West Kirby Town: narrow gauge is coming to town.

[Barnaby]

Sorry Rod but my earlier reply seems to have got lost?

 

Anyway thanks for the show-me-pics of your ballasting.

 

I'm about to start mine and I've been doing some tests substituting copydex for the PVA as this makes for a more deadening mixture.  My test trials show it to be a bit more tricky to remove off the sleepers and to drill holes through.  If you cut a X with a knife drilling works ok but if you forget you'll wind all the ballast and copydex mixture around the drill bit.

I'm also laying my ballast directly onto the 9mm birch ply baseboard as adding cork of foam underlay really doesn't do anything for sound deadening.

I'll add some foam or similar underneath the baseboard as that seems to be the better way.

 

Regards

Edited August 24, 2013 by Barnaby

[pwr]

Your signals look good sir

 

Paul R

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Another update - and more progress!!  All to do with the signalling.  As I said previously, I'd fitted all of the internal signals in place (there are still 2 to do outside) so next it was time to get them working.  They all use small servos and I've decided to control them with GF Controls boards (no connection other than as a satisfied user).  I've done a number, so here are some pics before I describe the trials and tribulations that the setting up involved!!

 

The control board operates the signal movement only, the lighting is on a completely separate circuit.

 

The first shows signal 16 cleared for a departure from Platform 2:  (sorry about the tilt on the camera - the post is actually vertical!!)

 

 

The next shows the Inner Home signal with the lights (other than the ground signal) on, together with the double ground signal on the Up line.  The lower signal there is slightly out of true - it looks OK on the layout - it's the close up pics that show the faults!!  I've since adjusted it!!

 

 

Next we have signal 36 cleared for a DMU to approach the platforms.  There is another (no.34) to pass before access is gained to the platforms:

 

 

Finally (for this bit) we have the Inner Home signal, with no. 43 cleared for entry into an already part-occupied Platform 1:

 

 

Now for the trials and tribulations!  The control boards I am using have a facility to show a hesitation when the arm is being cleared and a bounce when they return to danger.  With this facility turned off, the clearing is slower than the return to danger.  I set up the double ground signal on the Up line first (2nd photo above).  This seemed to work OK so I then set to on the platform starters on the bracket.  I got them working, except that they bounced going up and hesitated coming down!!  I tried altering around wires on the control board but that made no difference.  So I emailed Jon the Builder who pointed out that I'd probably got my open and closed circuits back to front.  I had!!  I had set the switches up in the way I've always set up on/off switches: in the up position, the circuit is open so the device is off, in the down position the circuit is closed, so the device operates.  Not with these control boards!

 

On these boards, when the signal is in the danger position (and the switch up), the circuit is closed whereas I had it open.  However, I had adjusted the electronics so that the signal was at danger in the open position and vice versa.  So when I thought I was clearing the signal, the control boards thought I was returning it to danger and bounced it!!  Altering the wiring on the switches cured that and then I had to reset the signal arm position on the board but that caused me no problem.  Lesson learnt the hard way.  The instructions are quite clear about this, and I read them but either it didn't go in or I just didn't pay proper attention - I'm not sure which.  Then I reset the double ground signal.

 

Setting the Inner Home would then be easy - I thought!!!

 

This close-up of part of the signal box diagram sets the scene:

 

 

Levers 37 and 38 control the movement of the main arm for entry into the platforms, levers 42 and 43 control the calling-on arm for movement into either platform when it is already partly occupied.  However, levers 37 and 42 control the theatre indicator to show platform 2 and 38 and 43 to show platform 1.

