Kirkby Luneside (Original): End of the line....

[Schubert]

OK, I've posted this here as there was a danger an S&C discussion re. turntables and stockades (!!!) could have taken over Gordon's Eastwood Town thread!

 

My thanks to Ian Wales, Ian (Olddudders) and Mike for explaining this to me. Mike - I've copied your comments to here for ease of future reference!

 

 

Sorry Gordon but this has to de dealt with because we have a Settle & Carlisle fan who clearly hasn't read 'Red For Danger' and who also hasn't got a copy of Houghton and Foster http://www.transport...FOSTER_W_Hubert because the former book mentions the story of the Hawes Jcn turntable and the latter illustrates it albeit with the title 'Garsdale Junction'.

 

The turntable at Hawes Jcn was allegedly apt to suffer from the effects of the strong Pennine winds and although Rolt attributes the provision of a stockade to an engine being caught on the table and spinning round & round unaided I bet the real reason for the sleeper stockade was simply to make the job a lot easier in bad weather. I believe the turntable was taken out of use in the 1950s - it, or rather the stockade, is visible in post war pictures and remnants of the stockade could still be seen in the 1960s. And the turntable is also included on the 40ft plan I have of Hawes Junction.

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

 

I think an engine spinning round and round is a bit far fetched. For this to happen the wind would need to be blowing on one end of the table only! If the wind was strong enough to move the table/loco combo then surely it would 'weathercock' into the wind and not go any further round.

 

Apologies for knocking a great S&C legend !

[Physicsman]

And with the Wensleydale only 10 mins away it Sounds like the perfect home !

 

Dark skies, a pub, a loft, a railway. It does sound good, Al. He's obviously so preoccupied with the possible move he's not been on here for a few days!

 

Just come out of the bunker. That's it for tonight. I want to "pin down" the location for the viaducts tomorrow - if I get chance. Circumstances mean I'll miss the NYMR Diesel gala as well.

 

Enjoy your 7 1/4 gauge!!

 

Jeff

 

Edit. Al, I think Mike's theory that the stockade was winter protection is more than likely.

Edited September 14, 2012 by Physicsman

[robmcg]

A most enjoyable read, is this thread, thankyou Jeff. I particularly enjoy the opportunities for thread drift, as in the wind-blown nature of parts or all of the S&C., the references to sheep, I feel entirely at home!

 

You mentioned that your father was a joiner, and this makes me think of the building of the viaducts on the line, as well as in most other parts of Britain, where stonework was done via timber supports and scaffolding, spectacular edifices in their own right and in the case of the S&C in very unfriendly locations.. and ne'er a mention in Thomas Hardy's novels. Oops, they probably built viaducts in Wessex and left out the stonework!

 

As to high wind, and in the spirit of complete thread drift I offer a video taken about a week ago of a New Zealand Railways 'J' class 4-8-2, the kind which was designed in 1938-9 and built by North British of Glasgow (almost S&C country really) and then after WW2 by our own workshops, No.1271 being built in 1955 ..steam reverser, fully roller-bearing, capable of 70mph on the Canterbury Plains with unaided 16-total express trains, all on 3' 6" and quite tight loading guage rather like the SR Hastings line. I travelled on the cab engines like this in the 1960s when I was 15 or so and had an 8mm movie camera or a 6x6 twin-lens reflex still camera and rolls of FP3. It gives an idea of the inspiration I have for my pictures. The video shows exactly where I grew up and spent much of my time watching trains.

 

And apologies to the forum moderators for my tangental offerings.. it's too much time in the cold wind waiting to photograph trains you know. And yes, the turntable stockade would have been a windbreak, even though it's possible for crosswind to vary from one end of an engine to another, so I fully believe the story!

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXsq6dEl_7o&feature=plcp

Edited September 14, 2012 by robmcg

[jukebox]

*snip*

I've never been to NZ. I almost made it to Oz in 2001, as I'd planned to take my honeymoon there, but that fell through. In fact, I've never been into the southern hemisphere - a must-do, in order to see the southern stars (I'm an Astronomy nutter). So NZ it will be in a couple of years. A friend who toured the country 3 years ago just confirmed my determination. She came back with around 2000 digital images, showing beautiful landscapes and friendly people.

*snip*

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

 

In which case, what a shame you could not have come down in our summer of 2007, Jeff. We had an unexpected visit from a great comet - the first I've ever seen. I can honestly say it was an incredibly moving experience - so surreal and otherwordly...

 

A couple of links in case you hadn't seen them before:

 

http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/ap070205.html

 

http://www.twanight.org/newtwan/photos/3001530.jpg

 

Cheers

 

Scott

[robmcg]

....

