Dapol working signals review

[kimitrain]

Got my Dapol signal from Alton Model Centre on saturday. They even had a working one ready wired to show customers how they work.

[David C]

Just for everyone's info, one of the ladies on the Dapol stand at Ally Pally said the 4mm signals would be available at the end of April.... just in case anyone doesn't already know.

 

David C

[Jon Fitness]

Had a look at the 4mm scale version of the upper quadrant signal at Ally Pally on Sunday. A great idea and the action of the 2mm version is very nice (didn't see a working 4mm one). But, and I may be shouted down for this, the arms look to be scaled up from the 2mm version and look (please Dapol, don't take offence) .. a little toylike.

Dapol's locos and rolling stock (in all scales) look superb with close attention paid to accuracy and detail but the signal arms just don't look right at all.

I think the old Ratio ready to plant ones were/are a much better job. An electrically operated and lit version to that standard would have been just as easy to produce surely?

Jon F.

[Howard]

Can anyone say why the signal power supply has to be AC?

Can not a 12V DC supply be used?

 

At least 4 of us in MERG have taken these signals apart to find how they operate.

 

Basically the instructions are wrong - they work perfectly happily on 12V DC. The first part of the internal circuitry is a bridge rectifier which converts the AC to DC, and supplying this with DC is fine.

 

We are looking at ways to convert the signals to a form of operation that makes them better suited to DCC and automation, i.e. 12V DC supply and a toggle switch to change between "stop" and "go"

 

Its a pity we (MERG) were not approached beforehand otherwise we could have advised on this.If Dapol wish to involve us in future electronics we are more than willing to cooperate - our advice is free.

 

 

This picture shows the internals. What is missing is a small black piece of plastic that fits around the motor shaft and between the phosphor bronze springs to act as a limit switch. (we found the black plastic after taking the picture!). One worry is the longevity of the phosphor bronze springs.

 

The motor (and internal electronics) work off 3.3 Volts. Note the motor is held in place with sticky tape.

 

The back of the PCB contains some very small surface mount components. We are not sure of their exact usage as they do not all have labels.

 

Howard.

[DapolDave]

Hi chaps,

 

It's worth noting that Dapol to not recommend 12V dc operation with these signals, as it will invalidate our warranty and this is made perfectly clear in the instructions and warning label.

 

If others experiment and find they work for them on 12V dc operation then that's up to them, and Dapol will not recognise this form of electrical input for them. This is through a reason not guesswork.

 

As for longevity of components, rest assured that we have had these tested to 40,000 operations without failure so far (in fact we gave up at that to be honest). I have an N gauge bracket signal currently on test in China which is undergoing the same 40,000 operations on each arm to test components and wear.

 

I hope this helps.

cheers

Dave

[cromptonnut]

Dave, do you envisage eventually releasing these in 7mm to go with your 7mm stock programme...?

[Horsetan]

..... the signal arms just don't look right at all.....

 

The red / yellow spectacle glass on the GW LQ arms needs to be a good bit bigger - they were near kidney-shaped.

[Gordon H]

If others experiment and find they work for them on 12V dc operation then that's up to them, and Dapol will not recognise this form of electrical input for them. This is through a reason not guesswork.

 

And that reason is?

 

As for longevity of components, rest assured that we have had these tested to 40,000 operations without failure so far (in fact we gave up at that to be honest). I have an N gauge bracket signal currently on test in China which is undergoing the same 40,000 operations on each arm to test components and wear.

 

Although longevity is always an issue with electromechanical devices like this, it is the fundamental method of operation that appears not to have been considered adequately. A simple toggle action each time the switch is closed is completely unacceptable, especially in this day and age where expectations of operational accuracy and the capabilities of control systems to make it happen are much higher than they used to be.

Just wondering... were Dapol simply presented with this mechanism by their Chinese suppliers as a case of 'this is what we've got', or was a requirement specification produced?

[The Stationmaster]

The red / yellow spectacle glass on the GW LQ arms needs to be a good bit bigger - they were near kidney-shaped.

