Tucking Mill

[CME and Bottlewasher]

 

 

Hi jerry,

 

How are you making the walling?

 

Thanks, kindest,

 

CME

 

It's SE Finecast embossed plastic back to back with an extra layer of plasticard in between to boost the thickness and give an odd number of layers for stability. First time I've used it and I like it. For the walls I put a thin sausage of filler along the top and cut down into it whilst wet to represent the capping stones.

 

Jerry

Hi Jerry,

 

Thanks - I was wondering, a while back, if I could do similar in 7mm as I will have a fair amount of dry-stone walling to do (the layout is garage based so the walling needs to be stable), with the tops/vertical stones being irregularly cut pieces of plastikard - I like the SE sheets too as they are nicely done (and not quite as identifiable/run-of-the-mill), in fact I have a couple similar to yours but for 7mm to try the 'sandwich' technique on, yours look excellent I wonder if mine will be as convincing in 7mm - I was also going to give the a wash of plaster and pva so as to add the extra texture needed for 7mm. Im a little way off of the scenic phase, so seeing your work is a real inspiration - I have always enjoyed seeing your layouts at Bradford-on-Avon et al.

 

Thanks again.

 

Kindest,

 

CME

 

CME,

 

My method of connecting the rake of coaches together can be seen in the following blog entry : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/blog/1009/entry-13639-2fs-gwr-4-6-wheel-coaches-u4-t38-and-coupling/

 

Obviously this method as developed will only work for non-bogie coaches.  I'll have to enhance it when I do my clerestory coaches (otherwise the coupling will pull them off the rails when going round bends) :-)

 

Ian

Hi Ian,

 

Thanks. Simply and effective! Very nice! I wonder if I could do the same/similar in 7mm scale?

 

Kindest,

 

CME

[queensquare]

I think you can quite easily have the best of both worlds on the same layout Andy

Not if you have high frequency track cleaners you can't, death to a chip in milliseconds. And please theorists don't tell me it's bad for the motors. I've been using them for well over twenty years with no ill effects, as have Pendon, Copenhagen Fields, John Birkett-Smith etc.

 

Jerry

[Donw]

Not if you have high frequency track cleaners you can't, death to a chip in milliseconds. And please theorists don't tell me it's bad for the motors. I've been using them for well over twenty years with no ill effects, as have Pendon, Copenhagen Fields, John Birkett-Smith etc.

 

Jerry

 

The secret with HF cleaners is the impeadance of the motor protects it. Even coreless motors have some impeadance or they wouldn't work.

Don

[CME and Bottlewasher]

Not if you have high frequency track cleaners you can't, death to a chip in milliseconds. And please theorists don't tell me it's bad for the motors. I've been using them for well over twenty years with no ill effects, as have Pendon, Copenhagen Fields, John Birkett-Smith etc.

 

Jerry

A good point Jerry - sorry, I forgot to mention that as I dont use HF track cleaners.

 

I have heard no ill reports of using HF Track cleaners with DC, only good things.

 

Seems like you are well informed anyway.

 

I have noted the used of RCC, which is the hybrid RC version of control, ie Radio Control in 00-9 and 2mm models - I have yet to get my head around such, but I suspect that is the same as those systems used in the larger scales in that the power comes from the track and the signal is from a RC transmitter and thus received by a receiver on-board the models. Of course there are RC handsets from the likes of Digitrax for remote non tethered use. With pure RC, one has to have batteries on-board and there are all the inherent issues with space - but no worries re track cleaning etc. I hope to have a couple of RC locos as our line is a garage-garden-garage 'U'.

 

ATVB

 

CME

[DLT]

I think you have got exactly the right approach with control Jerry; its "horses for courses".

If you want sound then yes, its dcc.  But if you don't want sound then the decission of which control method to adopt is much less clear cut.

DCC is better on a big complex multi-operator layout (that's what its designed for after all), or a small layout with lots of locos like an MPD/TMD.  

But on a bucolic one-engine-in-steam light railway its of no advantage.

