in the current timetable, the 2H86/1715 Kyle - Elgin which goes round to platform 2. The sleepers are booked into platform 1 and are released by one of the 08s, taken through the wash and propelled back into the CMD. The train engine takes them back up for the evening departure. So its only charters to the north/west that now propel in/out of Inverness. Cheers G Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
flyingsignalman Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 Snip... An exception was the 1400ish arrival ex Kyle which was booked to be taken round by the train loco AND uncoupled by the secondman!! This unfortunately ended when the driver forgot to look back for our handsignal to slow down and stop the loco where we stood, resulting in the rearmost TSO extending road 6 by about 20', with one bogie on the buffers rails and the other on the siding itself and a large expanse of floor inbetween!! A similar moment occured propelling the Royal Scotsman into platform 3, not causing too much damage other than a bent buffer on the obsevation car..... Cheers G Cheers G Slightly off topic but the above reminds me of a tale told to me by a former shunter who worked at Grange Lane Carriage Sidings at Birkenhead. On bank holidays ECS trains would be sent from the North Wales coast to make room in the sidings there for all the excursion trains going that way (presumably they went to other locations as well). One set of coaches (he called it the club train) would not fit in clear in the longest siding by about half a coach length. The regular shunters knew this and would split off the last coach to another siding. One time a relief shunter was on duty and he kept backing the train in until it was fully inside. The fishplates must have been weak as the stop block had been pushed back by the required amount! The PWay men arrived to pull the block back to the siding but were convinced by the shunters to fill the gap instead, extending the siding by about half 60' rail length. Henceforth, the club train did not need the last coach splitting off. Quite how they convinced the PWay men wasn't explained to me...... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
AMJ Posted February 4, 2012 Share Posted February 4, 2012 In the 1988 I did a Far North service at Inverness that did the line past the shed and then back into the main part of the station. I was under the impression that this was for coaches that formed trains to other parts of the network. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 They used to propel from the down side carriage sidings at Euston into the platforms, again some considerable distance. That came to an untimely halt one day when a new shunter was in the back brake, nearest the stops, and was told to apply the brake when t eh train was near the stops. The driver, wondering what had gone wrong, went to the back of the train, where said shunter had gone a bit purple in the face explaining that "de dam breyak won't screw on no more maan". He had tried to stop the train on the hand brake, not the air brake!! Lukcily no damage was done! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
retbsignalman Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hi! Trust me....the stock used on the far north and west was only fit for the low speeds of those lines, they'd have fallen to bits even on the Aberdeen run!!! The only vehicles that would have gone further were the extra BGs on either the 2330 to Glasgow or the Emcar Cheers G In the 1988 I did a Far North service at Inverness that did the line past the shed and then back into the main part of the station. I was under the impression that this was for coaches that formed trains to other parts of the network. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Colin_McLeod Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 5, 2012 Happened every day in the old Great Victoria Street station in Belfast. the CIE loco hauled "Enterprise" from Dublin would arrive in Platform 2. After passengers got out, the train loco reversed the train out of the platform, ran round the train at some point beyond the platforms, then reversed the train back into the platform. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 5, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 5, 2012 After the class 120 dmus came off the Aberdeen - Inverness sported some pretty ropey Mk1 and early Mk2 stock. I recall well travelling in a declassified first with interior panels loose, rust showing through the external paintwork, joints visible in the panelwork and even damp mould on the (gold and black) first class seating! I can't find the notes quickly but it might have been Sc17007. Some of these coaches had been withdrawn for a while (and no doubt lay dumped in the open somewhere) but were revived due to the late commissioning of the 156s in the north. The IS allocation was indeed largely kept separate between Kyle / Far North and anything heading south but it was far from good all round. A visit to the CMD between arriving off the Kyle (reversing into platform 2) and the departure of the Edinburgh - Glasgow sleeper (from platform 3) found some extremely poorly looking stock which judging from the flashes had been dismissed from NSE and sent as far away as Mr. Green's Railway could send it. I am perfectly happy to buy the logic for the Rose Street Shuffles being to transfer vans between north and south sides. Back in the day the Far North would often convey at least one BG and occasionally two. With the split and join at Georgemas as it then was the van which left at the north end of the train ended up in the middle of the formation on the way back often as not. When I cycled John O'Groats - Lands End with around 120 others we had a chartered BG through from Euston to Wick with the bikes in addition to the normal load and that train came back from Georgemas formed with TWO BGs in the middle with two passenger coaches either side! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 I think the coaches were propelled into the platform from the sidings at blackpool north but only due to some dodgy memory I have! If anyone can elaborate further this could be more useful to you! mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jim Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hi, A friend of mine explained whilst shunting the "Night Ferry" at Dover Western Docks (DWD), the shunter used special brake equipment attached to the vacuum pipe on the rearmost vehicle and stood in the open connecting door way ready to operate a brake valve. This move was done with passengers on. I have seen a photo of this somewhere. Another move was after a loco halled train arrived in DWD and emptied of passengers, it then pushed back into the Dover Town Yard, ran round then pushed back into the station. My friend explained that due to the curves the shunter was out of site for most of the move. The crews knew where to stop for the length of train. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JOHNMCDRAGON Posted February 5, 2012 Author Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hi folks, as the original poster I just wanted to say thanks again for the usual informed and extensive knowledge of RMweb users. My original post concerned just the backing in of empty coaching stock to platforms from the carriage sidings. On my layout which is based on Buchanan St the carriage sidings were adjacent to the platforms and I knew stock would be shunted out of these and then propelled into the platforms under shunting in station limits rules on the prototype. However on my layout I don't have enough room for 6-8 carriage sidings at the side (who does?) and so I wanted to reverse them in from the fiddle yard,through the backscene short tunnel and imagine that the carriage sidings were just the other side of said tunnel. Having read the replies I see that this was obviously done over quite long distances at Euston, Paddington, Blackpool etc, so if it's alright for them to do it then it's alright for me. The old story , just wanted to know I was following prototype practice and not just ' playing trains'. Thanks again all. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddys-blues Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 you might like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JOcpqHB7C1k Cheers Jim Excellent Post Jim, trying hanging out of today's passenger stock and videoing the journey ???? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