 

So, using the same thinking as above, I wired the levers for 37/38, and then 42/43 in parallel and the signals would not clear!!!  No matter what I did!!  I checked the wiring - no problem.  I checked the switches - no problem.  I checked for power - no problem.  So it had to be the circuit:  I drew numerous circuit diagrams until, after 2 to 3 hours it struck me - in a blinding flash of light!!  Because the circuits were closed when the signal was at danger, in parallel one would always be closed, so they would never move.  Answer?  Wire them in series - problem solved!!  If both were at danger, the complete circuit was closed so the signals stayed at danger.  Operate one switch, the circuit becomes open and the relevant signal clears.  Did I breathe a big sigh of relief!!  The next pic is of levers 37 and 38 finally wired in series: 

 

 

42/43 are now wired the same way.  However, the lighting operates differently: in that case, the switch being up means the lights are turned off, down is on.  I used DPDT switches, with one pole operating the signal arm, the other the lighting.  So I wired 37/42 lights in parallel and 38/43 lights the same.  This is a pic showing the wiring.  The green wires are for signal arm operating, the white for signal lighting:

 

 

The close up is cruel on the soldering, but it looks OK inside the panel and it works properly. 

 

I hope I've managed to explain this fairly clearly.  I've read it and re-read it - I even got my open and closed mixed up at one stage, but if you find it edited later on, you'll know I probably made a mistake!!

 

What I have found, though, is that having a signal box diagram and having properly working signalling adds a completely new dimension to operating the layout.  I am not only driving the trains, but also being a signaller, too.  It's really fascinating - and challenging, until I get really familiar with the levers for each route.  I check the diagram for the correct point levers, then for the signal levers and finally do a visual check for the physical settings.  And I do not intend to make this automatic, via DCC: it's much too enjoyable!!

 

More soon.

 

Rod

[pwr]

Rod

 

Have you got and pix of the servos and control boards as I might be interested for Black Notley. Is there a web site?

 

regards

 

Paul

[Dmudriver]

Rod

 

Have you got and pix of the servos and control boards as I might be interested for Black Notley. Is there a web site?

 

regards

 

Paul

Hi Paul.

 

This is the address of the GF Controls website:

 

http://www.gfcontrols.co.uk/

 

I'll get some pics shortly for you.

 

 

Rod

 

Edit:  PS  I use the dual signal control, not the 8-way one.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Dmudriver

[Jon Fitness]

Hi Rod,

Sounds like you've had some fun setting them up as well as using them! On our layout (Saltney) I added a further touch of character by operating the signals from a MSE brass lever frame fitted with microswitches. Only thing that had me stumped for a while was trying to use a relay to select signals from the route set by the points. I learnt the hard way not to involve relays with servos as the current spike through the relays gave the servos a right kick and bent the operating rods!

Looking forward to some videos Rod!!

Cheers

JF

[Dmudriver]

Hi Jon.

 

I did think about using a lever frame when I was planning the layout but decided against it.  The switches, particularly in their frame, give a good enough representation for me.

 

Your comment about relays concerns me slightly as I have been thinking that, eventually, I'd like to interlock the signals with the points.  I had thought that the way to do it would be with relays but you've now got me really wondering.  In the past, with solenoid operated points, I've built diode matrices but those wouldn't work with servos - or would they?  I need to give this a lot more thought and undertake a fair bit of investigation.

 

I would like to put some videos on here but I'm not sure how to do it.  I'm sure there's been advice on doing it, but can anyone point me in the direction of the relevant thread, please?

 

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

HI all.

 

It's been a while (again!) but things have been happening.  I've set up a couple more ground signals but then got laid low by a nasty tooth infection that started as toothache on the way home from Telford and ended up with an extraction today!!  Not at all pleasant!  However, that's behind me and now modelling can continue.  I've another control board wired up ready for setting up and, as I've got a spare ground signal, I'm going to repaint the red stripe yellow and use it on the headshunt into the DMU stabling point.  More to follow on that one.

 

The main changes have been on the stock front.  I sold the green 128 at Telford:  I had thought about repainting it into blue, but it was such a good model I preferred to sell it rather than change it.  The replacement is going to be a Class 131.  The class 131 consisted of 3 vehicles - Class 122s which were transferred to Scotland and converted into parcels units by adding a second set of double doors and removing all the seats.  This is a pic of one:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/blue-diesels/3730999855/

 

Shawn at Easybuild is working on cutting a pair of sides for me and then supplying a 122 kit - minus seats!!  I'm also tempted by a 133 set - 2 x 116 power cars with 2 x GUVs in between - but that's a bit more long term!!

