Resupplying or restocking buffet/restaurant cars in the 70s

[Dave777]

Can anyone please tell me how buffet and/or restaurant cars were resupplied or restocked in the 1970s?

 

So I'm thinking of them arriving at a London terminus - were they shunted off to a different area to be restocked or was this done on the passenger platform? How did the replenishment items get there, were they transported via BR-marked road vehicles or would we see 'Mothers Pride' or 'Walls Sausages' vehicles unloading?

 

Just trying to get a handle on how to model this operation. Thanks in advance.

[Mike at C&M]

I have recollections of the rake of coaches staying where it had arrived (and was due to depart), and a post office trolley being borrowed to 'trundle' the boxes of food and drink up to the buffet car. Items were then 'handballed' into the buffet car.

 

Low-tech, but it worked

[The Stationmaster]

I think it was usual - certainly at the London termini and probably no different elsewhere - for stations to have a 'Restaurant Car Stores' where all the stock was held. It would then be loaded to individual cars according to the order placed by the staff of that car. The bit that I never saw, but which clearly must have happened, is that the Stores were stocked from somewhere, by road, and this would of course take several forms because there was fresh stuff plus 'dry goods' plus alcohol and so on.

 

The 'Restaurant Car Department' seemed to have their own platform tractors at large stations and very often their own trolleys until BRUTES came in then they just used any from what was to hand (or hung onto some for their use).

 

Cars were normally stocked at platform side in my experience and were de-stoocked before going off to carriage sidings at the end of teh working day (although the latter might not have always been the case by teh '70s with only perishable and vulnerable stuff being de0rt-stocked and the rest left under lock & key. One bit of amusement at Paddington was the Fridays only 'diners up 1A' which saw a whole trainsworth of dining cars into Platform 1A early in the morning then being stocked before going back to Old Oak to marshall into Saturday workings then the whole process reversed on Saturday night/Sunday. I think that finished in the very early 1970s but was definitely still going on in the late 1960s.

[96701]

ICOBS in the nineties. Inter City On Board Services. At Kings Cross, they existed underneath the station and had their own tow tractors, trailers and customer trolleys. I had the impression that they had been there a long time, so I reckon they were there in the seventies because they had a subway and lifts to reach the platforms, and they looked like they had been there since the station was built.

[6959]

Going slightly off topic,

 

How did they clean restaurant and buffet cars and kitchens?

 

The main difference between an RFO and a FO was that restaurant first open had loose seats and had 'RESTAURANT' or 'RESTAURANT CAR' painted on each side whereas a first open had fixed seats and no branding. Similar with RSO and SO.

 

Did the cars marked 'RESTAURANT', 'RESTAURANT CAR' or 'BUFFET' get a higher standard of cleanliness than a standard open coach used as a substute?

[96701]

How did they clean restaurant and buffet cars and kitchens?

 

Did the cars marked 'RESTAURANT', 'RESTAURANT CAR' or 'BUFFET' get a higher standard of cleanliness than a standard open coach used as a substute?

 

Cleanliness in the seventies? Are you mad?

[Bob Reid]

Cleanliness in the seventies? Are you mad?

 

What experience do you have of the cleanliness - or was it a guess?

[96701]

I was a customer. The seventies weren't renowned for good service - seats full of dust - coaches without water or heat. It certainly wasn't 'the good old days'.

[Cathkin Park]

Stocks would be refilled at platforms, as to cleaning in the seventies, never saw any of that

 

Did BR have special machines for curling the sandwiches or was it just part of the process . Although I remember I was quite partial to their ham & tomato.

[Bob Reid]

It would be a bit unfair to put all of BRs rolling stock & services into that category surely?

 

As far as the catering vehicles were concerned, they were subjected to the same scheduled interior cleaning as all other rolling stock though clearly specific attention was given to the food preparation and service areas, having specific levels of cleaning given on a daily / weekly / monthly etc. basis. BR was subject to more than the normal scrutiny by the Environmental Health Inspectors - especially for some odd reason at the London end of the routes - Most of the Mk1 cars were still heavily used and had suffered by the early 70s of day in day out use (despite the usual overhauls) since the late 50s and also despite additional work given during the introduction of the late build Mark 2 stock on the EC & WCMLs such that following on from the report from one particularly critical EHO the whole fleet was subjected to refurbishment - mainly concentrating on replacing the once formica preparation surfaces for even more stainless steel, and the overhaul & replacement of the grills and ovens and all of the refrigeration and fridge cases. Fortunately the introduction of the HSTs helped no end!

