Black Country Blues

[Dave47549]

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Edited October 1, 2021 by Dave47549
Removed pointless guff

[Fat Controller]

On the Ore Tipplers which had the ends cut (like: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/brironoretipplerunfit/h699AA1D#h699aa1d ) were both ends cut?

I must confess I'd never seen any modified with cutaway ends like that; I wonder if, as much as anything, they were intended to facilitate the use of a C-hook, as used to handle sideways or end-to-end coil?

[Mark Forrest]

Interesting, do you think it might have been a coil carrying conversion that was re-used for ingot moulds or just the C hook being used to load moulds rather than slings?

[talisman56]

Are there plans for bufferstops on the sidings that end just before the brick wall? Otherwise you'll have to model the buffer impressions in the brickwork similar to the ones in the cliff face at Micheldever...

Edited September 29, 2013 by talisman56

[Andy Y]

Are there plans for bufferstops on the sidings that end just before the brick wall? Otherwise you'll have to model the buffer impressions in the brickwork similar to the ones in the cliff face at Micheldever...

 

They'll be planted next weekend; we'd been waiting for Dave Franks' lovely pieces.

[Geoff Cook]

They'll be planted next weekend; we'd been waiting for Dave Franks' lovely pieces.

 

After Andy Y has had a consensus

[Mark Forrest]

A little more progress on the Ingot Mould wagon today.  Firstly, 1mm squares of plastic cut then, cut in half to form the triangular gussets beneath the top capping:

I used an unmodified wagon as a guide to the positions:

A quick blast of grey primer, buffers removed ready for replacement with Oleos (need to order some more):

 

 

Meanwhile, here is the brake gear on the other side of that Plate:

 

With all these wagons, we've a bit of a shortage of Type 4 motive power.  I've had a Bachmann Class 44 tucked away in the "round to it" pile for longer than I care to remember.  As one of the early releases it was lacking an exhaust port on the roof - see comparison to a later release 45:

 

Have cut an apperture in the roof, have since added some beading around this:

[melmerby]

Top marks for your bus recognition, particularly as you can only see the roof in that photo!  Thanks, will keep a look out for something more suitable.

A photo of one here:

 

http://www.flickr.com/photos/8615623@N04/2567773434/in/set-72157601589095249

 

Keith

[DonB]

They'll be planted next weekend; we'd been waiting for Dave Franks' lovely pieces.

quote (Geoff Cooks)

After Andy Y has had a consensus.......

 

 

 

Will he need an anaesthetic?

[Mark Forrest]

Just a little light weathering tonight/last night.....

 

A cruel close up of that Class 44 exhaust:

[Mark Forrest]

The embankments looked a bit too green/beige so I thought it needed something to break it up a little and chose to have a crack at some Rosebay Willow Herb as something appropriate for urban dereliction rather than rural flora. I've never seen any modelled which really lit my fire(weed) so I thought I'd have a go using some other products.

Apparently Red Bartsia is the plant we need

[br2975]

Interesting, do you think it might have been a coil carrying conversion that was re-used for ingot moulds or just the C hook being used to load moulds rather than slings?

 

I doubt it, as the coil conversions of tipplers had their sides cut down and were fitted internally with timber baulks - but there again, there's "a prototype for everything".

 

However, during the mid-60s BR converted a number of vacuum fitted sixteen tonners for coil use in South Wales by (apparently) welding up the doors and fitting coil cradles. These eventually returned to mineral traffic - possibly when tipplers and pig iron wagons began to be converted to coil use. These were branded "For pickle coil traffic, return to Abbey Works, Port Talbot" or similar.

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In addition "RTB" (Richard Thomas & Baldwins) operated a large number of unfitted sixteen tonners (obtained from BR) which were also fitted with coil cradles; most went in the early 1970s-  photos of which appear on Paul Bartlett's site.

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Brian R

[Enterprisingwestern]

Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but I quote from "Working wagons vol 2 1974 - 1979" by David Larkin;
 
In the tippler wagons, they ( the moulds) were laid on a bed of gravel. Plate wagons were unsuitable for such loads, as they could roll off over the low sides. However, tippler wagons were less than satisfactory in their original condition as it proved difficult for the loaders to get out of the vehicle once the ingot moulds had been loaded.In time, access holeswere cut in the sides but this modification will also be dealt with in the next volume.

 

A picture caption states; The use of iron ore tipplers to carry ingot moulds began during the review period but there appears to have been a lot of confusion initially over the correct TOPS code for ingot mould wagons.

 

So by my reckoning, tipplers weren't starting to be used until some time between 1974 and 1979, and the bodyside modifications weren't made until after 1979. Hope that helps your time frame.

 

Mike.

