34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 'Next' is already in discussion. We know what and with whom. Even the one AFTER next is being thought about! (CJL) Having moved forward in time with small steam shunty things, are there any diesel shunty things without RTR models? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Oh, you guessed! It'll have a choice of 2 x 4-coupled or 1 x 8-coupled mechanism and the DCC version will have a special unit which erupts in flames when you press function 13! Seriously, we'll be wanting something that will sell more than four models! I'd go for 18000 but that's not happening, either. Nor is an 'S160' - so I've narrowed the field down just a bit. (CJL) 18100, obviously, as it wasn’t mentioned, and the E1000 variant. That should sell at least eight models. (I bet it’s a red herring in the manner of Rapido.) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 At last - the Fell! If only. I think it was the steam heating boiler which killed it rather than a malfunction of its, er, rather startling traction innards. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Having moved forward in time with small steam shunty things, are there any diesel shunty things without RTR models? Hell’s bells, yes. The 06 needs a more up-to-date model for a start. I’d say the need was greater than for a J94. There are other TOPS-era shunters and plenty of exotic LMS shunters. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 At last - the Fell! .......at Beecher's Brook. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 Continuing the Southern theme,maybe a leader in its class ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) Alas, here lies the USA tank thread. April 2012-October 2016. Dead and buried under speculation of what's next. RIP s100, your 10 variants entertained us for 4 years, and 4 weeks since release, but now to be forgotten as we move on till the next model is announced. Now, how about a London transport L44 0-4-4t as preserved ? Edited October 7, 2016 by adb968008 3 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Jeepers, not to be forgotten! Not least because I have so far got only two of the four I want. With all the excellent suggestions on here (including L44) it goes to show that we are very far from running out of prototypes to choose from. Would someone please tell CJL what the Italian is for 48 and send him off to talk to Auntie Vi? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Ian Hargrave Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 GWR 1500 Pannier tank would be a natural follow up imho, it was inspired by the s100 after all. That's a winner. They worked empty stock workings into and out of Paddington for many years. The first thing to greet you as you walked from the concourse onto the platform to board your train was usually the business end of one..In my case the carriage headboards proclaimed 'Paddington-Newport-Cardiff and Swansea' and at the front would be a gleaming Landore Castle or an equally sparkling Canton Britannia. CJL knows all about these and the workings at Old Oak and Paddington.I have in my hand his 1993 'The Heyday Of Old Oak Common And Its Locomotives'. which contains some lovely colour shots and a couple of the Hawksworth tanks,one in lined black and the other in plain BR Green.Bachmann is shortly ( ? ) to produce its cousin,the 9400,with which it shared similar duties.I think that's a good call.We shall see 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 Jeepers, not to be forgotten! Not least because I have so far got only two of the four I want. With all the excellent suggestions on here (including L44) it goes to show that we are very far from running out of prototypes to choose from. Would someone please tell CJL what the Italian is for 48 and send him off to talk to Auntie Vi? We still have two variants yet to be delivered. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 That's a winner. They worked empty stock workings into and out of Paddington for many years. The first thing to greet you as you walked from the concourse onto the platform to board your train was usually the business end of one..In my case the carriage headboards proclaimed 'Paddington-Newport-Cardiff and Swansea' and at the front would be a gleaming Landore Castle or an equally sparkling Canton Britannia. CJL knows all about these and the workings at Old Oak and Paddington.I have in my hand his 1993 'The Heyday Of Old Oak Common And Its Locomotives'. which contains some lovely colour shots and a couple of the Hawksworth tanks,one in lined black and the other in plain BR Green.Bachmann is shortly ( ? ) to produce its cousin,the 9400,with which it shared similar duties.I think that's a good call.We shall see We did a test on this and several other ideas but - surprisingly - there was very little support. I wouldn't deny that there's lots of locos that haven't yet been 'done' in RTR but.........and its a very big BUT......... It's a different matter to pick one that's a surefire winner, that will earn back the eye-watering investment that's now necessary to produce a new