roythebus Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 Hi, A friend of mine explained whilst shunting the "Night Ferry" at Dover Western Docks (DWD), the shunter used special brake equipment attached to the vacuum pipe on the rearmost vehicle and stood in the open connecting door way ready to operate a brake valve. This move was done with passengers on. I have seen a photo of this somewhere. Another move was after a loco halled train arrived in DWD and emptied of passengers, it then pushed back into the Dover Town Yard, ran round then pushed back into the station. My friend explained that due to the curves the shunter was out of site for most of the move. The crews knew where to stop for the length of train. Jim ISTR the Night Ferry stock was air-braked. Similar equipment was used on the DB. I witnessed coaches with passengers on being shunted around Hamburg Hbf at midday a few years back, these being through coaches from other services! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Gwiwer Posted February 6, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted February 6, 2012 just wanted to know I was following prototype practice and not just ' playing trains'. Rule 1 applies. It's your layout and what you say goes. The move you suggest is perfectly prototypical however. As for "playing trains" the real operators seem to be doing just that at times so you're in good company! shunting the "Night Ferry" at Dover Western Docks (DWD) This was a slightly different situation to stock being propelled towards the buffer stops of a terminus platform. As it was also done during the night it was unreasonable to wake and disembark sleeping car passengers. The train was divided (usually into two halves) upon arrival at Dover Western Docks with part shunted to the adjacent track. One class 09 on each half then propelled the trains aboard the waiting ferry side-by-side and at dead-slow speed so as not to upset the vessel's trim or the connection to the link span. The train would have ended in the water if it had gone too far or at very least caused massive damage to the vessel rendering it unseaworthy so loadings were very carefully supervised. The same process applied to drawing the stock off the boat and also to freights on the train ferry which had four tracks. Latterly a pair of 33/2 locos with slow-speed control (which was originally fitted IIRC for working the Mountfield gypsum trains) were used in place of the 09s on this job. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fat Controller Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 Rule 1 applies. It's your layout and what you say goes. The move you suggest is perfectly prototypical however. As for "playing trains" the real operators seem to be doing just that at times so you're in good company! This was a slightly different situation to stock being propelled towards the buffer stops of a terminus platform. As it was also done during the night it was unreasonable to wake and disembark sleeping car passengers. The train was divided (usually into two halves) upon arrival at Dover Western Docks with part shunted to the adjacent track. One class 09 on each half then propelled the trains aboard the waiting ferry side-by-side and at dead-slow speed so as not to upset the vessel's trim or the connection to the link span. The train would have ended in the water if it had gone too far or at very least caused massive damage to the vessel rendering it unseaworthy so loadings were very carefully supervised. The same process applied to drawing the stock off the boat and also to freights on the train ferry which had four tracks. Latterly a pair of 33/2 locos with slow-speed control (which was originally fitted IIRC for working the Mountfield gypsum trains) were used in place of the 09s on this job. The 33/2s didn't arrive at Dover until the introduction of the Nord-Pas-de-Calais ferry in 1987, long after the end of the Night Ferry. The new ship was too big for the old 'floating dock', and so a new link-span was built on the seaward side of Dover Western Dock- as this was tidal, the angle of the link-span could be very steep, and thus something more powerful than an 09 was needed. As the new boat was bigger, the weights hauled were greater as well. All history now, alas- I used to enjoy my saunter along the top of the breakwater at Dover after a long day in the classroom at Farthingloe; I was being trained for Eurotunnel. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lonesome_whistle Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I witnessed coaches with passengers on being shunted around Hamburg Hbf at midday a few years back, these being through coaches from other services! The Fort William and Inverness portions of the up Highland sleepers are propelled at Edinburgh Waverley with sleeping (well, they're mostly sleeping prior to the coaches being coupled!) punters on board six nights a week. Incidentally (returning to the OP), the stock for the Aberdeen portion is drawn out of Clayhills carriage sidings by the train engine and then propelled into the station from Ferryhill usually around 1930-2000 every evening (Saturdays excepted). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted February 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2012 ISTR the Night Ferry stock was air-braked. Similar equipment was used on the DB. I witnessed coaches with passengers on being shunted around Hamburg Hbf at midday a few years back, these being through coaches from other services! A 'Shunter's BrakeValve' (or whatever it is officially called) is a standard thing on railways with full UIC compatible vehicles and has been used in a number of European mainland countries over the years (Switzerland is another example) and it is a relatively easy thing to cater for off the Train Pipe. Interestingly I believe there have been dalliances with the idea this side of the Channel but the only practical development of it that I'm aware of was for the 'Nightstar' international sleeper stock where it would have been used to allow Shunter control of the planned regular propelling move between Swansea High St station and Swansea Loop West Jcn (a distance of just under 1.25 miles). Definitely a better idea than reaching out of a drop light and stretching up for the butterfly valve of the passenger communication gear . Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold ChrisN Posted February 6, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted February 6, 2012 I assume in the days of steam when there were bay platforms for branch line trains, with no run round facilities, that either the train arrived at the bay and then had tp propell it out, run round it and propell it back, or else arrive at a main platform and perform a similar manouver to start from the bay again? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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