 

The S&C is a rugged place and it's great to be able to run classics like Black 5s and 9Fs on the model. Of course, I've kopped-out on the era: mid 60s also allowing plenty of diesel power...BR green.

 

I've just stuck some cork sheeting down onto parts of the baseboard, so tracklaying is getting closer. If I get any nice images of locos running over my viaducts I'll send them to you for a bit of "Robbie's image processing"!!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

 

Some degree of image processing would be a pleasure, but no green BR diesels please.

 

Here is Hornby's lovely weathered Black Five... just needs nice track and well-drawn background really. and maybe a better photo to begin with, as I might do sometime soon. Always a learning curve for me, this photo business! I took this one some years ago on a 6ft long diorama..

 

Edited September 15, 2012 by robmcg

[Physicsman]

Wow! I sneak off to bed for 6 hours sleep and the "antipodean boys" strike back!!

 

To both of you. Thread drift is a very good thing. It makes for a good read and maintains interest. Where else would I have learnt about turntable stockades, Rob's interest in Thomas Hardy or Scott's viewing of the 2007 comet than on here!? Keep it going. Things are relatively slow here, at the moment (though compared to my last layout I'm working at warp factor nine!). I've never submitted my "creations" to public perusal before, so we need stuff to keep the thread moving.

 

That Black 5 picture is superb, Rob. I think I'll set is as my desktop background.

 

Rambling onwards, yes, dad is a retired joiner. A very good one, too. Having followed an academic path through to PhD level, I do sometimes wish I'd pursued a practical trade. Grandad was a bricklayer. When the two of them set to work to build an extension on my dad's house, it was a sight to behold. I can bricklay (umm, thread drift...picture below of me in 2002...), but the speed and skill of these guys. Rob - you mentioned wooden viaducts. There used to be a fantastic wooden structure at Stainmore - not 40 miles from here - on the line which (amongst other things) ferried iron ore across to Barrow (my hometown). Sadly, it is no more. I wouldn't have fancied modelling that... too many lollipop sticks needed!

 

I'll stop woffling for the mo, dig up that picture and post!

 

Best wishes to both of you,

 

Jeff

Edited September 15, 2012 by Physicsman

[Physicsman]

I've changed my mind about Stainmore. Picture enclosed - it looks like its a metal construction. Still spectacular though!

 

Edited September 15, 2012 by Physicsman

[gordon s]

Just to pick up on my recommendation for No Nonsense glue, Jeff, I had to realign some parts of track last night and this is where I found this glue to be perfect. It sticks in five minutes or so and is more than sufficient to hold the track in place, but it does have a plus, in as much once dry, the joint is slightly brittle and can be broken.

 

I eventually found the perfect tool. An old table knife from my grandmothers day. Flat and thin enough to be flexible, but wide enough to go under two sleepers at a time. Taking it carefully you can lift SMP track without damage and use it again. Once you have spread the glue down use drawing pins to hold it in place.

 

Here's a couple of pics showing a turnout held in position and the residue after lifting a piece of track. A quick rub with a piece of sandpaper will give a flat surface again.

 

 

Edited September 15, 2012 by gordon s

[Physicsman]

Thanks Gordon. I'm glad I followed your advice and bought the stuff - it looks ideal. I like contact adhesives but, as I found when building the viaduct, they are a bit too instant once cured. I have to say I was surprised to find that PVA stuck plastikard/Slaters to the MDF and gave time for adjustment. I tried this on the Branch viaduct. Did take a while to dry, though!

 

I remember those old knives. My grandparents had them too. Haven't got any now, more's the pity. I'll find an equivalent.

 

It's always reassuring when you know that you don't only have one chance to "get it right"!!

 

Cheers,

 

Jeff

Edited September 15, 2012 by Physicsman

[coachmann]

I won't budge from PVA and for good reason. My track goes down without pins (or rarely used) and the PVA allows plenty of time for ballasting at the same time as the track goes down, vacuuming off the excess, sprinkling on grass in the odd parts where PVA has oozed through, final adjustments to alighnment before placing on lengths of 3X1 straight timber and half the contents of my book shelves. Two hours later the weights are removed for a final check, as there is still time to make sure a straight section of track is definitely straight, then back go a few weights while I get on with something else.

 

If changes are made later, as per my goods yard, the Peco points can be lifted with care (even the more flimsy Code 83), although flexible track will destroy.

Edited September 15, 2012 by coachmann

[Physicsman]

I won't budge from PVA and for good reason. My track goes down without pins (or rarely used) and the PVA allows plenty of time for ballasting at the same time as the track goes down, vacuuming off the excess, sprinkling on grass in the odd parts where PVA has oozed through, final adjustments to alighnment before placing on lengths of 3X1 straight timber and half the contents of my book shelves. Two hours later the weights are removed for a final check, as there is still time to make sure a straight section of track is definitely straight, then back go a few weights while I get on with something else.