With motor control, my experience is that dcc is no better than dc, that's not its purpose.  And as for setting max speed and acceleration rates, I control that by how far and how fast I turn the control knob!

 

We're getting off the subject somewhat, maybe we should start a "Pros & Cons of DCC" thread somewhere?

To get us back online, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on your Pentroller on Sunday Jerry!

 

All the best,

Dave.

[Phil Copleston]

I think you have got exactly the right approach with control Jerry; its "horses for courses".

If you want sound then yes, its dcc.  But if you don't want sound then the decission of which control method to adopt is much less clear cut.

DCC is better on a big complex multi-operator layout (that's what its designed for after all), or a small layout with lots of locos like an MPD/TMD.  

But on a bucolic one-engine-in-steam light railway its of no advantage.

With motor control, my experience is that dcc is no better than dc, that's not its purpose.  And as for setting max speed and acceleration rates, I control that by how far and how fast I turn the control knob!

 

We're getting off the subject somewhat, maybe we should start a "Pros & Cons of DCC" thread somewhere?

To get us back online, I'm looking forward to getting my hands on your Pentroller on Sunday Jerry!

 

Dave,

 

As usual, both you and Jerry are talking a lot of good sense! Not withstanding the valuable contributions to this interesting discussion by others, of course. 

[PaulRhB]

I can certainly see the attraction of dcc on Bath as the number of sections plus points to switch means forgetting one is less likely.

I can't see any reason though that you can't switch out the track cleaners too by adding a switch if you do decide to do both. I have a warning note on my dcc system to check the voltage set to as it switches between 4mm and G so I remember to check. Just tie a note to the power input so you see it every time you swap the wires as an aide memoir.

I only went dcc on my little 4mm branch for the sound and I'd agree with Jerry why convert a layout that works well unless you actually need the other stock and that's probably just temptation

I run my layout at home with just one loco on scene and I've added isolating switches to the FY so I can run DC rather than chipping locos just so I can run them.

[Caley Jim]

I have heard no ill reports of using HF Track cleaners with DC, only good things.

 

CME

! used one on Connerburn before I went DCC and never had any problems.  In fact we often found that the layout was running better at the end of a show than it had been at the start!

Jim

Edited April 25, 2015 by Caley Jim

[D869]

Back in my 'N' gauge days I used one of the Relcos when they first came out. One thing that I do remember about it was that with no loco on the track you would get an unpleasant sting if you touched the rails. I was never very keen on this feature.

 

In the end the thing died and I was never motivated to replace it. I was never convinced that it lived up to the initial 'sell' in terms of performance but maybe the newer ones are better (and I hope less shocking!).

 

Regards, Andy

[Donw]

Frank Thompson who was a fine 2mm modeller at one time made his own unit. As he was also an RAF instructor he used in in one of his lessons. First he would warn them to be careful of the high voltage then show using a scope it was reading 900v again warning of the voltage. At some point he would 'accidently' put his hands across the tracks. Which would generally cause someone to gasp. He would then explain about the circuit and how the voltage was only there until any current flowed when internal losses would cause the voltage to drop

 

Radio control is great if you have on board power such as a real steam engine. The newer 2.4GHz systems are great as the problem of conflicts from other operators has gone as the Transmitter and reciever bond. I think technology has to improve a bit before on board power comes to 2mm.

 

The video a few pages back showed TM running superbly. I cannot think DCC would do any better.

 

Don

[bcnPete]

 You might want to try the Varipulse controller:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/kstapleton3/851.HTM

 

Funnily enough, just received one of these (the assembled version) this week on the back of seeing it mentioned in another thread. Haven't tried it yet but will hope to have it rigged up soon as an alternative to my Pic-controller...which incidentally works really well with my Farish/Dapol blue boxes.

[2ManySpams]

Morning Jerry. Years ago the club I was in had a team layout with full overhead wiring. This had HF tracker cleaners too and they worked well. The only issue was if you accidentally placed hands/wrists on the rails...the result jolt and reflex action damaged the overheads on a fair few occasions! Not a problem on your layouts though.