locomotive. (CJL) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 7, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 7, 2016 (edited) We did a test on this and several other ideas but - surprisingly - there was very little support. I wouldn't deny that there's lots of locos that haven't yet been 'done' in RTR but.........and its a very big BUT......... It's a different matter to pick one that's a surefire winner, that will earn back the eye-watering investment that's now necessary to produce a new locomotive. (CJL) true, tastes can change too, if the "must haves" before it in the list are done, it pushes others to the surface. Accepted there is always the risk of Pannier overload 1366, 9400 not long behind the 64xx, and the earlier 1360 are all on the way, but 1501 is here and now in service, indeed nearly continuous service for 20 years and as Mr Hargrave above indicates.. it's a London Pannier with a mainline and enthusiasts pedigree, not a rural branchline tank. Additionally in it's favour, is people have had a taste of the USA tank, seen how it looks and runs with it's unusual valve gear..something that GW fans, just like Hawksworth in 1948/9, might now want a piece of. When it comes to panniers, desirables may be running a little thin on the ground, 54xx may be of interest (only 2mm larger wheels than a 64xx ) and a 97xx but after those and the 1500 the good ones are all taken. As things go a 1500 could be a close match to a Bachmann 9400 with steam pipes and a different chassis... Above all my kit built example is up and running and i'm about to paint it, which means the day after I finish it someone will announce one. Edited October 7, 2016 by adb968008 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 7, 2016 Share Posted October 7, 2016 We did a test on this and several other ideas but - surprisingly - there was very little support. I wouldn't deny that there's lots of locos that haven't yet been 'done' in RTR but.........and its a very big BUT......... It's a different matter to pick one that's a surefire winner, that will earn back the eye-watering investment that's now necessary to produce a new locomotive. (CJL) The Fell was a sure fire. 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
dibber25 Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 true, tastes can change too, if the "must haves" before it in the list are done, it pushes others to the surface. Accepted there is always the risk of Pannier overload 1366, 9400 not long behind the 64xx, and the earlier 1360 are all on the way, but 1501 is here and now in service, indeed nearly continuous service for 20 years and as Mr Hargrave above indicates.. it's a London Pannier with a mainline and enthusiasts pedigree, not a rural branchline tank. Additionally in it's favour, is people have had a taste of the USA tank, seen how it looks and runs with it's unusual valve gear..something that GW fans, just like Hawksworth in 1948/9, might now want a piece of. When it comes to panniers, desirables may be running a little thin on the ground, 54xx may be of interest (only 2mm larger wheels than a 64xx ) and a 97xx but after those and the 1500 the good ones are all taken. As things go a 1500 could be a close match to a Bachmann 9400 with steam pipes and a different chassis... Above all my kit built example is up and running and i'm about to paint it, which means the day after I finish it someone will announce one. There used to be a saying in our office - repeated until I was truly fed up with hearing it - "Just because there's a gap in the market, doesn't mean there's a market in the gap." It's very true of wish-lists, now that so many prototypes have been covered. Just because something rises to the top of the list doesn't mean there's half a million £s worth of sales waiting. There are, maybe, a handful of 'special' subjects which could still be covered profitably that are real niche products that would be worth a gamble. Similarly there are a handful of loco types that could do with a model to 21st century standards and would offer large enough sales. There are none, however, which will stand re-doing by two competing manufacturers if either of them expects to make a profit. It would be interesting to know from one of the major manufacturers, how the quantities ordered have changed over the last 20 years. Is an ever-increasing investment having to be recouped from fewer and fewer models? I suspect that we might be surprised but I'm not sure what that surprise would be. (CJL) 4 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
SRman Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 The Fell was a sure fire. I believe it was, indeed, prone to self-immolation! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
