EBay madness

[SteveyDee68]

I’ve messaged a few eBay sellers regarding their controllers for sale, asking about PAT testing and certification.

 

One has responded, “Yes, all tested and working” which did not answer my very specific question and carefully worded question.

 

I’ve responded asking “PAT Certified?”

 

Their answer determines whether I draw the attention of trading standards to their auctions (as they have many similar items for sale)

 

My gut instinct from their first response is (a) they have not PAT tested/certified (b) I will get a similarly non-committed type of answer and (c) Trading Standards will be informed of unsafe selling practices AND deliberate misinformation.

 

Disgusted of Farnborough (or similar!)

 

Steve S

 

 

[Hroth]

5 hours ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Missread as: "... the vendor petted it and went flying across the room."! 😎

 

That would probably count as "Heavy Patting"...

By Jove, she's got a bit of a punch!!!

🤪

 

[kevinlms]

8 hours ago, SteveyDee68 said:

There’s far too many transformers / controllers for sale on eBay - and in model shops, too - that have not been PAT tested/certified by a qualified electrician. I’m certain that is because paying for testing probably negates any profit to be had in selling them (once purchase price and tax/VAT are taken into consideration for businesses especially) but selling untested and therefore possibly faulty electrical equipment that could cause serious injury and possibly death has both moral and legal implications.

 

There’s several older controllers up in the loft; I think I may need to retain either the H&M “Clipper” or the “Variable Transformer” for my dad’s O gauge locos (I don’t think my far more modern GaugeMaster Combi will have the guts to power their motors) but once that is sorted, the remainder will be de-plugged and taken for recycling.

 

On eBay right now, a “Clipper” is up for £9.99 (“was working”) and a “Variable Transformer” for £7.50 (£6.50 p&p - well, they are heavy!) … see what I mean about not worth paying for PAT testing (except, of course, to ensure that you, the seller, don’t electrocute anyone!)

 

Steve S

If you are or intending to sell them, then if you have enough, it is worthwhile doing the course & purchasing the required tools and doing the PAT tests yourself.

It gets around the problem, of paying someone to do the job and I've certainly never seen anywhere, where you MUST be a qualified electrician to do the job.

[griffgriff]

14 minutes ago, kevinlms said:

If you are or intending to sell them, then if you have enough, it is worthwhile doing the course & purchasing the required tools and doing the PAT tests yourself.

It gets around the problem, of paying someone to do the job and I've certainly never seen anywhere, where you MUST be a qualified electrician to do the job.

You don’t need to be a qualified electrician but, as you say, you need to be qualified to PAT test and you need to have the kit. You probably need some kind of indemnity too. There seems to be a range of prices for all of these but it’s still going to cost a few hundred quid to get going 

 

Griff

[Sjcm]

It's a difficult one with controllers really. I have thought of having a go myself as they are simple things and once you change out any capacitors,  resisters, failed wiring etc.. it should be safe, but I wouldn't trust myself to sell them even if I did the PAT course. Seems to be a grey area selling them, and I think I have sold a working one in the past, but with the proviso that they needed to be checked by a qualified electrician. Also, what is the cut-off for selling them? 5 years old? 10 years? If they have a CE mark?  Plenty of "modern" electrics from the mid90's now have failing capacitors..

Edited November 26, 2023 by Sjcm

[Paul H Vigor]

27 minutes ago, Sjcm said:

It's a difficult one with controllers really. I have thought of having a go myself as they are simple things and once you change out any capacitors,  resisters, failed wiring etc.. it should be safe, but I wouldn't trust myself to sell them even if I did the PAT course. Seems to be a grey area selling them, and I think I have sold a working one in the past, but with the proviso that they needed to be checked by a qualified electrician. Also, what is the cut-off for selling them? 5 years old? 10 years? If they have a CE mark?  Plenty of "modern" electrics from the mid90's now have failing capacitors..