[2mmMark]

Must admit I'm torn as to whether to convert the North Somerset Light to DCC. I have a lot of experience running DCC in 2mm and have fitted literally hundreds of chips for customers. John Greenwood's North Cornwall empire is DCC and the versatility it offers is fantastic and my own Bath Queensquare project is DCC hence you rarely see any of my mainline locos on the NSLR.

As for running, with good locos, clean track and wheels and a descent controller the running I get with analogue is excellent. This is based on eight to ten shows a year plus running at home, not theory. It is however based on the Pentroller which will eventually die so Mark's flagging up of the Varipulse is really useful and I would certainly like to give one a try.

I also like keeping one foot in each camp with Bath being DCC and the NSLR being analogue. The wide range of visiting locos is one of my favourite aspects of exhibiting and something that has evolved over the last few years - see the Highbury thread as well as this one and going DCC would probably impact on that. That said, the NSLR going DCC would give me access to John's not inconsiderable stud of little locos - Beattie Well tanks, O2s, 13xx panniers and saddle tanks etc.....

The big advantage I see with DCC is the eradication of section switches which on layouts like Wadebridge or Bath simplifies matters enormously. Wadebridge is a joy to operate, trains DCC, points and signals analogue - the signalman sets the route, the driver drives the train.

 

For now the NSLR will remain firmly analogue although with TM/WSW now able to have two engines in steam I am giving it some thought. For the future there is a plan to join all the bits of the NSLR together, Highbury, Tuckng Mill, the Wharf plus a couple of other bits that haven't been built yet and DCC is the obvious choice for that. But that's several years down the line ................

 

Jerry

 

A DCC loco should respond to a DC controller, whereas the end result of placing a DC loco on a DCC energised track will possibly not have a happy ending. 

 

A few years ago, I was at the Narrow Gauge Convention in Rhode island and the Nn3 modular layout was operating in DCC mode and a non-DCC loco using a Marklin Z chassis was placed on the track.  The armature wire became a fuse, I think because it was one of the 5-pole versions with very fine wire windings.  I can foresee this happening with some of the small motors we're now using in 2mm.

 

By contrast, I have a N scale Bachmann 44 tonner which has the factory DCC chip and it works well on a normal controller.

 

As mentioned earlier I've got a couple of Varipulse controllers and got the chance to try one out in anger on Lambourn yesterday. Richard & I were very pleased with how it performed. It was happy driving a variety of motor types.

 

Mark

Edited April 26, 2015 by 2mmMark

[justin1985]

A DCC loco should respond to a DC controller, whereas the end result of placing a DC loco on a DCC energised track will possibly not have a happy ending. 

 

By contrast, I have a N scale Bachmann 44 tonner which has the factory DCC chip and it works well on a normal controller.

 

 

I think you have to be very careful with this. Some DCC chips work quite well on DC, but yesterday Nigel Ashton's Dukedog with Lenz gold chip ran very erratically on Lambourn (using a Pentroller). Also some DCC chips don't support this - e.g. the original Bachmann 36-558 (36-558A does, apparently)

[Nigelcliffe]

I think you have to be very careful with this. Some DCC chips work quite well on DC, but yesterday Nigel Ashton's Dukedog with Lenz gold chip ran very erratically on Lambourn (using a Pentroller). Also some DCC chips don't support this - e.g. the original Bachmann 36-558 (36-558A does, apparently)

Pentrollers confuse a lot of DCC decoders which are set for DC running, not just Lenz. If using a DCC decoder on analogue systems, they really expect "pure DC".

 

- Nigel

[Donw]

The pentroller has a series on longish pulses alternating with short breaks to sample the back emf, quite what the decoder makes of it... possibliy thinks it is zero streching or something. I think any series of pulses are likely to confuse a decoder whereas steady DC is obviously not any kind of signal.

 

Tucking Mill was running very nicely today and Jerry seems to have aquired a second Pentroller

 

Don

[Phil Copleston]

Tucking Mill was running very nicely today and Jerry seems to have aquired a second Pentroller

 

Yeah, my spare Pentroller - originally from Ted Brandon of New Jersey! (2mmMark knows Ted)

Edited April 26, 2015 by Phil Copleston

[queensquare]

I knew a bloke once who went for anything with a pulse!