34theletterbetweenB&D Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 ..Just because something rises to the top of the list doesn't mean there's half a million £s worth of sales waiting... And I suspect that with Hornby offering the Bulleid MN, that is the last such steam class 'taken' in OO that offers the prospect of near guaranteed sales of every variant offered, over a decade or longer sequence of productions from the tools. We'll see what is 'worth the gamble' from entrants such as Oxford. They will have to 'tread on toes' somewhere to fulfill their intent of developing a range. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2016 (edited) There used to be a saying in our office - repeated until I was truly fed up with hearing it - "Just because there's a gap in the market, doesn't mean there's a market in the gap." It's very true of wish-lists, now that so many prototypes have been covered. Just because something rises to the top of the list doesn't mean there's half a million £s worth of sales waiting. There are, maybe, a handful of 'special' subjects which could still be covered profitably that are real niche products that would be worth a gamble. Similarly there are a handful of loco types that could do with a model to 21st century standards and would offer large enough sales. There are none, however, which will stand re-doing by two competing manufacturers if either of them expects to make a profit. It would be interesting to know from one of the major manufacturers, how the quantities ordered have changed over the last 20 years. Is an ever-increasing investment having to be recouped from fewer and fewer models? I suspect that we might be surprised but I'm not sure what that surprise would be. (CJL) I do whole heartedly agree and you have my respect for your involvement with the USA tanks, a remarkable achievement in regards quality and the total quantity produced. In my opinion, anyone considering making a new tooling in 2017-2020 would be wise to consider based on a £1=$1 scenario, and expect less sales due to economic shrinkage and expect the OEM per part price to be higher than in the past. Against that back drop any investment is a risk, I doubt many models will have as much success in the next few years as we have seen in the last few years, regardless the prototype selected. Thats before any of the normalised industry factors mentioned above. Anyone risking investing in further toolings in the economic market we are about to enter gains my respect, indeed all the smaller manufacturers, who seem to be continuing unabated in this crowded market place which imho has a glut of models at one price point, and are at risk of being stuck on the shelves at another. I await the next announcement with eagerness, at least apparently safe in the knowledge that my kit built 1500 isnt being duplicated any time soon. :-) Edited October 8, 2016 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold adb968008 Posted October 8, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted October 8, 2016 (edited) And I suspect that with Hornby offering the Bulleid MN, that is the last such steam class 'taken' in OO that offers the prospect of near guaranteed sales of every variant offered, over a decade or longer sequence of productions from the tools. I might differ on this one. The MN has been announced about as long as the Peckett. The Peckett however is sold out to pre-orders at Hornby and some dealers too. The MN is not sold out anywhere that I know of. I'm venturing a guess that quantities of the Peckett might be higher too, My guess is that the mix of Price, Quality and Desirability may be stronger on the Peckett... Price and Desirability being the factors.. it's cheaper and we don't generally have as many Industrials to chose from, where as a MN in rebuilt form has been around for a long time already, if not overdone, and initially produced at a much more desirable price than the newer toolings we see today... we haven't yet seen the reportedly announced October 10th price rise of the MN navy yet... I'm basing this on my own opinion and actions.. I've ordered all 3 pecketts, but I only just ordered an unrebuilt MN this week ( and only then to avoid the price rise, and if that doesn't materialise I may yet cancel and await a more desirable number to be reproduced.. yet I own 4 Rebuilt MN and I think 12 WC/BB's for some reason the unrebuilt's not hit my spot enough to order 2-3 of them... not being able to "see" one in the flesh for 56-57 years is probably part of it), of course I am probably wrong and maybe the MN is being produced in vast more quantities than the Pecket hence the wider availability or it could be that seeing is believing.. The Peckett looks appealing and there's been more visibility of it..I don't know. Edited October 8, 2016 by adb968008 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