I think the overall shape of the spectacles is probably a bit misleading because the 'frames' are quite heavily moulded (unlike the much finer arrangement on some of the Ratio arms). I'm presuming that it is a compromise for manufacture/assembly and, as I said above, for durability in use. While the use of an etched replacement would be ideal it might be better instead to use the rather thicker (than etched) Ratio plastic arms although durability in heavy usage might then be an issue?

 

Needs a close look at them once they're in the shop (4mm version that its)

[DapolDave]

And that reason is?

 

 

 

Although longevity is always an issue with electromechanical devices like this, it is the fundamental method of operation that appears not to have been considered adequately. A simple toggle action each time the switch is closed is completely unacceptable, especially in this day and age where expectations of operational accuracy and the capabilities of control systems to make it happen are much higher than they used to be.

Just wondering... were Dapol simply presented with this mechanism by their Chinese suppliers as a case of 'this is what we've got', or was a requirement specification produced?

 

Hi Gordon

All models Dapol produce are specified.

Under 12V testing we found the models to be electrically unreliable.

 

The design, although not pleasing some, was to bring a ready to plant signal to the market that would please the majority of modellers, would work with the majorities 16V AC power output, bring new younger modellers to the hobby and be affordable in this current economic climate.

 

To this end i am happy to say that we have completely succeeded

cheers

Dave

[roundhouse]

I hada look at these signals at Ally Pally and whilst they may be a bit chunkier than Ratio ones, these certainly look like they will stand up to more knocks than the Ratio ones. However the below track mechanism does appear to be too deep for my 2" deep timber framing below a half inch deck. Has any one fitted them to this type of board construction?

 

Ian

[Ruffnut Thorston]

At least 4 of us in MERG have taken these signals apart to find how they operate.

 

Basically the instructions are wrong - they work perfectly happily on 12V DC. The first part of the internal circuitry is a bridge rectifier which converts the AC to DC, and supplying this with DC is fine.

 

>SNIPPED

 

Howard.

 

Thanks for the information.

 

"Electrically unreliable". Not so sure I can understand that. Dave, what do the signals actually do if you feed them 12V that invalidates the warrenty?

 

I think these signals are a great step forward.

[Gordon H]

All models Dapol produce are specified.

Under 12V testing we found the models to be electrically unreliable.

 

So Dapol actually specified a mechanism with indeterminate position control? Or was such a fundamental consideration simply overlooked?

If the same approach was taken with locomotives, there would be a huge outcry if users could not predict which way it was going to move each time it was placed on the track.

 

Also, it would seem you were expecting these mechanisms to work with 12V DC. Otherwise, why would you have tested them that way?

Does this mean that the intended supply voltage range was omitted from the spec too? If not, surely the Chinese manufacturers should be taken to task for producing something which fails your tests?

 

The design, although not pleasing some, was to bring a ready to plant signal to the market that would please the majority of modellers, would work with the majorities 16V AC power output, bring new younger modellers to the hobby and be affordable in this current economic climate.

 

Dapol are certainly to be congratulated for taking the initiative in this field, which has long been neglected by mainstream manufacturers. The signals themselves look pretty good to me, albeit as a non-conoisseur of semaphores and their details.

However, this appears to be yet another case where it would have been be no more difficult or expensive to produce something with an interface which would have satisfied virtually everybody's requirements, including established modellers and/or anyone using a control system such as DCC.

I really can't see how the availability of working semaphore signals will have any effect on the number of youngsters taking up the hobby. Concepts such as DCC have far more appeal in the digital age.

If anything, DCC users will be put off using these signals simply because their control system won't know and can't know which way they are set whenever you switch the system on.

[kimitrain]

What type of switch do I need to make the new Dapol signal to work. I have tried a push to make. Switch it only moves down and doesn't stop the motor when it returns to the other position.

Thanks jaeson

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Try this thread : http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/53096-Dapol-working-signals-review/

 

Simon

[phil-b259]

From what I can gather all you need is a simple sprung loaded push to make button. One press makes the signal go one way, a second press reverses it (hence all the complaints about the signals not being DCC friendly). From this I would imagine that if you continually supplied the signal with voltage or you waited to the arm had finished moving before letting go of the button, the signal would assume you wanted to change its state and start going the other way again.