 

If changes are made later, as per my goods yard, the Peco points can be lifted with care (even the more flimsy Code 83), although flexible track will destroy.

 

Indeed, Larry, as you so ably demonstrated when you lifted the track to remove the "bump" under your mainline.

 

Good stuff, PVA.

 

Jeff

[Andrew P]

Hi Jeff, I like the advice on the glues etc for fixing the track, I will need to take back my 4 inch nails I bought for the job now then. You people from up north do the strangest things, e up lads ha ha ha. all the best Andy.

[Physicsman]

Hi Jeff, I like the advice on the glues etc for fixing the track, I will need to take back my 4 inch nails I bought for the job now then. You people from up north do the strangest things, e up lads ha ha ha. all the best Andy.

 

Cheers Andy - I needed a laugh after the day I've been having. Tied-up with visitors, then just spent the last hour pulling a large water-lily (and it's root system) from my pond. Presently covered in foul-smelling mud. Almost as bad as the smell of all those adhesives, eh?

 

Btw, has nobody told you. Track pins are a better alternative to 4" nails!!

 

Jeff

[Andrew P]

Cheers Andy - I needed a laugh after the day I've been having. Tied-up with visitors, then just spent the last hour pulling a large water-lily (and it's root system) from my pond. Presently covered in foul-smelling mud. Almost as bad as the smell of all those adhesives, eh?

 

Btw, has nobody told you. Track pins are a better alternative to 4" nails!!

 

Jeff

TRACK NAILS, ? I have only just progressed from SIX INCH NAILS ha ha ha ha ha.P.S did you wear a SNORKEL or a divers helmet, to pull ouy that lilly?

[Physicsman]

TRACK NAILS, ? I have only just progressed from SIX INCH NAILS ha ha ha ha ha.P.S did you wear a SNORKEL or a divers helmet, to pull ouy that lilly?

 

Fantastic!! That made me laugh! Yes, I'd heard that miniaturisation had reached deepest Derbyshire. What next - you'll be using transistors instead of valves!!

 

Tell you what, Andy. A scuba suit and snorkel would have come in handy!

 

Btw, when will you find out the result of the Hornby comp?

 

Jeff

[robmcg]

I think an engine spinning round and round is a bit far fetched. For this to happen the wind would need to be blowing on one end of the table only! If the wind was strong enough to move the table/loco combo then surely it would 'weathercock' into the wind and not go any further round.

 

Apologies for knocking a great S&C legend !

 

Actually wind blowing off or along the flank of a sloping hillside could easily push one end of a turning engine if the engine was side-on, on a turntable set flat into the hillside with one half 'exposed' and one half sheltered.

 

It does not take a huge force to turn a well-balanced loco on a well-lubricated turntable. An 80mph gust could easily set it off, and the point where the engine was 'end-on' to the wind, well, there is inertia to keep it spinning, so long as one side of the turntable is exposed to wind and the other not exposed, an engine could spin all day....

 

Wind commonly blew trains off tracks around here over the years, and strong side winds were the very worst feeling for crews, sometimes reducing to about 15mph... for safety as much as anything. In any event it would be highly plausible on the S&C to have an unattended locomotive left spinning on a turntable. I fully expect Jeff to incorporate a powered turntable into his layout to this end. Local colour, as they say.

 

Rob

Edited September 15, 2012 by robmcg

[Physicsman]

Evening (for you) Rob. Unfortunately, the layout plan is set in stone, so no space for a turntable. Hopefully there will be plenty of other operational interest to keep me busy.

 

I spent an hour in the bunker trying to work out the viaduct positions and I'm going to sketch out the fiddle yard plan directly onto the baseboard today. I think the FY may not be as extensive as the earlier plans; we will see.

 

When I built my previous layout I wanted sweeping curves - and thought I'd incorporated them. The picture below shows a curve of radius 52cm. When I look at the viaduct area, I've achieved around 140cm (54"). This may not be huge to club layouts, but it's huge to me - and the juices flow imagining trains winding round them!

 

Here's my "large-radius" curve from "Valley Junction" (2007)... as Andy pointed out in a PM, I'm aware the class 25 is on the wrong line! It was testing maintenance standards!!

 

Jeff

Edited September 16, 2012 by Physicsman

[The Stationmaster]

Here's my large-radius curve from "Valley Junction" (2007)... as Andy pointed out in a PM, I'm aware the class 25 is on the wrong line! It was testing maintenance standards!!

Jeff

 

Looks more like Single Line Working to me Jeff although the Pilotman obviously was not 'showing himself' to persons on and about the line.

