hmrspaul Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 Lets hope TMC follow RMweb and read this thread. I shouldn't think so. They are extremely thick skinned - continuing to have several horse box prototype photos on the site which are NOT their copyright (I have control of the Tony Dyer collection), nor have I received any request to use them. Indeed they have told me they are not copyright - and one is clearly 'screened' so apparently lifted from Model Rail. Paul Bartlett Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
reevesthecat Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 The terms of the contract are something we're not party to, speculation about it isnt particularly helpful to either party IMHO. It's only partly relevant anyway because as somebody has already said, the TMC increase is far more than Bachmann's own 12.5%. Forgot when I typed the increase was more than the 12.5%! That does put a different light on it ! mark Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted April 29, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted April 29, 2012 I've ordered the Match Truck, the BirdsEye Container Flats and a couple of Horse Boxes but can't recall being asked for or paying a deposit. Will wait and see what happens if and when they contact me....... Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium 31A Posted April 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted April 29, 2012 Same here; I ordered a horse box by phone shortly after they were announced, so it's a while back now and my recollection may be incorrect, but I don't remember having to give any card details - they certainly haven't charged me, so I'm waiting to see what happens, too. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeney Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 To be clear on my earlier post. I purchased two Match Trucks with my credit card over the internet on the 26th March 2012. They were advertised as due for release in May. On the 13th April 2012 TMC demanded a further £5.42 or suggested I cancel my order. I received an email from TMC on the 16th April stating they have cancelled my order. On the whole I believe if there had been a pricing error I should have been contacted a fair bit earlier. Perhaps this may be understandable if the items were pre ordered 12 months in advance. Not when when money has exchanged hands and three weeks later they want more money. A complete shambles of an organisation. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted April 29, 2012 Share Posted April 29, 2012 It is my understanding that TMC's website was set up such that if you placed your order online, you were charged in full at the time. If you placed the order over the phone (as I did, because I didn't fancy paying a lot of money up front over such a long time-scale) then I was asked if I wanted to pay up front, and was told "A lot of people are". I declined at the time to do this, because I generally don't like giving interest-free loans for such a long time. I checked with a legal friend, and they say that those paying in full at time of order can consider receiving demands for additional money before they can receive their goods, to be illegal; and those concerned should pass on their concerns to trading standards. Given that almost all other special commissions of a specific model have eventually turned up in Bachmann's main range such as Modelzone's TPOs and NRM's City class/Midland compound (the only exception I can think of so far is the NRM DELTIC) I will be happy to wait and see. If TMC really did have exclusive rights on the tooling, then I don't see why such a last minute and badly handled price increase would have occurred without warning. Given what injection moulding tools actually cost to make, I suspect that Bachmann will still own this one. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverlink Posted April 30, 2012 Share Posted April 30, 2012 I find it totally amazing that people will part with their hard earned cash & pay the outrageous prices that some of these companies command for what is in essence a ready –to-run-model. I have been involved with the renumbering & detailing of model railways for close on 40 years now & never ever charged anything like the figures we see. I am not a retailer so advise people of what to purchase & how much it will cost to do the work. This way they can search for the best price & know what the total cost will be after modifying. I know from the advertised prices seen on the net my customers will save anything from £50 to £80 on a loco. silverlink Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeney Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 As TMC are operating as a registered Bachmann Dealer it occurs to me that it may be beneficial to contact Bachmann, at their Barwell address, and complain directly. I shall post any reply that may be forthcoming. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted May 3, 2012 Share Posted May 3, 2012 Lets hope TMC follow RMweb and read this thread. I know that TMC have seen the content and probably other similar topics too. There may have been variation in the price that they had to pay on delivery (compared to any initial costs) dependent on any contract for supply they agreed. Assuming that to be the case and with an increase in the selling price evident it's worth bearing in mind the following: Even if you have paid the retailer it does not have to supply the goods at the original price, they can offer a refund or the option to pay the difference but it depends on the T&Cs. In this respect it seems as thought TMC can vary the price as it their T&Cs deem no contract to supply the goods is in place until they'v notified you they're to be delivered (which of course you won't get unless you choose to pay the difference): 6. ORDERING 6.1 You will have an opportunity to check and correct any input errors in your order up until the point at which you submit your order. 