Edited October 2, 2013 by Enterprisingwestern

[Adam]

However, during the mid-60s BR converted a number of vacuum fitted sixteen tonners for coil use in South Wales by (apparently) welding up the doors and fitting coil cradles. These eventually returned to mineral traffic - possibly when tipplers and pig iron wagons began to be converted to coil use. These were branded "For pickle coil traffic, return to Abbey Works, Port Talbot" or similar.

.

In addition "RTB" (Richard Thomas & Baldwins) operated a large number of unfitted sixteen tonners (obtained from BR) which were also fitted with coil cradles; most went in the early 1970s-  photos of which appear on Paul Bartlett's site.

.

Brian R

 

The first comment is interesting Brian - partly because I like building the things of course - but mostly because I hadn't heard of those. Given the large number of different types of simple 'conversions' (i.e., pop some baulks in the bottom of a wagon, maybe reinforce the tops of the sides for wooden vehicles), that isn't altogether surprising.The small selection of RTB wagons on Paul's site can be found here: http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/p66368710 By way of an aside, these wagons tended to be of the earlier varieties of 16 tonner so things like pressed end doors and bottom doors were quite common at a point where they were (generally) vanishing from the BR fleet either by withdrawal, replacement or the early stages of the re-bodying programme.

Adam

[hmrspaul]

Apologies if I'm teaching my grandmother to suck eggs, but I quote from "Working wagons vol 2 1974 - 1979" by David Larkin;

 

In the tippler wagons, they ( the moulds) were laid on a bed of gravel. Plate wagons were unsuitable for such loads, as they could roll off over the low sides. However, tippler wagons were less than satisfactory in their original condition as it proved difficult for the loaders to get out of the vehicle once the ingot moulds had been loaded.In time, access holeswere cut in the sides but this modification will also be dealt with in the next volume.

 

A picture caption states; The use of iron ore tipplers to carry ingot moulds began during the review period but there appears to have been a lot of confusion initially over the correct TOPS code for ingot mould wagons.

 

So by my reckoning, tipplers weren't starting to be used until some time between 1974 and 1979, and the bodyside modifications weren't made until after 1979. Hope that helps your time frame.

 

Mike.

I would suggest that I was lucky to find some Ingot Moulds at Wellingborough in October 1975. They appear to be quite newly written for this traffic http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brironoretipplerunfit/e54d13a8

 

Why they remained mixed in with the huge fleet of IOT that were standing in Wellingborough I cannot explain, However looking through http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brironoretipplerunfit/e54d13a8 some were doing just the same at Wellingborough in 1978 and 1982. They also returned to other traffics. This one http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brironoretipplerunfit/e3a6c7f06  from October 1983 appears to have had a period in Stone traffic before being claimed by the civil engineers.

 

I believe the rectangular holes in the side were quite newly cut when seen at Radyr in September 1981 http://PaulBartlett.zenfolio.com/brironoretipplerunfit/e14894b4b .

 

Paul Bartlett

 

Edit - I have collected the ingot moulds into their own collection http://paulbartlett.zenfolio.com/ingotmould

Edited October 2, 2013 by hmrspaul

[br2975]

The first comment is interesting Brian - partly because I like building the things of course - but mostly because I hadn't heard of those.

 

Given the large number of different types of simple 'conversions' (i.e., pop some baulks in the bottom of a wagon, maybe reinforce the tops of the sides for wooden vehicles), that isn't altogether surprising.

 

Adam,

 

200 fitted mineral wagons (Dia.1/108 and Dia. 1/117 ?) were converted in 1962 (Dia. 1/409 refers).

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They were back in mineral traffic by the late 1960s and it is quite likely the recovered baulks were re-used in other 4 wheeled coil conversions , possibly Coil C, J and P ? 

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Brian R

Edited October 2, 2013 by br2975

[Adam]

Cheers Brian - It was the reference yo fitted minersls that surpised me, and I didn't have any reference material on hand this morning, possibly the Coil J, but the Coil C were the ex-pig iron types (I think, I'm on the train home so can't check) which, going on Paul's pictures, seem to have had moveable cross baulks located with multiple holes and long pins to locate them.

 

Reading to do then...

 

Adam

[Andy Y]

The  canal junction board is back with me at the moment so it's a chance to do more stuff that you can't see.

 

 

Yes, I need to replace the chimney pots!

 

Mrs Arden's pigs have a spot of breakfast.

 

 

I don't think much of their house either.

 

 

Rather than contrive a bridge over the canal that went nowhere there's now a disused toll-house opposite the cottages to explain the narrowing as the canal goes off-scene. Must get it finished though.

 

[The Stationmaster]

What a beautifully observed run for the pigs - top notch modelling is one thing but getting the 'feel' of the subject right is in another league.  (but where is the water trough and their rubbing marks on those wooden posts?)