 

I've sold my Ivatt tank - for no more reason than it was a loco I just couldn't get on with.  It ran fine on DC, but put a chip in it and it gave all sorts of problems.  I tried loads of remedies but in the end decided "you and I don't get on, it's time for you to move on"!!!  At the moment the push-pull stock is powered by the 31 but whether that will continue is a decision for later.  Ideally, I'd like a new Ivatt, but again, that's long term.  There was a nice one on the second hand stand at Telford but I just got beaten to it!!

 

There is an addition to the stock, however: I picked up my Thumper at Telford.  I've been running it in and I've fitted a couple of speakers to replace the one that was in it and I'm really pleased with it.  I'm going to get a single bass speaker for it - just to emphasize the "thump".  Here's a couple of pics of it in one of the carriage sidings on the layout:

 

 

Yes, that is a window missing on the 115 - it's fallen inside and I'll refit it shortly - when I do the lights and fit the sound chips.

 

 

I am very, very tempted to get a centre car for the Thumper also.  As far as I know, they only ran as 3 cars in blue and grey, but for the moment the story is that the centre car is undergoing repairs!!

 

Finally a pic of all the multiple units in the station area:

 

 

The 31 and the 3 push pull coaches are on the rear carriage siding. 

 

So, now I'm back in modelling mode, more soon.

 

Rod

 

 

 

[David Siddall]

That is one awfully nice looking 'Thumper' Rod – some models just totally 'look' like their real life counterparts don't they?

 

Easybuild's DMU window glazing units definitely seems to need a bit of help despite their tight almost 'press-fit' nature (he says from recent experience)... I went for 'Micro Kristal Klear' in its role as an adhesive in an attempt to keep things secure whilst avoiding the risk of messing up the glazing. It seems to have worked pretty well on the 50% of my 121 I've completed so far.

 

I'm intrigued by 131s and 133s... look forward to seeing both in due course :-)

 

David

[Dmudriver]

That is one awfully nice looking 'Thumper' Rod – some models just totally 'look' like their real life counterparts don't they?

 

Easybuild's DMU window glazing units definitely seems to need a bit of help despite their tight almost 'press-fit' nature (he says from recent experience)... I went for 'Micro Kristal Klear' in its role as an adhesive in an attempt to keep things secure whilst avoiding the risk of messing up the glazing. It seems to have worked pretty well on the 50% of my 121 I've completed so far.

 

I'm intrigued by 131s and 133s... look forward to seeing both in due course :-)

 

David

 

The Thumper is a Peter Clarke kit, David, built by Peter Clarke himself.  I've only ever seen one "in the flesh" - preserved on the East Lancs Railway.  However, it does look just like the pictures and, as I've already said, I'm really pleased with it.

 

I'm going to use the same Kristal Klear to hold the errant windows in in the 115, but if you think Easybuild windows are not too good, you've not tried Heljan!!  In my experience the slightest pressure has them dropping in!!  And then getting the roof off is another problem (I'm talking about the coaches here).

 

As regards the 133, I'm going to have to do some more research:  some 116s just had the seats taken out and ran as 2-car sets, labelled "Parcels Service" and seemed to have been reclassified 130.  I suspect that with the GUVs in between, there were alterations to brakes, air and electrics fittings, so maybe these were 133s.  Anyone else got any ideas?

 

Is the roof on the Easybuild 121/122 fitted on by bolts through the floor?  If so, I'm going to have a problem if I paint the windows white as I won't be able to see where the bolt is going!!  I've time to think about a solution to that one, though!!

 

Rod

[pwr]

Rod you should definitely get the centre car. This model really looks the part.

 

Paul R

[Dmudriver]

Rod you should definitely get the centre car. This model really looks the part.

 

Paul R

Hi Paul.

 

I've done it!!  I rang Peter Clark on Friday and ordered it!!