 

Your right Phil, it wasn't always as it should have been however it certainly wasn't that bad - not on the railway I remember.

 

- A small side note. Ask yourself (or your partner) when you first started using self-healing plastic chopping blocks / cutting mats for food preparation? I was fitting these in Mark 1 buffets as part of the interior refurbs in 1975!

[The Stationmaster]

How did they clean restaurant and buffet cars and kitchens?

At regular intervals the entire kitchen equipment was stripped out (the removable parts that is and put into a bath of soda in boiling water for a day which very thoroughly removed any trace of greases. I can't remember the frequency but I'm reasonably sure it was done 4 weekly and it took the best part of a working day (for one cleaner) to strip the car and the same to reassemble it. While all the removable stuff was in the 'bath' all the fixed metalwork in the kitchen and storage areas was deep cleaned but with rather less aggressive chemicals and of course it was all thoroughly rinsed before reassembly. Some where I've got the Standard times allowed for the work and they were by far and away the largest times given for any carriage cleaning work.

 

And like Bob we had EHO people poking their nose in whenever it suited them, not that we minded as we usually did a good job but we did on one occasion come across cockroaches in a diner which had been out of use for a while and, unusually, had not been fully destocked of dry goods - it got some very heavy cleaning attention after 'initial treatment'

[andyman7]

Of course, there was the other form of restocking which involved certain stewards going to Tescos or wherever to supplement the stock, which of course was then sold alongside the regular deliveries without any need to account for the takings.....

[Tim H]

Outside the period, I know, but I remember a Cornwall-bound train that re-stocked mid-journey at a booked station stop (at Exeter, I think), because they'd run out of sandwiches. Some time in the 1980s, IIRC)

[Gwiwer]

I worked for what was then Traveller's Fare, the BR catering division, slightly after the period requested and during the transition to privatisation of the catering operations but am able to confirm much of what has been posted above. The methods and systems had at that stage not changed materially since the 1970s insofar as Mk1 catering vehicles were concerned. The systems for Mk3 catering vehicles (which were introduced during the later 1970s) were in some respects radically different.

 

In London and at many regional cities trains were re-stocked in the platform from the Restaurant Car Stores which came under the wing of TF. That operation was split fundamentally into "station catering" and "restaurant cars" with some overlap between. TF had their own tow-tractors and trolley equipment at some larger stations, or borrowed the platform staff items elsewhere by arrangement. Where smaller loads were handled a manual hand-cart or trolley was used. It was not by any means unknown for a BR BRUTE trolley to be appropriated and for the TF ones to go "walkies". One of ours (which should have been at Euston) was found dumped at Shotton for example!!!

 

"Restaurant Cars" staffed the trains and stock was ordered by the chief steward based upon what had been sold in the case of long-life items and a standing order for perishables such as sandwiches. On a few long trips trains were re-stocked mid-run as were some which terminated at locations where there was no store or where they reached the terminus after stores hours and would depart early next day. This accounts for some trains bring re-supplied at Exeter St. Davids (usually those bound for Penzance where there was no supply store) and ECML trains starting from or continuing beyond Edinburgh were usually re-supplied there. On one occasion the chief steward of an up London train was obliged to announce after each stop that there was only a buffet service of drinks as no stores had been brought to the train at Edinburgh and there was no food on board. That was the set which (at the time) worked the 06.00 Kings Cross - Aberdeen and return. As noted above Aberdeen only had emergency supplies available once the Inverness buffet cars had been closed down.

 

As the traditional buffet cars gave way to more and more trolleys the perishables were often ordered from TF station catering. At Liverpool Street we provided the sandwiches for the Clacton trains for example while the non-perishables were outsourced and stored by the trolley operators until required.