Something might be missed and someone could be electrocuted? If you'd signed it off, you'd be liable?

[Sjcm]

4 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Something might be missed and someone could be electrocuted? If you'd signed it off, you'd be liable?

Yes, but isn't that the same with all electrical items? I have a working modern-ish Hornby r8250 controller. It's no use to me so I could sell it, but it's at least 10 years old so technically if I sold it and it blew up I would be liable presumably and I've seen one of those modern plug powerpacks go bang. On the plus side the components should be ok age-wise, on the other hand it's your typical made for pennies tat. The odds are better than a h & m duette  but I use one of them everyday😂 A while back I fed an old  controller through about about 3 safety cut-offs and left it for 8 hours and it worked fine, but I certainly wouldn't sell it. To be honest, the whole metal case aspect of the older controllers makes me twitchy.

[Paul H Vigor]

15 minutes ago, Sjcm said:

Yes, but isn't that the same with all electrical items? I have a working modern-ish Hornby r8250 controller. It's no use to me so I could sell it, but it's at least 10 years old so technically if I sold it and it blew up I would be liable presumably and I've seen one of those modern plug powerpacks go bang. On the plus side the components should be ok age-wise, on the other hand it's your typical made for pennies tat. The odds are better than a h & m duette  but I use one of them everyday😂 A while back I fed an old  controller through about about 3 safety cut-offs and left it for 8 hours and it worked fine, but I certainly wouldn't sell it. To be honest, the whole metal case aspect of the older controllers makes me twitchy.

Must admit I've never messed with electricity, and would aviod buying second hand controllers, etc. I draw a line at 12 volts! But each to their own.

[Sjcm]

1 minute ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Must admit I've never messed with electricity, and would aviod buying second hand controllers, etc. I draw a line at 12 volts! But each to their own.

Oh it was just an experiment with a controller I got in a job lot from watching people repair old electrical stuff. I'm not insane enough to buy an old 60's controller to actually use or sell - anything before the 2000's could be iffy realistically.😉 but the fact remains anything electrical 2nd hand you sell makes you liable however new it is. A friend of mine got blown across the room by a modern plug transformer which was both scary and funny at the same time.

[kevinlms]

3 hours ago, Sjcm said:

It's a difficult one with controllers really. I have thought of having a go myself as they are simple things and once you change out any capacitors,  resisters, failed wiring etc.. it should be safe, but I wouldn't trust myself to sell them even if I did the PAT course. Seems to be a grey area selling them, and I think I have sold a working one in the past, but with the proviso that they needed to be checked by a qualified electrician. Also, what is the cut-off for selling them? 5 years old? 10 years? If they have a CE mark?  Plenty of "modern" electrics from the mid90's now have failing capacitors..

If you do a PAT course, you'll find out that it's about the SAFETY of the equipment. That is there is no sign of damage to power cords, casing, safety devices such as guards are intact, no openings to poke fingers/screwdrivers in etc.

Nowhere is a requirement that the device needs to work, so that is not the responsibility or purpose of the PAT testing.

Nor is there any requirement to dismantle for inspection - you can if you wish and are qualified (electrician?) to fix it. Mind you there are other reasons, why you shouldn't be selling stuff that doesn't work!

 

The obvious thing is that if one does go down the PAT testing path, is that you NEVER sign off on any equipment that you aren't sure of. Any one who tells you that 'just sticking a tag on it' is all you need to do, is someone to keep clear of! Your name is going on the tested equipment, not theirs!

 

I had a fellow club member who asked me to test a few items and he wasn't happy that I failed one item. It had a melted (soldering iron damage IIRC) power cord, so no way was I signing off on that. Beware of insulating tape wrapped around a power cord - it could legitimately be there for the owner to identify, or it could be hiding the poor attempt of a repair!

He later gave it back to me with a replacement cord on it and I duly passed it.

 

I should point out, that I'm not a qualified electrician (I did some common parts of the course, but followed a different career path), so I know the standards mostly, but I don't have the qualifications.

