RMweb Gold beast66606 Posted April 11, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 11, 2012 With the best will in the world DCC is excellent for moving object control, OTT in current form for route control. An analogue diagram of route is what the human being can comprehend intuitively, and with the objects to be controlled fixed in position the use of a system designed to overcome the problem of moving object control is overkill when a hardwired connection does the job. Make a mimic board for point control, and leave DCC out of the loop... Whilst this may be true for the OP, as a general comment it most certainly isn't. As has been already suggested, with the information currently to hand the problem's he is having are mostly to do with current collection from the track, and not specifically DCC related. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 The problem im having is when im running my locos im having trouble with them stalling or the sound locos re starting. This one catches out quite a few when first moving to sound loco's. What you think is nice smooth running with non sound loco's does sometimes mask the odd bad contact area but the momentum of the loco keeps it going unnoticed. Sound fitted loco's seem less resilient to this and go through the whole start-up procedure (including starting at speed step zero) when they encounter a momentary loss of power. However all is not lost, this function can be disabled by adjusting one of the CV's. On ESU Loksound 3.5 version fitted loco's setting CV124 to 6 should stop the start-up sequence re-initiating. Not sure what CV it is for other makes. Hope this helps. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelcliffe Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 This one catches out quite a few when first moving to sound loco's. What you think is nice smooth running with non sound loco's does sometimes mask the odd bad contact area but the momentum of the loco keeps it going unnoticed. Sound fitted loco's seem less resilient to this and go through the whole start-up procedure (including starting at speed step zero) when they encounter a momentary loss of power. However all is not lost, this function can be disabled by adjusting one of the CV's. On ESU Loksound fitted loco's setting CV124 to 6 should stop the start-up sequence re-initiating. Not sure what CV it is for other makes. Hope this helps. Your CV changing advice is fine for LokSound v3.5, but the documentation for LokSound v4 shows CV124 doing very different things and a value of 6 may have unwanted consequences. CV122=3 may achieve something similar in a V4, but I have not checked this thoroughly. - Nigel Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tender Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 Your CV changing advice is fine for LokSound v3.5, but the documentation for LokSound v4 shows CV124 doing very different things and a value of 6 may have unwanted consequences. CV122=3 may achieve something similar in a V4, but I have not checked this thoroughly. - Nigel Hi Nigel, thanks for pointing that out,all my loksounds are 3.5 version so haven't had cause to look at the version 4 manual yet. I've made the appropriate edit to my post. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted April 11, 2012 Share Posted April 11, 2012 It isn't clear from the information provided by the OP whether they asked for advice before purchasing DCC equipment or whether the advice has been misleading. Clearly there is a mismatch of equipment being used here, so I sincerely hope it wasn't any DCC supplier that provided any advice received! This situation does, though, highlight the importance of getting reliable advice before making any significant investment. I agree with Ravenser that it would be more sensible to ditch (i.e. sell) the Switchpilots for slow motion accessory decoder(s) to operate your Cobalt point motors. In addition to the accessory decoders mentioned by Ravenser there are also the AD4 from DCC Concepts and the Team Digital SMD84, the latter being able to create and use routes, which the OP specified as a requirement. I've scanned through the thread but I can't remember if the OP is using live frog points but if so, one further thing that needs to be done is to ensure that the wiring to the frog has been completed to enable switching of the frog power to eliminate shorts or dead sections. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 11, 2012 Author Share Posted April 11, 2012 Hi John Thanks for the advice. Dont like to say this but i actually did ask advice before i bought the equipment from the company (not naming) and now find its no good. Bit annoyed now. But would solonoid points work better with the esu switch pilot? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWG Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 The Switchpilot works with solenoid point motors. However it is not really designed for the currents required by Peco or Seep solenoids. Read the instruction booklet. There is a section (9.3 in my edition) which tells you how to change the overload setting to cope with Peco points. I believe that Seeps need an even higher current so are probably not suitable. To change to a crude device like a Seep when you have Cobalts, which are a top class product, seems in any case a pity. What you need is a Switchpilot extension, which contains relays that are switched in parallel with the Switchpilot outputs. With the Extension relay you change the polarity of the current to the Cobalt. Again it is explained in simple terms in the instructions (section 6.7.3) with a diagram. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 12, 2012 Author Share Posted April 12, 2012 Hi I have the extentions on the switch pilot for use with the cobalt point motors but i get a constant hum (very similar when you put a dc loco on to the track with dcc) I havent had much luck with these cobalt motors as of late. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TWG Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Do the Cobalts change the points or just sit there and hum? What electrical supply are you using for the Cobalts? Your description makes me wonder if you are using an a.c. or dcc input - this would produce the same effect as on a loco motor What voltage is the supply? I started with 12V DC but found 9V better (which is the manufacturer's recommended level). Too high a voltage can have unwanted side effects. Luck should not be required. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ravenser Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 My Cobalt runs on 12V DC - this is the output from all the accessory decoders I use. If the Switchpilots are throwing out AC - which they would do with solenoids - no wonder there's an issue . With LS150s and motor driven points it's necessary to wire a diode between each output and the motor. The diodes are wired in opposite directions - ie it's a crude rectifier arrangement I havent had much luck with these cobalt motors as of late. The problem I'm sure , is not the point motors but an unsuitable accessory decoder. I'd very strongly advise that you treat the point motor as the fixed item , and change the decoder to fit it , not the other way round. Trying to change motors fit a predetermined decoder is the wrong way to look at it. Two key issues - firstly unlike loco decoders , different types of accessory decoders are required for different types of point motor and accessory . Secondly (and in part flowing from the first) - it's not a good approach to "buy the brand" and stick with accessory decoders from the same company as the DCC system. Be ready to look at other options apart from ESU As a practical suggestion, get a single NCE Switch-It from Bromsgrove Models or another supplier. That will cost you £13 plus postage . In other words about the same price as a single slow motion point motor . It will drive 2 Tortoises /Cobalt Blues, and you can wire both motors of a crossover to one out put (so potentially you can use it to power up to 4 Tortioses) Connect the Switch It to the main DCC bus and swap over 2 or 3 tortioses from an ESU SwitchPilot to the NCE SwitchIt . If that cures the problems with those points , you have an answer... And your cost exposure while you try it is pretty small Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverlink Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 Hi Scott, for what its worth I would strongly recommend you take Peter up on his offer & visit the Manchester show after all it is geared towards DCC with many specialists on hand. All you need is one that uses the same system as you and I'm sure you'll be sorted. As for point motors I wouldn't touch Seeps with a barge pole! we had 30+ on our club layout & they were nothing bu trouble. I highly recommend Tortoise as I use them & they work great also there are quite a few people doing DCC control for these or the newer Cobalts. cheers silverlink PS for Peter 'Haymarket Cross' is in this months (May) Hornby magazine ! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BromsMods Posted April 12, 2012 Share Posted April 12, 2012 It will drive 2 Tortoises /Cobalt Blues, and you can wire both motors of a crossover to one out put (so potentially you can use it to power up to 4 Tortioses) Beware here - there is a limit of 40mA on each Switch-It output, so whilst you can try to run 2 x Tortoise motors from each output as suggested by Ravenser (though NCE don't guarantee this will work!) you can't do that with Cobalts as they have a higher current requirement, so you should only wire in 1 x Cobalt to each output. If you do and damage the Switch-It you will have invalidated any warranty. The same applies to the Switch-8. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike Sheardown Posted April 13, 2012 Share Posted April 13, 2012 Hi Scott, Sorry but I'm getting a bit confused. You started this thread asking for help with a number of DCC issues because you said that you're new to DCC and needed help. Despite loads of advice from various people, you don't seem to have acted on any of the advice offered. You now seem to have started another thread in which you say that you are experienced with DCC and new to DC, and now need help with your DC control system (see link below) http://www.rmweb.co.uk/community/index.php?/topic/55028-need-help-with-how-to-wire-for-dc-control/page__pid__665045&do=findComment&comment=665045 Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy to help people, but I really don't understand where you're coming from??? Grateful if you could advise Mike Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium kevinlms Posted April 13, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 13, 2012 Hi Scott, Sorry but I'm getting a bit confused. You started this thread asking for help with a number of DCC issues because you said that you're new to DCC and needed help. Despite loads of advice from various people, you don't seem to have acted on any of the advice offered. You now seem to have started another thread in which you say that you are experienced with DCC and new to DC, and now need help with your DC control system (see link below) http://www.rmweb.co....045#entry665045 Don't get me wrong, I'm really happy to help people, but I really don't understand where you're coming from??? Grateful if you could advise Mike Yes, I'm confused too. The OP has suggested that the problem relates to the locos stopping over points and in the case of sound locos, restarting. That suggests to me (and others) that the problem is loss of power on the points. He has told us that he wants to change the 'means of operating the points'. Changing the method or equipment used to change the points won't fix any loss of power problems. As Kenton advises on a regular basis, there is only one way to wire points, regardless of whether DC or DCC (rightly so IMO) and that is to get power to the moving blades & the frog, so that there is as much wheel to rail with power on it as possible. That is the best way to eliminate dodgy power supply to the loco, especially in addition to sufficient & clean pick ups and reliable internal wiring in the loco. Sites like Brian Larbet's, are quite clear of the various ways that this can be done. The OP has also started threads about starting again with a new layout (with or without his existing helix). Maybe its time he read & took on board some of the replies already made and perhaps the subject wouldn't be getting so confusing. Of course the OP can ignore such advice if he so chooses, but then why ask the questions? Kevin Martin Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 Hi I understand what you mean i have used dcc for a couple of years and had a few problems which i have managed to sort out. As regards to the layout im not completly happy with it and am going to start again now