 

It used to be the case that fresh supplies were loaded to trains and catering stewards made up sandwiches to order. This created issues of consistent product range and quality and of portion control. Aside from those there was an increasing awareness then of the health and hygiene risks associated with handling cash and unwrapped food plus it took either an extra crew member to make up food items or took the solitary steward an age to serve each customer. All had negative impacts on the operation. Sandwiches were then made "on shore" and supplied to the trains during station layovers.

 

SR buffet cars were no exception and perishables could be found being removed from buffet cars by the steward at the end of a day's work at locations such as Littlehampton and Bognor Regis. Again anything beyond a cuppa and a wrapped snack was usually made to order on board and the evening business trains down from Victoria were renowned for the ability to purchase a generous cheese-on-toast ("with Worcester Sauce, Sir?") with ones' after-work scotch and soda / gin and tonic before settling into the high-back, generously-upholstered 4Big buffet car seats for the trip home.

[Dave777]

Thanks everyone, with a special mention for Rick as that was a great post. Strangely enough, over the weekend I was watching the first episode of ‘Going Straight’, with Ronnie Barker as Norman Stanley Fletcher in his post-‘Porridge’ role, and in that he catches the train to London and much of the episode takes place in a 70s BR buffet car. The steward makes him up a sandwich to order (I think he says something like ‘I haven’t had chance to make the sandwiches yet’), which surprised me, but your post confirms the accuracy of the scene. Less accurate were the shots of a Deltic going past and then an electric pulling into the station, but let’s not go there…

 

 

So my idea was to model a separate area near to a station for parcels and buffet car replenishment, but I’m suspecting that I wouldn’t be entirely accurate. I’m going to do the parcels bit anyway, I was just exploring the possibility of increasing the stock variety with the odd buffet or restaurant car arriving at a separate platform (but still within the same location) and some boxes of suitably-marked food items sitting on the platform or trollies. Do we feel I have any scope there or would I just be totally wrong?

[The Stationmaster]

 

So my idea was to model a separate area near to a station for parcels and buffet car replenishment, but I’m suspecting that I wouldn’t be entirely accurate. I’m going to do the parcels bit anyway, I was just exploring the possibility of increasing the stock variety with the odd buffet or restaurant car arriving at a separate platform (but still within the same location) and some boxes of suitably-marked food items sitting on the platform or trollies. Do we feel I have any scope there or would I just be totally wrong?

 

Nothing wrong with that approach Dave (see 'diners up 1A' in my notes) although I think it has to be the 'right kind of station' to justify it = perhaps cars being stocked to go into Summer saturday workings or being de-stocked after coming out of them?

[Gwiwer]

I concur with Mike.

 

While that sort of set-up would not have been the norm for the servicing of catering vehicles the one thing which was "the norm" on the railways was the fact that everything had an exception! If you were to assume Mike's scenario then you could potentially have a parcels depot which also doubled as a seasonal restaurant car stores for summer relief trains. Just bear in mind though that a good many of those never actually conveyed catering at all (perhaps the occasional and often unadvertised trolley) despite making sometimes lengthy journeys.

 

Table 51 of the BR timetable (the cross-country routes) used to have a plethora of footnotes applicable to the one-time armada of overnight trains which ran from all points north to the Devon and Cornwall resorts overnight on Fridays to arrive Saturday mornings. "Passengers may alight at Bristol Temple Meads to purchase refreshments subject to maintaining the scheduled departure time. Please listen for announcements." Temple Meads was kept busy in the small hours of summer Saturday mornings with as many as five trains making extended stops side by side. Just the one main station buffet was kept open all night as none of the trains conveyed catering.

 

The return workings during Saturday daytime enjoyed no such luxuries since they had to keep time as best they could often struggling gamely with loads of up to 16 Mk1 coaches behind a single locomotive east of Newton Abbot / Exeter.

 

I should also perhaps amplify my comments about re-supplying trains at Exeter St. Davids. There was a supply store there which was used mainly for the Waterloo line trains. In the 1970s most loco-hauled trains detached the catering car(s) and a few others at Plymouth where they were serviced in the platform before being attached to an up working. The Golden Hind and occasionally others had buffet service through into Cornwall (officially to and from Truro as the steward then needed to clean / cash up and be ready to alight at Penzance or to board there and set up in the morning) and it was these trains which were re-supplied at Exeter. Once the Plymouth portions ceased, which occurred more or less as the first HST sets arrived in the south-west, a few more trains required re-stocking at Exeter and had buffet service to and from Truro but with no re-supply facilities at Penzance.