JSpencer Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 I might differ on this one. The MN has been announced about as long as the Peckett. The Peckett however is sold out to pre-orders at Hornby and some dealers too. The MN is not sold out anywhere that I know of. I'm venturing a guess that quantities of the Peckett might be higher too, My guess is that the mix of Price, Quality and Desirability may be stronger on the Peckett... Price and Desirability being the factors.. it's cheaper and we don't generally have as many Industrials to chose from, where as a MN in rebuilt form has been around for a long time already, if not overdone, and initially produced at a much more desirable price than the newer toolings we see today... we haven't yet seen the reportedly announced October 10th price rise of the MN navy yet... I'm basing this on my own opinion and actions.. I've ordered all 3 pecketts, but I only just ordered an unrebuilt MN this week ( and only then to avoid the price rise, and if that doesn't materialise I may yet cancel and await a more desirable number to be reproduced.. yet I own 4 Rebuilt MN and I think 12 WC/BB's for some reason the unrebuilt's not hit my spot enough to order 2-3 of them... not being able to "see" one in the flesh for 56-57 years is probably part of it), of course I am probably wrong and maybe the MN is being produced in vast more quantities than the Pecket hence the wider availability..I don't know. I am the reverse. 0 Pecketts and 3 original Merchant Navies on order. The Pecketts production date is probably set, while the Merchant navy still has some way to go. (If they do a Peckett from the south, I might get one). Getting back on topic, all 3 of my USA tanks are colourful ones and not typical BR Black. Do I buy a 4th or a DJM austerity ? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robin Brasher Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Pleased to see that we are back to topic. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
90rob Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 Getting back on topic, all 3 of my USA tanks are colourful ones and not typical BR Black. Do I buy a 4th or a DJM austerity ? If you have bought 3, then a period of austerity might be in order....: :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Decorum Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 I am the reverse. 0 Pecketts and 3 original Merchant Navies on order. The Pecketts production date is probably set, while the Merchant navy still has some way to go. (If they do a Peckett from the south, I might get one). Getting back on topic, all 3 of my USA tanks are colourful ones and not typical BR Black. Do I buy a 4th or a DJM austerity ? Only you know what you want and the decision might be influenced by your controller. A fourth. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
QuoitsPlayer Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 My has USA arrived and had it's legs stretched, can I just a massive Thank You to dibber25 and everyone at Model Rail for this cheeky little engine How it justifies being on either my North Eastern region or Great Western layouts I don't know Ps, if Model Rail do another USA bulit engine put me down for an S160 please Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium TheQ Posted October 8, 2016 RMweb Premium Share Posted October 8, 2016 My has USA arrived and had it's legs stretched, can I just a massive Thank You to dibber25 and everyone at Model Rail for this cheeky little engine How it justifies being on either my North Eastern region or Great Western layouts I don't know Ps, if Model Rail do another USA bulit engine put me down for an S160 please S160s visited Tidworth via Ludgershall during WW2, Longmoor military had an S100 after ww2, The Americans Manned Tidworth in WW2, in my version of history, the S100 was there too. So I've got a USTC liveried S100 on GWR lines But I need an S160, please, please, please. I know you're just waiting till I scratch build one! Anyone know of a RTR chassis with the right wheelbase? 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
6892 Oakhill Grange Posted October 8, 2016 Share Posted October 8, 2016 true, tastes can change too, if the "must haves" before it in the list are done, it pushes others to the surface. Accepted there is always the risk of Pannier overload 1366, 9400 not long behind the 64xx, and the earlier 1360 are all on the way, but 1501 is here and now in service, indeed nearly continuous service for 20 years and as Mr Hargrave above indicates.. it's a London Pannier with a mainline and enthusiasts pedigree, not a rural branchline tank. Additionally in it's favour, is people have had a taste of the USA tank, seen how it looks and runs with it's unusual valve gear..something that GW fans, just like Hawksworth in 1948/9, might now want a piece of. When it comes to panniers, desirables may be running a little thin on the ground, 54xx may be of interest (only 2mm larger wheels than a 64xx ) and a 97xx but after those and the 1500 the good ones are all taken. As things go a 1500 could be a close match to a Bachmann 9400 with steam pipes and a different chassis... Above all my kit built example is up and running and i'm about to paint it, which means the day after I finish it someone will announce one. Problem is that the plain vanilla 57xx/8750/97xx/67xx//riveting pannier is in need of a facelift. Correct tank filler, correct cab doors, lack of top feed or presence of, correct brake shoes, 3D tank stools, roof grab rails only when necessary etc. While required in masses for ant GWR layout post 1938 or so, not very cute and therefore not currently commercially viable in 4mm - very bizarre. How much does a commission actually cost. Oakhill Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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