[Gordon H]

It's not just DCC users who will be frustrated by the ill-conceived control method these signals use. Anyone wanting to use a lever frame with them will have similar problems,

A toggling mechanism where you can't specify clear or danger directly from your control switch can hardly be described as a step forwards.

Nice as these signals might appear, if you can't control them properly you may as well use static ones.

[Les Bird]

I have read all these posts with great interest. While some have welcomed this development, others are somewhat critical of various apsects (no pun intended!). On the assumption that you will never please all of the people all of the time, I think Dapol can only hope to please the majority. Unfortunately for them, it's usually the happy majority that fail to speak up so, in the hope of redressing the balance, I would be more than happy to install these signals on my layout just as soon as the LNER versions appear.

[Ruffnut Thorston]

I too would happily install a few such signals, especially a bracket or two, to replace the Ratio examples I have fitted.

 

I could get the AC by running the 12V DC through an Inverter. Using the 240 AC produced to power a Transformer Controller.

 

The Inverter would produce a "Quasi Sine wave" or "Modified Square Wave", so not exactly a "pure" Sine Wave AC Current.

 

Now would this cause any problems? Some Hi Tec stuff does not like non Sine Wave AC!

 

I would say that this discussion should be looked upon as positive feedback and research into the subject.

 

I for one do not want to "fry" anything....

[St. Simon]

Hi,

 

Firstly a big well done to Dapol for taking the leap to produce something that has been desired for so long, the signals look great!

 

Secoundly I believe that using a simple push button to operate the signals is perfectly fine, for people who don't understand wiring very, simply installing a single action switch might be perferred rather to a switch that may need more complicated wiring. I love the idea of a simple push switch without having to worry about which wire I connect to which terminal of a double throw switch!

 

If anything, DCC users will be put off using these signals simply because their control system won't know and can't know which way they are set whenever you switch the system on.

 

To be honest, I think your overlooking the fact that some people who use DCC only use it for operating trains and keep an existing system for operating signals, points and lights, so you can't really use the general term 'DCC users' without putting a proviso that it's DCC users who use it to control trains and accessories that will be put off.

 

Just my opinion

 

Simon

Edited March 31, 2012 by St. Simon

[cheshepe]

Just bought a couple of the upper quadrant signals from Dapol at the Maryport show today. Admittedly the arms are a little heavy compared to my scracthbuilt MSE efforts but they will be sufficient for most modellers who don't wish to spend days messing with tiny bits of brass. I will be adding these to my micro layout, Hartley, early next week. Very good effort by Dapol and something that many UK modellers have been crying out for.

[250BOB]

I'm DCC, and certainly won't be put off using them......I have no intention of ever using DCC for signal and point control, I like the idea of a hands on control panel with buttons andlevers to pull.

Bob

[Stevelewis]

I'm DCC, and certainly won't be put off using them......I have no intention of ever using DCC for signal and point control, I like the idea of a hands on control panel with buttons andlevers to pull.

Bob

 

I fully agree with this Having been a DCC user for many years, experience has taught me that keeping point ( and signal control!!) seperate from the digital loco controller makes a lot of sense,

In practice the digital wiring for points etc is less than that required for analogue control , but that is not really an issue, as each point motor requires wiring anyway.

 

The only exception to this is the Garden Line where digital point control is used , but that is a different scenario, there are not that many ponts and the distances are a lot further, and the ability to control points via the R/C hand held is an advantage, many large scale points are available with decoders already 'on -board' so there is absolutely NO wiring required

 

I look forward though to installing some Dapol signals on the N gauge layout soon!

[PaulRhB]

As it requires a momentary contact could you fit reed switches before and after signals so the train approaching pulls them off and puts them back to danger after it passes? Fit a magnet to say a wagon and have the first reed some way back, unless it's usually only pulled off when nearly on it, and the second a short distance beyond.

[beast66606]

I fully agree with this Having been a DCC user for many years, experience has taught me that keeping point ( and signal control!!) seperate from the digital loco controller makes a lot of sense,

 

Completely separate issue but that's only your personal viewpoint, I would argue the exact opposite - so let's not.