i have got a plan i really like but now have a helix which is surplus to requirment (at the moment) And as for the controls of the new layout i am going to give dc control ago. Thanks everyone for the advice it has been most helpful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted April 13, 2012 Author Share Posted April 13, 2012 You now seem to have started another thread in which you say that you are experienced with DCC and new to DC, and now need help with your DC control system (see link below) http://www.rmweb.co....045#entry665045 Mike Hi mike i have taken your advice and acted on it. But starting the layout again is something i have thought of for a while now regardless of the problem i had. I have not mentioned that i am experienced in dcc. i said that i have always wired my layout for dcc control and never wired for dc. (if i was experienced i wouldnt have asked the questions in the first place.) Once again thanks for the advice and has helped Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Enjoyed our chat at Taunton. Has 2 pages of discussion helped at all? The ECoS is a top notch control system, I will happily swap it for my NCE Powercab if you like! Hope there has been some forward motion overall. Bloody model electrics have driven us all totally mad at one time or another. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted May 10, 2012 Author Share Posted May 10, 2012 Our chat was brill answered alot of my questions and sorted alot of my problems with dcc. I have decided to stick with dcc but go with NCE system because i had a go and it does everything i want to and is simple to use, the ECoS is a fab bit of kit but was driving me round the bend. Im glad i had a chat with a few people at Taunton who put me back on the straight and narrow and told me to stick with dcc so thats what im doing. So here i am having a another bash with a new system and a new layout Thanks for the chat again Scott Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Are you keeping the ECoS? Glad to help! Waiting for the plans and pictures.... Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Earl Bathurst Posted May 11, 2012 Author Share Posted May 11, 2012 No im selling the ECoS. Its alot of money when you are not going to use it. So at least then ill get some money back to fund other projects ) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
sunbeam.20 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Having tried a few I can easily recommend the NCE system as the most user friendly. I do not think you will be disappointed. Matthew Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mo Dan Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 This is my first post althou i joined somtime ago. I am about to start a layout and i do not know if it shoud be dc or dcc. Following this thread is of interest because i want sound and lights and i am told the only way to do it is with dcc. But i saw something in Non DCC electrics by someone who had sound and lights with dc so now i do not know. I dont know why but cant find the post now but put the youtube videos in here as I save thge links Maurice Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
devondynosoar118 Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 The use of exciters in the back scene was very clever. I could see that approach working well with N where on board sound is difficult. The way the sound system is set up is also very effective. It requires quite a bit of operator input, which some may like more than others. Might I suggest a separate topic for this? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oakydoke Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 I am about to start a layout and i do not know if it shoud be dc or dcc. If starting out, it would make far more sense to go with DCC from the off. There's far more to DCC than just lights and sound. The demo you have shown, has been the subject of several threads in other parts of the forum. What that is is PC based off-board sound linked to a modified DC control set-up. Very clever it is too. Although it seems to be a hobby project, it might be ideal for the die-hard DC user who cannot or is unwilling to change over to DCC. For others it's not much of a reason for not going DCC though IMHO. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
clickertyclack Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 What that is is PC based off-board sound linked to a modified DC control set-up. Very clever it is too. Although it seems to be a hobby project, it might be ideal for the die-hard DC user who cannot or is unwilling to change over to DCC. for others it's not much of a reason for not going DCC though IMHO. Hi Oakydoke and Mo many thanks for your comments Oakydoke but it would appear you have not seen the last video which would somewhat contradict the above statement! The last has CD Stereo sound quality onboard! Also has augmenting sounds from sub bass in synch with onboard loco sounds. The first of its kind in the world unless I am told otherwise. Indeed at the moment it is a hobby project but things develope fast in the model rail world. ' for others it's not much of a reason for not going DCC though IMHO' And its possibly a very good reason for not going DCC INMO. But I not drawn to argue that point. Both the OP and Mo have asked a similar question of which I have via the vids given reasons as to why they might consider DC as opposed to DCC. 2 posts in this thread have stated yet again that sound and lights are only available with DCC, indeed one of the advantages we are constantly reminded of.Not so anymore. Please gentlemen lets have a level playing field before we try to influence other members .I am sure you will agree we need to remain factually correct in our statements in whatever system we model in. Mo Welcome to the forum! You are not probable aware that it would be wrong of me to discuss the system you have seen above, in this section of RMweb which I think may be of interest to you. Forum etiquette precludes me from discussing it further here but should you want any further information on the system or indeed impartial advise on anything relating to dc control please post in the Electrics(Non DCC) section. Maybe a title like ' DC Loco Sound And LIghts would certainly get my attention Regards CC Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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