 

 

Rod

[NSE DAZ]

Rod this is fantastic what a stunning line up  , love the Thumper I also have a 3 car on order with Peter Clark looking forward to receiving her 

 

Keep up the good work,

 

All the best Darren NSE DAZ

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Some more work done!!  I've installed another ground signal to protect the exit from the DMU stabling point headshunt and wired it up, together with signal 25 for the siding alongside.  This is a pic of it:

 

 

It is deliberately yellow so that it doesn't have to be cleared every time a shunting movement into the stabling sidings takes place.  It was originally a red one, but I scraped the red paint off and added the yellow.  The only problem is that I couldn't change the spectacle plate so, although I've put yellow paint on it, when lit it looks more blood orange than yellow orange!!  The camera doesn't show the colour too well, however!!

 

Next is a pic with the same signal in the clear position.  As I didn't want to put another switch onto the panel and also, as the signal box diagram doesn't show the signal either, I've wired it to operate when the point is changed. I have a feeling that's prototypical, if not very common, with some ground signals.  I've wired the signal into one of the microswitches on the Tortoise point motor, using just one terminal to create a closed circuit when the point is in the normal position to therefore hold the signal in the "on" position.

 

 

Finally, a view of all the signals protecting exit from the platforms and sidings.  There's now 2 more ground signals to wire up inside the shed - no. 30 situated at the Inner Home signal and no.36 protecting access from the Up Line to the platforms and no. 2 siding.  Those are tomorrow or Friday's jobs.  Following those I need to fit the 2 outer signals (on the outside extension) but I'm not hurrying that job.

 

 

I bought some speed restriction signs at Telford and those will appear shortly.

 

I'm well impressed with the GF control boards (no connection, etc).  Once I'd learned from my early mistakes I've found they're quite easy to fit and set up.  

 

However, I also bought at Telford a couple of Minx Microdrives for one of the Club's layouts that I'm working on.  Very nice and compact motors (actuators) and a similar control board to GF's: note "similar" - not the same!!  I read the instructions (as I did with the GF boards) but, again, not well enough and couldn't get them to work!!  I've since worked out where I went wrong but I let myself be influenced by how the GF ones work!!  So now I'll go back tomorrow or Friday to get the actuators working before the next Club night!!  I'm still learning - even at my age!!!

 

If there's interest I can give my views on the Minxes once they're installed, but I'd likely start a new thread.

 

More soon.

 

Rod

[pwr]

Hi Paul.

 

I've done it!!  I rang Peter Clark on Friday and ordered it!!

 

 

Rod

 

 

 

Rod

 

Glad to hear it. Unfortunately I wont be buying anything any time soon as I just lost my job. Had to cancel the Heljan Western and I am gutted. Having to have a dose of austerity in the household budget now. Its a good job RMWeb is free! 

 

Paul R

Edited October 4, 2013 by pwr

[Dmudriver]

Rod

 

Glad to hear it. Unfortunately I wont be buying anything any time soon as I just lost my job. Had to cancel the Heljan Western and I am gutted. Having to have a dose of austerity in the household budget now. Its a good job RMWeb is free! 

 

Paul R

Hi Paul.  Sorry to hear about your job situation.  From experience I can say don't give up hope - keep looking.  In the meantime, as you say, RMweb is free - enjoy that!

 

Rod

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

More progress on the layout.  This time I've got ground signals 30 and 34 wired up and operating and I've also fitted 4 speed restriction signs.  So, on the basis that pictures are worth ?how many? words, here are some.  The first shows the Thumper about to leave the stabling point headshunt: although you can't see them all on the photo, the road is set all the way to behind the double ground signal on the Up line:

 

 

That picture, by the way, was taken before the speed restriction signs were planted!!  Once behind that signal, this is the view the second man gets from the track once the road has been set - for some reason, the driver sent him to speak to the signaller as the phone isn't fitted yet!!

 

 

This is one of the speed restriction signs and is copied from the actual location. As the train moves towards the station, it approaches signal 34 which is cleared for one of the 3 routes - either platform or No 2 siding - in this case the points are set for platform 2. 

 

 

The location of the restriction sign on the Down line (left) is again copied from the actual but the photo I have shows a double headed arrow: as there wasn't one on the fret, I've used 2 - prototypical, I'm sure.