Edited October 3, 2013 by The Stationmaster

[Andy Y]

but where is the water trough 

 

When I find Mrs Arden's old tin bath they'll get a drink.

[Worsdell forever]

A tin bath would be no good, they're too tall and the pigs wouldn't be able to get their snouts in so they would probably just tip it over.

[skipepsi]

A Belfast sink or a sink from a wash house will do the job.but troughs could be made out of half pipes and a bit of cement.

[The Stationmaster]

With all this 'helpful' advice Andy'll wish he'd done rabbit hutches instead of a pigsty  

[BG John]

Unless it's on a level with the chimney pots, I didn't think anyone would be able to see it anyway!

[Arthur]

Rolling Mills and Mill Rolls.

Clearly this is an enormous subject so I’ll keep it to some basics.

 

The principle is simple enough, heat steel until it is ‘plastic’ then squeeze and form it by forcing it through shaped rolls. This flowchart shows the various pathways ingots might take through the rolling mills though no single works had, or has, the plant, to roll all these possible products. Blooms and billets are referred to as semi-finished products as they have virtually no direct end use, they need further rolling, or forging, to make them usable. Missing from this chart, because they're not rolled as such, are tubes (made from billets or narrow strip) and wire (drawn from rod). Billets also went to the drop stamping and forging trades.

 

 

Here’s the slabbing mill at John Summers Shotton works. It’s a 42” x 108”, reversing mill built by Davy United of Sheffield with a 7,000 hp drive and had an annual capacity of 1,250,000 ingot tons. The dimensions are the size of the rolls (diameter x length) and reversing means that the slab, or ingot, is passed back and forth, each pass further reducing its size, whilst increasing its length. On these large mills, 15 passes would be typical before the steel moved on. The cabin over the feed rollers is the ‘pulpit’ where the mill operators sit. A large slabbing mill can weigh in excess of 2000 tons.

 

 

The cogging (or blooming mill) at Appleby Frodingham, Scunthorpe. The grooved rolls are clearly evident, the two blocks either side, with the holes in them, are the guides which slide the ingot across the mill to line up with right part of the roll, and the laminated arms to the right are the manipulators which are in the process of flipping it over. The dial indicates to the mill operators the position of the upper roll. Water is sprayed over the rolls to cool them and to wash off any scale or debris, anything stuck to them would be rolled into the steel. This is another reversing mill, It was John Ramsbottom of the LNWR who, by applying a steam locomotive type 'engine' to a rolling mill, developed the first proper such mill.

 

 

The above are both large mills used to reduce slabs and ingots. As the steel moves down the mill the individual mills get smaller and start to shape the finished product but the principle is the same. They are sometimes continuous mills consisting of several stands in line and the steel passes through them one after the other.

 

A diagram showing the two pairs of rolls involved in turning a billet into a channel. There are two cuts for the final pass, No 8. This is the finishing pass and needs to be accurate. As the roll wears, there’s more latitude acceptable in the shaping passes but less wear can be tolerated in the finishing pass which needs to be to the finished tolerance. Having two such cuts on the rolls allows the rolls to be in service longer before they are removed for dressing/re-turning so reducing mill down time.

 

 

The rolls themselves, like ingot moulds, are consumables, and are also bought in from specialist roll founders. They are cast, and sometimes forged, in a variety of ferrous metals; chilled iron, grain cast iron, steel and steel alloy. Once cast, they are heat treated to relieve some of the internal stresses and to get them to the right hardness. They are then turned to provide bearing surfaces on the shoulders and to provide the roll profile required.

 

There were once a large number of roll suppliers, rolling mill manufacturer Davy United had a roll foundry at Middlesborough and some large roll founders formed the British Rollmakers consortium, three of them were in the Black Country. Here’s one of their ads from 1975.

 

 

Tennants of Coatbridge are well known to rail enthusiasts for their fleet of well kept 100 h.p. steam Sentinels.

 

These rolls have been cast and are emerging from the heat treatment furnace, note the cruciform shape at the end, we'll return to that later.

 

 

Plate Rolls being turned at Tennants

 

 

A section roll, probably for rolling billets

 

 

All rolling mills would have had a roll store where rolls of various sizes and types were kept awaiting their next turn of duty and would have a roll turning shop where rolls could be dressed (turned to recut the correct profile). In use, they have a hard life, battered by steel sections ramming into them, which are then squeezed between them, they're heated by the steel being rolled whilst being sprayed with cold water to cool them and wash bits of debris off them. Once beyond further turning they would be scrapped and would likely be returned to the roll foundries for recycling.

 

A posting on model rolls in the next day or so but in the meantime, can anybody post a link to a photograph showing rolls loaded onto a wagon? I have a reason for asking....

 

 

Edited to add the location of the cogging mill.

Edited October 7, 2013 by Arthur