 

I must admit I know very little about all this technical stuff and have even less interest. I build layouts and run trains with some degree of success. I use what works for me and care little about the technicalities or what theory says should or shouldn't work.

 

John Greenwood came up to Taunton and brought a spare Pentroller with him which we used on the day and as Phil says above he has very kindly donated his spare Pentroller to the cause for which I am extremely grateful. Many, many thanks matey.

 

I was very pleased with the way the layout behaved yesterday, in particular the new Wharf extension which had never been tested bolted to the mother board. The couplings were not as reliable as I like, mainly because I hadn't been through them before the show due to working on the Wharf. A couple of other minor issues cropped up, the main one being that the increased capacity of the layout means the three roads on the train table are no longer sufficient but there is plenty of room for a couple more.

 

I've posted the pictures below on the Members day thread but repeat them here for completeness. The Merchant Navy is a stunning new model from Farish which should hit the shops in a month or so. Muz, who knows about these things, sang it's praises and it ran beautifully - even managing to clamber over the pointwork with its N gauge wheels!

 

 

 

I picked up the SDJR 4F in the auction for a very good price with the intension of repainting it to a more authentic livery but it's so pretty that I will probably content myself with new wheels, some real coal and a little toning down of the lining which is beautifully applied if a little dayglow!!

 

 

John Greenwood brought his old 14xx along, complete with new wheels and motor which I naturally rostered to the Thunderbolt.

 

 

Finally, after all these interlopers, we have NSLR regular, 'Kimberly' shunting in the shadow of Tucking Mill viaduct.

 

Jerry

Edited April 27, 2015 by queensquare

[Crosland]

I think you have to be very careful with this. Some DCC chips work quite well on DC, but yesterday Nigel Ashton's Dukedog with Lenz gold chip ran very erratically on Lambourn (using a Pentroller). Also some DCC chips don't support this - e.g. the original Bachmann 36-558 (36-558A does, apparently)

You need smooth, not pulsed, DC to cure that and, more generally, DC running needs to be enabled in the chip.

[Graham Hughes]

 

 

 

This I recon, was the bargain of the auction that is traditional held at the annual SWAG Staplegrove exhibition.

 

IMGP0843.jpg

For all the improvements in rtr N gauge in recent years, when you look at that model side-on and see the lump of the chassis block and the peculiar angle of the coupling rods you can see the advantage of 2mm FS.

[Caley Jim]

I must admit I know very little about all this technical stuff and have even less interest. I build layouts and run trains with some degree of success. I use what works for me and care little about the technicalities or what theory says should or shouldn't work.

Jerry

I can relate to all of that!  Amps, volts and ohms I can cope with - after that I'm lost!

 

Jim

[autocoupler942]

On ebay recently, a coast and brake box-Pentroller had a figure of £225 and a month before that a handheld one was about £125. If I ever get to take my layout to a show again I will certainly not leave them on-site overnight.

[2mmMark]

On ebay recently, a coast and brake box-Pentroller had a figure of £225 and a month before that a handheld one was about £125. If I ever get to take my layout to a show again I will certainly not leave them on-site overnight.

 

Yes I saw that and boggled slightly at the price.  According to the description it only had "miner" wear.  Reassuring if one ever considers coal fired locos.

 

Mark

[Kylestrome]

On ebay recently, a coast and brake box-Pentroller had a figure of £225 and a month before that a handheld one was about £125. If I ever get to take my layout to a show again I will certainly not leave them on-site overnight.

 

  It looks like I missed out on a good sale. I sold my never-used spare a couple of months ago for the princely sum of £25, being the honest sort of guy I am!    

[Phil Copleston]

  It looks like I missed out on a good sale. I sold my never-used spare a couple of months ago for the princely sum of £25, being the honest sort of guy I am!    

 

And I just gave away my barely-used spare to Jerry! Ahhh well, he's a damn good cause...