 

I doubt if you have the right sort of rationale (let alone enough space!) for a turntable at Kirkby Luneside; I'm fairly sure that the one at Hawes Jcn was the only one on the S&C proper and it was there as the place was effectively the summit for assisting Up trains with the assistant engines coming off there and needing to be turned before heading back to Carlisle. It might possibly have also been used by the engines off NER trains from Hawes - at a price of course (probably 6d or 1/- per time used as they seem fairly typical charges for that period).

 

The turntable at Hawes Jcn was of course right out in the open and thus exposed to the full force of the wind in its position on the 'shelf' sticking well out from the side of the valley hence it could have been very hard work to turn an engine on it before the stockade was built.

[Physicsman]

I'm no S&C expert - I've been attracted to the line for many years by its pure scenic beauty. However, one of the benefits of modelling the thing is the immense amount of knowledge you build up on the prototype. Track formations in stations - how characteristic they are, and the variety/structure of viaducts, to name but two.

 

I think the turntable is reserved for the next layout. And yes, I'm already thinking about it. Andy P, your shunting layouts are having a profound effect. Even if you do use TWELVE inch nails!!!

 

Jeff

Edited September 16, 2012 by Physicsman

[trisonic]

Jeff coming along nicely.

 

Looking at your photo - it may just be foreshortening caused by the lens - but do you factor in "easements" into your curves?

 

Best, Pete.

[Physicsman]

Hi Pete. If you are referring to transitional curves following a straight, the photo (post 692) from my old layout doesn't have them. Hate to admit it, but what you see is a combination of code 100 setrack... so fixed geometry.

 

Kirkby Luneside does. For example: the Branch leaving the station goes from straight, through 60" down to 42" radius by the time it gets to the viaduct.

 

Jeff

 

Edit: Or were you referring to an earlier post?

Edited September 16, 2012 by Physicsman

[Andrew P]

Evening (for you) Rob. Unfortunately, the layout plan is set in stone, so no space for a turntable. Hopefully there will be plenty of other operational interest to keep me busy.

 

I spent an hour in the bunker trying to work out the viaduct positions and I'm going to sketch out the fiddle yard plan directly onto the baseboard today. I think the FY may not be as extensive as the earlier plans; we will see.

 

When I built my previous layout I wanted sweeping curves - and thought I'd incorporated them. The picture below shows a curve of radius 52cm. When I look at the viaduct area, I've achieved around 140cm (54"). This may not be huge to club layouts, but it's huge to me - and the juices flow imagining trains winding round them!

 

Here's my "large-radius" curve from "Valley Junction" (2007)... as Andy pointed out in a PM, I'm aware the class 25 is on the wrong line! It was testing maintenance standards!!

 

Jeff

Hi Jeff, that pic in post 692 is a real cracker and I want to emulate that sort of scene one day, true insperation mate, shame it has gone, or going, cheers Andy

[Andrew P]

I'm no S&C expert - I've been attracted to the line for many years by its pure scenic beauty. However, one of the benefits of modelling the thing is the immense amount of knowledge you build up on the prototype. Track formations in stations - how characteristic they are, and the variety/structure of viaducts, to name but two.

 

I think the turntable is reserved for the next layout. And yes, I'm already thinking about it. Andy P, your shunting layouts are having a profound effect. Even if you do use TWELVE inch nails!!!

 

Jeff

And yes Jeff I find shunting very theraputic but I am still longing for a continuous run layout one day. Andy.

[Physicsman]

Thanks Andy. Must admit, I will be saving some of the bits from the old layout - including some of the rock faces. Seems stupid to throw them away and then re-make them. Even if they break into bits you can re-arrange them and re-use them.

 

I'll certainly credit you with giving me the shunting bug. I intend to have trains running on the Main, while controlling the Branch and shunting in the yard. Should be great fun! Your layouts have given me plenty of ideas. Great thing about this "hobby" is the sharing of ideas and advice that goes on.

 

I've just come in from the bunker. I've spent a couple of hours sticking loads of cork down. If I spend any longer in there I'll have to buy that scuba kit you mentioned in order to protect my brain from solvent damage!

 

All the best,

 

Jeff

[Andrew P]

Hi Jeff, glad you are saving the rocks and bits, HAVE YOU CUT A TURF YET? Oh and I see a tread of yours in the Layouts section at 04.58 this morning I was still snooring very loudly at that time of day acording to the good Mrs P. Re Hornby results, the winner will be announced in the Nov edition out on 11th Oct, Don't forget it is not finescale and does not have pretty little flower beds or a fully equipped workshop such as those done by Mudmagnet and Mason etc.just hope they have not entered, ha ha In that size I could have built the complete S & C in T Gauge but me 4 inch nails would make a mess of fiting the track. All the best Andy.