[MrWolf]

Having performed plenty of PAT tests myself, I'll vouch for those comments and add that like the M.O.T. test on a car, the PAT test only tells you that the equipment was deemed safe on the day of testing and it is the end user's responsibility to check for any obvious faults or damage before using the equipment and if deemed to be unsatisfactory the equipment must be immediately taken out of use and labelled as defective.

[Sjcm]

Interesting. Have to admit I thought there was more to PAT testing than a visual inspection so pretty useless for a controller on ebay. As I said earlier I use a H&M duette which must be 40+ plus years old. I use it because it seems to have more "oomph" with old motors than the modern stuff. I'm sure there is a modern equivalent but i don't fancy paying 100 pounds to find out. Funnily enough there is one on ebay atm, working but not checked and no proviso to get it checked in the listing and it's at 41 pounds, so you have to wonder would people pay 80 pounds for a tested re-conditioned one?

[Hroth]

Government advice (HSE) about Portable Appliance Testing (PAT)

https://www.hse.gov.uk/electricity/faq-portable-appliance-testing.htm

 

 

[Paul H Vigor]

1 hour ago, MrWolf said:

Having performed plenty of PAT tests myself, I'll vouch for those comments and add that like the M.O.T. test on a car, the PAT test only tells you that the equipment was deemed safe on the day of testing and it is the end user's responsibility to check for any obvious faults or damage before using the equipment and if deemed to be unsatisfactory the equipment must be immediately taken out of use and labelled as defective.

An associated question: are exhibition layouts required to be PAT tested before public display?

[PhilJ W]

5 minutes ago, Paul H Vigor said:

An associated question: are exhibition layouts required to be PAT tested before public display?

Not all venues but many venues insist on a breaker device.

[John M Upton]

I did the PAT testing course twenty or more years ago. The instructor had his Chamber of Horrors, an eye opening collection of dodgy and downright dangerous electrical appliances he had collected over the years. 

 

I found a few examples of my own over the subsequent years, best one being a standard lamp the Head of Music had smuggled in to illuminate her piano during the forthcoming Christmas concert.

 

This death trap had a plug which was missing two screws and held together with sellotape (yellowed with age, naturally, the cord had several chewed marks with live exposed inner copper wire and to cap it all, not only was the metal frame live, due to the base being lost, she had stuck it in a metal bucket of wet sand!!!

 

The light bulb was the only part of it that was safe, and I broke it...

[Michael Hodgson]

Not portable equipment, but a friend at a party told me that a shed in the middle of her garden had been demolished and removed by the previous tenant but the wire for its light was still in the ground with insulating tape round the end but she could see sparks from it when it rained, so she had put an inverted plastic bucket over it!

 

I felt I had no option but to make a special journey to trace this wire and remove it - the cable ran along the fence, across the patio in through a hole in the french window and found it wired to a 13A socket in the linge.

[Paul H Vigor]

12 minutes ago, Michael Hodgson said:

Not portable equipment, but a friend at a party told me that a shed in the middle of her garden had been demolished and removed by the previous tenant but the wire for its light was still in the ground with insulating tape round the end but she could see sparks from it when it rained, so she had put an inverted plastic bucket over it!

 

I felt I had no option but to make a special journey to trace this wire and remove it - the cable ran along the fence, across the patio in through a hole in the french window and found it wired to a 13A socket in the linge.

Shocking!

[John M Upton]

The guy wrecking perfectly useable models into "realistic scrapyard condition" has now turned his attention to US HO scale items (never seen a Santa Fe GP40 in the presence of a 1950's Austin van before, especially as I suspect in real life, huge gap between called the Atlantic ocean notwithstanding, the loco was built long after the van was scrapped!) and amongst the horrors is this sad specimen:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305265332507

 

Is it my imagination or has the coal load been crudely hacksawed out?