 

At one time I commuted (weekly!) between Hayle and Manor Park making regular use of the 15.35 HST from Paddington. The buffet always closed after Taunton and did not reopen as it was staffed by a Plymouth man who had to clean and close up before ensuring all perishable stock was removed from the train during a 3-minute stop at his home station. The train crew themselves were all Exeter men; leaving Paddington they were on the return leg of a duty which took them up in the morning and were relieved by a fresh crew who then rested at Penzance for an hour or so before working back up on the sleeper. Today most trains are re-supplied at Plymouth.

[Black Sheep]

if there was a gap in the workings of the buffets would they have been moved from the main platforms before being brought back to be a later train?

 

if so it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination that they'd be re-stocked while being 'stored'

[The Stationmaster]

if there was a gap in the workings of the buffets would they have been moved from the main platforms before being brought back to be a later train?

 

if so it's not too much of a stretch of the imagination that they'd be re-stocked while being 'stored'

By the 1970s most buffet cars remained in the coaching sets with which they worked and were only taken out for heavy cleaning (although sometimes if the set was stopped for a heavy clean there'd be no need to shunt out the buffet but it would be taken out if the set was booked a lift). The 'loose' cars were used as spares to cover a car out for maintenance or repair or failure of some sort and at weekends to add to sets which otherwise worked without cars. For instance on the Western we had loco hauled commuter sets which got long distance work at weekends in the summer and required a car to be put into the formation - just for the weekend as the set would be back on commuter work on Monday morning, very occasionally with the diner left in because delays or whatever had not left time to take it out on Sunday night.

 

BTW the term 'diner' colloquially covered all types of car although most (all?) would have been buffet cars.

[Gwiwer]

There were numerous different designs of catering vehicle and many modifications over the years of service but in general "buffet" cars would imply RMB to the railway (not necessarily to the passenger) while the various "restaurant" cars also served take away food and drinks from a buffet counter in addition to being able to offer a hot meal service. The full meal service was always a labour-intensive operation for a relatively small number of passengers (and hence, in part, the high cost of those meals) and for much of the time those vehicles were used solely for buffet service with a single steward or - at best - a crew of two. Generically passengers referred to the catering vehicle as the "buffet" while as Mike notes railway staff usually used the term "diner" irrespective of the level of service provided.

 

It was not uncommon for a restaurant and buffet to be marshalled together on some workings where meal uptake was higher in order for the dining car crew to concentrate on meals service and at-seat teas and coffees through the train. RKB kitchen cars were almost always coupled in tandem with a buffet as they had no public service counter. That concept was perpetuated in early HST sets which featured both TRUK (kitchen) and TRUB (buffet) vehicles in the same set catering, ostensibly, to first and standard class passengers respectively. The powers that be decreed that to be over-provision and the rest as they say is history - the TRUK cars had a vey short and sporadic service life in their original form.

[Black Sheep]

By the 1970s most buffet cars remained in the coaching sets with which they worked and were only taken out for heavy cleaning (although sometimes if the set was stopped for a heavy clean there'd be no need to shunt out the buffet but it would be taken out if the set was booked a lift). The 'loose' cars were used as spares to cover a car out for maintenance or repair or failure of some sort and at weekends to add to sets which otherwise worked without cars. For instance on the Western we had loco hauled commuter sets which got long distance work at weekends in the summer and required a car to be put into the formation - just for the weekend as the set would be back on commuter work on Monday morning, very occasionally with the diner left in because delays or whatever had not left time to take it out on Sunday night.

 

BTW the term 'diner' colloquially covered all types of car although most (all?) would have been buffet cars.

