Earl Bathurst Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi I currently have an ECoS controller and have chipped some of my locos. I have had a few problem as of late and not sure if i shoudl stick with dcc or move back to dc. What do you think i should do, any advise would be great, in a bit of a pickle at the moment Thanks Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi I currently have an ECoS controller and have chipped some of my locos. I have had a few problem as of late and not sure if i shoudl stick with dcc or move back to dc. What do you think i should do, any advise would be great, in a bit of a pickle at the moment Thanks Without knowing what your problems are it's difficult to advise you one way or the other. As most people posting in this section are DCC converts I guess you would get the advise to stick with it. That's what would do. Can you be more specific? You also seem to have multiple posts of the same thing!!!! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Just has probelm with running and programing. Not sure where im going wrong. I will prb stick with dcc but wanted to knwo what are the pros and cons of both? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 10, 2012 If you tell us on what the problems are we might be able to help you with them. You have a very powerful piece of kit with the ECoS, I have got both the original and colour version, and it would a shame not to realise it's full potential. Regards, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Try wiring up an analogue DC controller instead and see what you think. Unless it is a very sophisticated controller, I would expect the coarseness of control to be quite a disappointment after you have got used to the smoothness of DCC. However, it is a case of 'horses for courses'. Only you (the OP) can say whether you will be happier with DC rather than DCC. If you are experiencing electrical problems, they would probably affect analogue as well as DCC running, at least to some degree. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 10, 2012 I know it is a long way but if you fancy a trip to Manchester on either 19th/20th May to our Exhibition at the Museum of Transport Manchester there will be a wealth of DCC knowledge who would be more than happy to help you and you would be more than welcome to bring your kit along and we will be happy to help in anyway we can. Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi Peter To be honest i would benefit in someone showing me what the ECoS can do and how to use it fully. What has really put me off is using cobalt point motors and the esu switch pilot becasue they aint been that successful. Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sheardown Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi again Scott, You sound really frustrated, and I guess you're probably wrestling with some manual or other that just doesn’t seem to make sense??!! I don’t know if this is the case, but when I first started with DCC, I found it a very steep learning curve, and the manuals supplied by various manufacturers were invariably unhelpful and difficult to understand!! However, I do think that DCC is very much worth sticking with, as it has so much to offer in terms of prototypical operation, sound, computer control, improved slow running etc, etc, etc. You’ve also got loads of support on here, so my advice would be to stick with it. Very Best wishes!!! Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi peter i might take you up on that offer if i aint got anything on that weekend. Thanks for the kind offer I would benifit from any help. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi Scott, I bought the ESU Switch Pilot thinking they would control Tortoise point motors but I seem to remember the Switch Pilot wasn't designed for the slow motion type point motors such as the Tortoise or Cobalt, I could be wrong on this and stand to be corrected, I ended up going back to the Lenz LS150's and despite an initial problem they have worked fine ever since. On my first layout Rederring I use an ECoS with Tortoise and Cobalt points operating using a LS150's. The problem I had was that the Tortoise motors would throw perfectly with my Lenz set 100 but not with the ECoS, I eventually discovered I needed to set the throw time on each output on the LS150 and the tortoises worked perfectly with the ECoS. Regards, Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sheardown Posted April 10, 2012 Share Posted April 10, 2012 Thanks for the info again mike, As you said im having a time of it at late and seem i cant do right for doing wrong. You'll get there Scott - but I know how f-----g frustrating it can be at times!!!! Step back and chill for a bit - it's a brilliant system and well worth sticking with!! Look how many people have piled in to help in the last hour - you're not alone!!! Best Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 10, 2012 Author Share Posted April 10, 2012 i know its been great all the help that what i like about this forum. I think if i wasnt a member here id have ripped the lot up tonight. As for the point motors im in 2 minds weathe nor not to go to seep and just control them the old way the only problem is you cant route set on the ECoS. Would seep motors work ok with the ECoS then? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Savoyard Posted April 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 10, 2012 Hi Scott, If you come up by train there is a free heritage bus service from Manchester Victoria Station. I will be running around like a headless chicken over the weekend but I will be spending time on my layout 'Holcombe Brook and Tottington' which I will be running with either my Lenz system or ECoS along with TouchCab, a great piece of software that gives you a wireless throttle. If you do make it to the exhibition you will be more than welcome to have a play in a live environment and hopefully you will be convinced DCC is OK. I will have both controllers so I will be able to easily switch between the two. Holcombe Brook & Tottington is Railway of the Month in the May issue of Railway modeller, the article was written by the previous owners and I am currently in the process of making it completly DCC friendly, getting rid of all those uneccessary blcok sections in DCC! The joy of just being able to select the loco I want to run and not worry about switching sections on to make it move!! Peter Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sheardown Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 i know its been great all the help that what i like about this forum. I think if i wasnt a member here id have ripped the lot up tonight. As for the point motors im in 2 minds weathe nor not to go to seep and just control them the old way the only problem is you cant route set on the ECoS. Would seep motors work ok with the ECoS then? Hi Scott, Take a break for a bit, and then come back tomorrow with a clear description of what's going wrong with your point motors - I'm sure the good folk on here will pile in and help you sort it. Best wishes Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Max Stafford Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I suppose it depends what kind of era you operate and what you expect from your layout. As a 1950s/60s era modeller, I've decided that I have no real need of DCC as I have no need of lighting functions or sound which I'm largely unsold on in any case. With all that in mind, I myself will be parting with my Dynamis and Pro Box which have seen no use other than to test a sound model once! Dave. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldknotty Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I went back to Dc after a dabble in DCC i was not happy with either so I keep one track for my DCC and one one for my DC with separate controllers and i switched from a lenz system to a very simple easy to use DC system from NCE I love it best of both worlds :-) I am about to redo my layout to make it a bit bigger and easier for this old man to work on :-) martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
brian777999 Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 How many others have gone back to DC and why ? As somebody who is still contemplating moving to DCC, I find this topic very interesting. I am hoping that DCC will give me greater control at VERY slow speeds. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gordon A Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I would persevere with DCC as the flexibility and simplicity of operation outweighs that of DC. I think we all get a few problems to start with. All should be solveable by asking the questions of other people (including on here), ECoS or the chip manufacturer. Gordon A Bristol Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 How many others have gone back to DC and why ? As somebody who is still contemplating moving to DCC, I find this topic very interesting. I am hoping that DCC will give me greater control at VERY slow speeds. Slow speed control isn't "dead simple", there are a lot of things which influence whether DC or DCC might be better. On the DC side; for optimal control you need to match the type of controller to the motor and gearing in the model. Even without careful matching, there are different qualities in DC controllers, my old Pentroller (no longer available) is head and shoulders better than other DC controllers I've owned. There will be other DC controllers available today which give excellent running. On the DCC side; the advantage that DCC offers is that the control of the motor is in a very small circuit, and feedback from the motor to the chip is effective. Thus, the controller (the DCC chip) is able to adjust its output precisely to match the behaviour of the motor. At least that's the theory. In practise it works, but for optimal low speed control its still necessary to match the DCC chip to the motor; this is a mixture of settings in the chip ("programming CV values") and also selecting the right chip for the model in question. Some chips will work better in some models or with some motors, and the difference can be huge; I measured a greater than 10-fold difference in bottom motor speed between different chips when I was evaluating whether to convert my 2mm scratchbuilt locos, many chips were worse than my DC control, but a couple of makers were significantly better, so that made the case. Your models are probably not the same as mine, but the principle stands. There is also the issue of track voltage; some argue that having a constant circa 14v on the track gives better electrical transmission into the model than variable 0-12v DC. Finally, there is an option in (some) DCC chips to add energy storage capacitors. These will keep the chip running for a fraction of a second if there is a fluctuation in the supply current from the track (microscopic bits of dirt interupting supply). They do work, and the improvement in slow running can be significant. But, for many they are not really a magic solution - they are needed most on small 0-4-0's due to only four wheels for pickup, and those small locos are usually lacking in space to house the capacitors. It can be done, it can work really well, but I find it easier to design in the energy storage capacitors when building a loco from kit or scratch than to push them into small commercially available locos. Overall, yes you can get better slow speed control on DCC, but its not automatic. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 The problem im having is when im running my locos im having trouble with them stalling or the sound locos re starting. The track is clean and the contacts look fine to the track, the only thing i can think of is the points as i have mentioned on previous occasions. I am very tempted to use seep point motors and the esu switch pilot and see how that works. And i find programming my locos on ECoS can sometimes be a pain. I know dcc is alot easier with regards wiring (i think ive just had so much bad luck of late making me consider the controls) Once again thanks for all the help everyone Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenton Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 I'm a bit on the fence with this one. I probably used to be more anti-DCC than I am now. But that does not put me in the DCC converted camp. Indeed far from it. For me it really all comes down to what advantages that are really offered in DCC - most of those REAL advantages, sound, lights I find are pure gimicks and not for me. But if that is what you like on your layout then it almost has to be DCC. Slow running is easy on DCC but I find it fiddly and just as good on DC so there is no win on that one. If your layout is a "1 engine in steam" then DC does the job. But I have a layout where there are several locos present and the flexibility of DCC is a real bonus. Then there is the not insubstantial factor of cost. So would I "go back" to DC. No, not on the layout where I see DCC as an advantage. Would I still consider DC for a new layout. Of course, it is simpler, cheaper and can do everything I require of it. But I wouldn't rule out DCC either. Both are good but I would not be a slave to either just because one system offers things that are unwanted or difficult (like section breaks) It just sounds like you need to go through the process again of justifying why you went DCC in the first place. Was it a case of simply going with the crowd or was it because it offered clear indisputable benefits on your layout? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Oldddudders Posted April 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2012 The problem im having is when im running my locos im having trouble with them stalling or the sound locos re starting. The track is clean and the contacts look fine to the track, the only thing i can think of is the points as i have mentioned on previous occasions. I am very tempted to use seep point motors and the esu switch pilot and see how that works. Yes, been there and hated that - sound locos that die and restart with a substantial loss of realism, I mean. And it is almost always on points, so giving them attention can only be beneficial - but then that applies to DC layouts too. Electrical continuity is what every model railway needs - and 99% isn't good enough. But the use of Seep - or anyone's - point motor will not directly affect the continuity. If your points are dead-frog, there will always be a bit of electrically-inert plastic, and short wheelbase locos will always struggle at low speeds, i.e. the way we want to operate in the station throat, sidings etc. If your points are live-frog, then making sure the feeds to each frog are continuous is well worth doing, and here certain point motors can help, by automatically switching polarity. My point (sorry) is that the symptoms you identify are not actually part of the DCC system - although those pesky delicate sound-decoders do show them up more vividly - but are part of the layout wiring. Simply changing back to DC isn't gonna improve that in any way. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Earl Bathurst's problem seems to lie on the point control side. I don't own an ECoS or use ESU Switch Pilots, but for what its' worth..... The home layout uses Tortoises with one Cobalt Blue (and a Hoffmann because that was all I could get into one spot). I have had good operation of the Tortoises and Cobalt using NCE Switch-Its, a Digitrax DS64 and a MERG decoder kit (stall motor version) . On a club project we used Lenz LS150s with a different design of motor which is not stall . The LS150 cuts off the opower after a definable perion (think up to a couple of seconds ) After that there is no current to hold the point blades in place - on a proper stall motor decoder there is a continuous current and the motors stall at the position of maximum travel. However I've spoken to people who have used LS150s with Tortoises and they reported that this was very rarely an issue The DS64 is an expensive and sophisticated decoder with lots of features I don't use , and frankly a bit of a sledgehammer to crack a nut. But it works , and it can be set for stall motors or solenoids, it will draw power from the track, or from a seperate auxillary supply (though I'm told 16V AC will blow it up, despite what the instructions say, and I use 12V DC from a regulated supply) . The MERG kit is cheap (under £3 per output) though you need to be a member to buy it and you then have to build it. I had not attempted any electronics project since school (and they didn't often work when I was at school) - I built one entirely successfully, though it wasn't a quick process. They run off a seperate 16V AC supply with a data connection to the rails Both the MERG decoders and (I'm told) LS150s are very vulnerable to loco programming signals and any programminmg on the main is likely to scramble the accessory decoder settings. The NCE Switch-Its seem very much more robust in this respect . The Switch-Its draw their power from the track - with a Powercab and a very limited amount of amps I thought that was a bad idea for me, which is why I changed There are other accessory decoders out there. My instinct would be to change the decoders to suit the point motors , not to change the motors to suit the decoder. Tortoises are about £12 a go , Cobalt Blues slightly more - whereas decoders shouldn't be much more than £7 per output, and you can generally fire a crossover off a single output (Though I think both the Digitrax DS64 and the LS150 are more than