[Michael Hodgson]

1 hour ago, Paul H Vigor said:

Shocking!

No - I turned off the supply at the consumer unit before I pulled the wire out!

[MrWolf]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

The guy wrecking perfectly useable models into "realistic scrapyard condition" has now turned his attention to US HO scale items (never seen a Santa Fe GP40 in the presence of a 1950's Austin van before, especially as I suspect in real life, huge gap between called the Atlantic ocean notwithstanding, the loco was built long after the van was scrapped!) and amongst the horrors is this sad specimen:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305265332507

 

Is it my imagination or has the coal load been crudely hacksawed out?

 

Same sh** different loco? 

 

Is it actually one of those delprado dust catchers?

 

The cars all look like they've been burnt out rather than sitting around for years.

 

Austin did sell cars into America, certainly the Devon, Dorset and Atlantic models in the late 40s, but I think that the deal with Nash-Kelvinator in the mid fifties to sell the Metropolitan in the USA and over here would be a conflict of interests, I'd have to do a bit of digging to see if the A30/A35 van was exported stateside.

 

I can tell you from first hand knowledge that they actually rust like this:

 

 

Flickr 

 

[Hacksworth_Sidings]

1 hour ago, John M Upton said:

The guy wrecking perfectly useable models into "realistic scrapyard condition" has now turned his attention to US HO scale items (never seen a Santa Fe GP40 in the presence of a 1950's Austin van before, especially as I suspect in real life, huge gap between called the Atlantic ocean notwithstanding, the loco was built long after the van was scrapped!) and amongst the horrors is this sad specimen:

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305265332507

 

Is it my imagination or has the coal load been crudely hacksawed out?

And it’s a Rosebud by the looks of things! Would’ve been worth far more if he just left it alone!

 

Edit: I’m personally a bit mixed on Halden, on one hand he finds a decent use for those static loco models that were in every magazine store in the 2010s, you all know the ones I’m on about, on the other hand, as you said, he butchers perfectly useable locos.

 

Won’t lie, I’m honestly tempted to buy one of the Triang locos he’s done up, slap a motor into it and see if I can make it run, just for a giggle.

Edited November 26, 2023 by Hacksworth_Sidings

[Hroth]

17 minutes ago, Hacksworth_Sidings said:

And it’s a Rosebud by the looks of things! Would’ve been worth far more if he just left it alone!

 

Edit: I’m personally a bit mixed on Halden, on one hand he finds a decent use for those static loco models that were in every magazine store in the 2010s, you all know the ones I’m on about, on the other hand, as you said, he butchers perfectly useable locos.

 

Won’t lie, I’m honestly tempted to buy one of the Triang locos he’s done up, slap a motor into it and see if I can make it run, just for a giggle.

 

I recognise his scrap siding, I bought a Hornby B12 many years ago, China production but not new tooling, that had been weathered to within an inch of its life. It was in perfect working order and I used it to represent a loco that was still in service but badly maintained.

 

Looked through his other items, this is a bit of a hoot

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305282138893

 

Seeing as the Bismark shelled the Hood into oblivion, the chances of the ship looking like this are somewhat remote...

 

Edited November 26, 2023 by Hroth
More!

[Michael Hodgson]

I don't know about the Hudson, but some of his other stuff are just plastic Airfix/Kitmaster kits.

[MrWolf]

45 minutes ago, Hroth said:

 

I recognise his scrap siding, I bought a Hornby B12 many years ago, China production but not new tooling, that had been weathered to within an inch of its life. It was in perfect working order and I used it to represent a loco that was still in service but badly maintained.

 

Looked through his other items, this is a bit of a hoot

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/305282138893

 

Seeing as the Bismark shelled the Hood into oblivion, the chances of the ship looking like this are somewhat remote...

 

 

Only three survivors IIRC. I've not seen one of those models for a while. More of those monthly magazine dust collectors that generally fetch about £2 on the car boot.