 

With departure time approaching [i'm getting a bit carried away, aren't I????] the road is set for the Thumper:

 

 

The third new sign is at the end of the platform.  Again, the location is copied from the actual, but I've no decent photos of the sign.  A couple I've seen seem to indicate that there are arrows pointing each way: if that's correct, I'm confused as I thought all movements (shunting or not) were onto the Up line from the platforms.  Anyway, that's the way I plan to operate it, so I've set the restriction to just show the left route.

 

As the train leaves the platform and clears the crossover and point 22, the line speed rises to 50 mph.  Cue picture: (actually taken by the second man on his way back from the box to the train!!)

 

 

Again, on the real thing, the sign here is 60, but as the wasn't a 60 on the fret, I used this!  However, the location is correct.  I've said it earlier on in this thread, if I remember correctly, that I'm not trying to build a scale model of the station, but to capture the flavour of it so that anyone who knows the place will recognise it.

 

Finally, I said I'd got signal no 30 working and this is a pic of it in the clear position.  The lights are turned off deliberately: the ambient light in the shed was not good and the signal lights were showing too brightly.

 

 

The main arm is drooping a bit but I didn't notice until I looked at the photo - probably got slightly misadjusted when I had the signal out working on no. 30.  I've since adjusted it!!

 

So that's progress up to now.  What's next?  I've yet to make my mind up!  I need to buy some ballast and lay that and start fitting the platform - I'm aiming to use Crossinggate parts - I saw them at Telford and was very impressed - but I've not ordered them yet.  Then there's lights and destination blinds to fit to the 115, ready for Warrington Show in a couple of weeks' time.

 

Plenty to do and I'll update when I've made more progress.

 

Rod

 

PS    I've just noticed that there's no lights on the double signal in the 2nd photo even though the following one is showing green.  I've just been to the shed to check, waggled a couple of wires around and got them working!!  A loose connection somewhere - I'll sort it eventually!!

 

 

 

 

[two tone green]

Amazing. Everytime I see an update on your progress and on Steves Canton layout I want to rush home and do things on my layout only to get home and be distracted by something else. Envious, very envious.

 

Keep them coming, eventually one update from you will actually result in me doing something.

[Ressaldar]

Hi Rod,

 

nice work, keep it up.

 

cheers

 

Mike

[pwr]

Its amazing how the signals make this layout come alive

 

Paul R

[81A Oldoak]

Its amazing how the signals make this layout come alive

 

Paul R

There are very few things that breath life more effectively into a layout than working semaphore signals. First class job. 

[Indomitable026]

Sorry to trouble and apologies if I've missed it but what make are the signals?

[Jon Fitness]

Sorry to trouble and apologies if I've missed it but what make are the signals?

JF

[Dmudriver]

Hi all.

 

Sorry to have not replied sooner - was at the Barrow show all weekend with Oldham King Street Parcels.  Good show - really enjoyed the weekend.

 

Anyway, back to signals!!  As Jon has indicated by his "smiley" above, he made all the signals for me.  He described the building on his thread "My 7mm Signals Bench" - see his signature above for the link.  The first comment is at post 266, but the main description is from post 281 to about 340.

 

I agree wholeheartedly with Chris's comment above about working semaphore signals breathing life into a layout and, although I've said it before, I'll say it again, Jon has done a superb job.  The problem is that now I've got the points and signals working properly, I just want to play  sorry, operate!!

 

I don't think I'll get too much more done on the layout this week as I'm at Warrington next weekend with Apethorne Junction and I've a few things to get ready, maintain, etc. but who knows!! 

 

More soon.

 

Rod

[beast66606]

  A couple I've seen seem to indicate that there are arrows pointing each way: if that's correct, I'm confused as I thought all movements (shunting or not) were onto the Up line from the platforms.  Anyway, that's the way I plan to operate it, so I've set the restriction to just show the left route.

The main arm is drooping a bit but I didn't notice until I looked at the photo - probably got slightly misadjusted when I had the signal out working on no. 30.  I've since adjusted it!!

 

 

The double arrows on the PSR sign mean apply to both platform lines (approaching the signal) as opposed to the up / down beyond the signal - there was no wrong line shunt at WK.

 

I've seen (U/Q) prototypes droop more than your signal !