that - the LS150s are getting pricy) . The NCE Switch-it has one advantage - with only 2 outputs compared with 6 on an LS150 you don't waste money on outputs you don't use . They do a Switch8 for Tortoise/Cobalt motors - that is just over £5 per output, but only if you use all 8 outputs..... The ESU switchpilot does not seem to be described as for stall motors, and this may be part of the problem Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The problem im having is when im running my locos im having trouble with them stalling or the sound locos re starting. The track is clean and the contacts look fine to the track, the only thing i can think of is the points as i have mentioned on previous occasions... There is the internal loco circuit to consider too. From making sure that the wipers are always in contact with the wheelbacks to making soldered joints where the manufacturer depends on face contacts or clip on connectors can make a significant difference. Although there have been some happy exceptions more recently, much of the China produced OO is best regarded as an imperfectly assembled kit of parts that will repay being 'gone over' by the owner who wants the best performance potential offered by the kit of parts. ... And i find programming my locos on ECoS can sometimes be a pain ... There are (cheaper) alternatives that might prove more user friendly for you. The ECoS strikes me as a system for system's sake. Why look at a screen instead of your model trains? (Might as well do it all in software simulation if looking at a screen is appealing.) All that said, have you made the investment of time in becoming truly proficient with the ECoS? I spent a good two weeks of evenings doing nothing but operate my first two decoder equipped locos with the system, trying out all the options and then repeatedly practicing those I wanted to use until this became an activity in which I was close to unconciously competent; just like other real life activities such as driving a car. Once operation doesn't really have to be conciously thought about it, all becomes much easier. ...I am very tempted to use seep point motors and the esu switch pilot and see how that works ... Is automated route setting (whether or not through the DCC system) absolutely a requirement? With the best will in the world DCC is excellent for moving object control, OTT in current form for route control. An analogue diagram of route is what the human being can comprehend intuitively, and with the objects to be controlled fixed in position the use of a system designed to overcome the problem of moving object control is overkill when a hardwired connection does the job. Make a mimic board for point control, and leave DCC out of the loop... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sheardown Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The problem im having is when im running my locos im having trouble with them stalling or the sound locos re starting. The track is clean and the contacts look fine to the track, the only thing i can think of is the points as i have mentioned on previous occasions. I am very tempted to use seep point motors and the esu switch pilot and see how that works. And i find programming my locos on ECoS can sometimes be a pain. I know dcc is alot easier with regards wiring (i think ive just had so much bad luck of late making me consider the controls) Once again thanks for all the help everyone Hi Scott, The problem you're having with locos stalling and then re-starting is as Ian (Olddudders) says, there is a break in current supply to the loco. There are only 2 reasons why this could be happening, (1) current to the track is failing; (2) the loco is not picking up consistently. To trouble shoot (1) - buy yourself a cheap electricians screwdriver from Maplins for a couple of quid (you know, the type with a wire and crocodile clip coming out of the handle, and the handle lights up when you have a circuit). Now you can test all your trackwork and points to see if there are any faults. Are your point's switch rails hard wired to the stock rails, and the frogs isolated from same with a changing polarity supplied by your cobalt motor?? If not, I strongly advise doing this as otherwise you'll always have problems with poor supply through the point. This is because they'll be relying on switch blade contact with the stock rail and dirt or only light contact can cause this to fail when a loco passes over them. Test this with your electricians screwdriver too by gently waggling the switch blade to simulate a loco. If (1) above is ok, then the fault can only be (2) i.e. poor pick up. To trouble shoot this, first, make sure all track is clean (use a liquid track cleaner or meths - rubber track cleaners leave deposits which can cause problems), then move on to the wheels of a locomotive (just start with one). Again, use a liquid track cleaner with a cotton bud, and make sure you also clean the inside/back of wheels if this is where the contacts pick up from. You'll have to keep running the loco forward 1/4 turn to get to all surfaces. Now retry the loco, and if it still stalls, it must be the actual contacts themselves loosing contact with the wheel, or, the wheels loosing contact with the track. For the latter, check that the track is level, and for the former, take the body off the loco and have a good look at the way the contacts rub on the wheels, and whether they maintain contact if you wiggle the axle back and forth. If they do loose contact, adjust if possible, and/or you may also want to add more pick-ups. Sorry if all this sounds really tedious and time consuming, but it's simply a logical way of working through the problem, and it will enable you to be clear about exactly what the problem is. Good luck with it Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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