 

I was meaning the entire train (minus motive power) being moved to await a duity later in the day, not marshalling the dining / buffet cars out

sorry if I didn't make myself clear

[Gwiwer]

There were occasions when that happened but rolling stock utilisation in the 1970s meant that usually a rake was left in the platform to form its next service. Exceptions occurred when external cleaning or servicing were required of course and in many locations overnight. During quieter parts of the day trains arriving at London terminals were taken out to be washed for example and returned for a later down working. Buffet cars were on the whole still serviced in the platforms and not in a depot or sidings. Aside from the logistics of transporting food to a fan of railway sidings there is the issue of safely lifting it from ground level (in many locations) into and out of the vehicles.

[Bomag]

There were numerous different designs of catering vehicle and many modifications over the years of service but in general "buffet" cars would imply RMB to the railway (not necessarily to the passenger) while the various "restaurant" cars also served take away food and drinks from a buffet counter in addition to being able to offer a hot meal service. The full meal service was always a labour-intensive operation for a relatively small number of passengers (and hence, in part, the high cost of those meals) and for much of the time those vehicles were used solely for buffet service with a single steward or - at best - a crew of two. Generically passengers referred to the catering vehicle as the "buffet" while as Mike notes railway staff usually used the term "diner" irrespective of the level of service provided. It was not uncommon for a restaurant and buffet to be marshalled together on some workings where meal uptake was higher in order for the dining car crew to concentrate on meals service and at-seat teas and coffees through the train. RKB kitchen cars were almost always coupled in tandem with a buffet as they had no public service counter. That concept was perpetuated in early HST sets which featured both TRUK (kitchen) and TRUB (buffet) vehicles in the same set catering, ostensibly, to first and standard class passengers respectively. The powers that be decreed that to be over-provision and the rest as they say is history - the TRUK cars had a vey short and sporadic service life in their original form.

Not all restaurant' cars had buffets and those that had normally included a specific reference e.g. RB for 16xx/17xx vehicles. The RKB (15xx) you mentioned did have a buffet counter which separarted them out from the RK (800xx). There were apparently regular cases where an unmodified RU (19xx) was paired with an RMB up to the late 70's, possibly early 80's. Well before then there was a policy to provide both facilities in one vehicle e.g. RU to RU(B)and RF to RB(K) and finally the standardisation on the RBR with ulitarian plastic seats for everything other than the Pullamns These tended to have two catering vehicles as a single car could not serve enough breakfasts and therfore one vehicle was dedicated to meals and the buffet was shut e.g. Manchester Pullman with a Mk1 KRB and Mk3 RUB, and the Yorkshire and TT Pullmans with two RFMs when the Mk4s came in. From comments when often I visited KX east side offices in 1989/90 it was the demand for breakasts rather than evening meals which was the deciding factor, at least on the ECML. It was the combination of increased frequency e.g. every 20 min from Leeds in the peak, and changed eating habits in First which spread the demand through several trains and then swicthed from full breakfasts to snacks which finally killed of the business case for dedicated sets. The benefit of having cosnsitent and standard 'do all sets' was greater than any increase in revenue from a premium service.

[D1059]

Anyone remember the infamous England v Scotland match at Wembley - 1977 or 78 I think ? ISTR a tale of the bar running dry and being restocked 3 times en route from Edinburgh - Kings Cross.

 

 

STEVE

[The Stationmaster]

There were occasions when that happened but rolling stock utilisation in the 1970s meant that usually a rake was left in the platform to form its next service. Exceptions occurred when external cleaning or servicing were required of course and in many locations overnight. During quieter parts of the day trains arriving at London terminals were taken out to be washed for example and returned for a later down working. Buffet cars were on the whole still serviced in the platforms and not in a depot or sidings. Aside from the logistics of transporting food to a fan of railway sidings there is the issue of safely lifting it from ground level (in many locations) into and out of the vehicles.

A far bigger problem than safety was security - stock tended to go walkies if left untended for more than minute or two, especially if spirits were involved.

 

BTW something Rick has mentioned remlnded me of another dodge which was transferring stock from one car to another enroute. This was not a very popular manoeuvre as it was probably hard work but if a car was coming out for maintenance and there was limited time in the diagram to destock it the replacement car would be marshalled next to it in its normal daily working and stock would be gradually transferred over the day. By the 1970s I think this was pretty rare but our RHQ passenger rolling stock man did do it occasionally and still manage to stay friends with people so that would definitely have meant (from the dates of my job moves) that it was still happening in 1971.