6.2 All orders made by you through the Website are subject to acceptance by us. 
We may choose not to accept your order for any reason and will not be liable to you or to anyone else in those circumstances. 
6.3 After submitting an order to us we will send you an order acknowledgement email with details of the goods that you have ordered. 
 6.4 Please note any such email is an acknowledgement and is not an acceptance of your order. 
6.5 Information concerning stock availability is not available on the Website. Some items may not be available at all and we will advise if this is the case.
 6.6 We endeavor to keep availability information as up to date as possible, however it will be subject to change. 
 6.7 We will do our best to contact you in the event of changes affecting an order you have placed. 
6.8 Acceptance of your order and the formation of a contract between us will take place when we send you an email confirming that the goods you have ordered have been despatched to you unless we have notified you that we do not accept your order or you have cancelled it. So; what about changing the price itself? 5.5 Although we endeavor to ensure that all pricing information on the Website is accurate, occasionally errors may occur and goods may be wrongly priced. If we discover a pricing error we will, at our discretion, either contact you and ask you whether you wish to continue with the order at the correct price or notify you that we have cancelled your order. 
5.6 We will not be obliged to supply goods at the incorrect price. They've covered themselves there too irrespective of whether you think it's an error or not. The above has been verified with the Citizens Advice Consumer Service. So; they can do what they've done however it is unsurprising that the end customer may be dissatisfied or feel they have not been kept suitably informed. The choice for the consumer is then whether they wish to progress with the order or place orders with the retailer again. Where my questions cannot be answered is whether they have the right to take payment of a greater amount than it was originally ordered for without communicating with the customer. I know what my thoughts are. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Whilst those terms and conditions would cover a scenario where money has yet to be taken, it is my understanding that in the eyes of the law, taking of what was billed at the time as the full amount for the goods would be seen as acceptance of the order. That's certainly how it works in the industry I work in. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Y Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 It doesn't apply if the T&Cs clearly define when an order is deemed as accepted. That was checked with what used to be Trading Standards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
ctc Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 It might not be illegal in the eyes of the law but the practise seems wholly unethical and not in the "spirit" of the law. The idea that you pre order at an agreed price and then they aren't supplied the goods at the original price seems wrong in principle. TMC no longer have a store so I don't understand why Bachmann deal with them directly. It was my understanding that Bachmann only dealt with "Brick and Mortar" stores. It them as a company a huge advantage that seems very unfair. As consumers though we have the option to take out business elsewhere. It doesn't reflect well on there business though. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_R Posted May 4, 2012 Share Posted May 4, 2012 Just called TMC cancelling all my orders with them and asked for a refund for the shunters wagon and horse boxes ordered and paid for last year. Once the refund is confirmed on my credit card I will be ordering a few of the Rail Exclusive RFD Class 47's! I now doubt that I will use TMC ever again as this episode has left a bit of a sour taste over our hobby - not something we really need in these difficult times for manufacturers, retailers and modellers alike. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 4, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 4, 2012 Just called TMC cancelling all my orders with them and asked for a refund for the shunters wagon and horse boxes ordered and paid for last year. Once the refund is confirmed on my credit card I will be ordering a few of the Rail Exclusive RFD Class 47's! I now doubt that I will use TMC ever again as this episode has left a bit of a sour taste over our hobby - not something we really need in these difficult times for manufacturers, retailers and modellers alike. Having read this thread, I think you made the right decision! If retailers such as this want our custom they need to nurture it, not push the conditions and spirit of the Terms and Conditions. I've never used TMC, and would never consider doing so after reading all this. I think some retailers need to consider the value of keeping potential customers "onside". Well done Martin. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Martin_R Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 My refund cheque arrived from TMC this morning and has been banked - now I need to decide which of the RFD 47's to have! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 8, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 8, 2012 My refund cheque arrived from TMC this morning and has been banked - now I need to decide which of the RFD 47's to have! Good to have a happy ending. At least you can choose your new locos without feeling you are being ripped-off. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Belgian Posted May 9, 2012 Share Posted May 9, 2012 Retailer/manufacturers can't really win in this sort of situation, can they? Damned if they do, bankrupted if they don't. Why do those who place pre-orders think they are entitled to a price set when costs were x when the actual item costs x + y? They were legally aware of the terms and conditions - it's the customer's fault for not reading them. They should put up and shut up and not whinge like has happened in this thread. The t&c allow them to get a refund if that's what they want so I really think this is a storm in a teacup. Andy has shown that the t&c were very clear on this matter. (I'm not an apologist for TMC, in fact, I have never bought anything from them). JE Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted May 9, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 9, 2012 My backorder has obviously reached the top of the pile - charge from TMC has just appeared on my card account. Mr. Birdseye must be on his way!! Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium brushman47544 Posted May 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 10, 2012 Retailer/manufacturers can't really win in this sort of situation, can they? Damned if they do, bankrupted if they don't. Why do those who place pre-orders think they are entitled to a price set when costs were x when the actual item costs x + y? They were legally aware of the terms and conditions - it's the customer's fault for not reading them. I quite agree....mostly. What we don't know are the contractual arrangements between TMC and Bachmann. My father in law is in the manufacturing business. If he quotes a price to a customer for producing a certain number of an item for a certain price and agrees a contract on that basis, then he has to honour that price. He knows what his costs are and sets a price accordingly. If his costs or his suppliers' prices go up, he has to absorb them or the customer can walk away. Perhaps the contact terms are different in the case of Bachmann's retailer LEs that allows them to put the contract price up? But if Bachmann after having agreed a contract and a price (without which how would the retailer price the model in the first place?) decided to up its price, the retailer may then decide that the higher price he would have to charge was too great and the LE would not sell, so did not want to proceed. I find it difficult to believe a retailer would sign a contract without something to protect his interests in such cases. I certainly wouldn't. There's another practice I don't particularly appreciate but some retailers do and puts me off buying from them - which I expect is perfectly legal and in no way am I suggesting TMC is one - is when a retailer puts up the price of an item based on the current RRP when they have bought their stock before the price rise. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 10, 2012 There could also be a simple price variation clause based on the value of the £ against the $ or the price of oil or the Chinese wage index - obviously it would be in the manufacturer's interest to protect their end of the deal in a fairly volatile economic situation. Price variation clauses are fairly common in commercial contracts as I understand things. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Physicsman Posted May 10, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 10, 2012 So maybe the "moral" of the whole saga is this: If you pre-order, be prepared for potential price rises at a later date. If you aren't prepared to do this, wait until the item is in stock and decide at that point whether you can afford it or not. Jeff Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
silverlink Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Can I ask someone who is involved with this thread did you pay the full amount up front? & if you did what sort of delivery time were you given. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold tetsudofan Posted May 10, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 10, 2012 Looking at my preorder records I ordered the Birds Eye Conflats and Shunters Running Wagon over the telephone on September 22, 2011. At the same time I confirmed my order for some Horse Boxes ordered previously through the website. At no time was I asked for any payment in advance so no payment in advance was made. At no time was I given a delivery time. This was no problem for me as this appears to be the norm these days - in most cases items ordered turn up in the end. Prices have been rising year by year so I expected the final price to reflect reality. If, however, I had paid up front in full I would have expected receive the item for that amount paid - to me that's all part of the deal. I would be upset if the vendor came back to me for more money. Normally I don't pay upfront or make deposits but recently I did - I preordered and paid for a Cl.73 Limited Edition from The HobbyShop at Faversham - and I expect The HobbyShop to honour their end of the deal...... Keith Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matabiau Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 I paid up front in December, £35 including postage; As yet I have heard nothing concerning delivery of the item nor any communication to suggest a price increase will be applied. Pehaps I am at the bottom of the pre-orders queue. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sweeney Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Can I ask someone who is involved with this thread did you pay the full amount up front? & if you did what sort of delivery time were you given. Hi Silverlink, I paid upfront on the 26th March 2012. They were advertised as due for release in May. On the 13th April 2012 TMC demanded a further £5.42. ​They should put up and shut up and not whinge like has happened in this thread. Who do you think you are Belgian? You have no legitimate cause for telling concerned and valuable members of this forum to 'shut up'. There are three issues here and on another board, each with differing levels of concern. i. Those who reserved an item without an exchange of payment and were subsequently asked for more money. ii. Those who purchased an item and were awaiting release and were subsequently asked for more money. iii. Those who reserved an item and left card details and were subsequently charged more without the consent of the cardholder. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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