RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted May 20, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 20, 2012 I bought buy them if they were released. I know of a model shop that has a limited edition of the BR version of them, so that doesn`t interest me. Anyone agree? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Which Cornish Riviera coaches? There were special sets made on more than one occasion. If you mean the Centenary sets (as modelled by Airfix/Dapol/Hornby), there are several potential issues. First, there were 7 different diagrams of coach in the nominal 10-car sets (left-hand van third, third, dining car third, restaurant first, compo, right-hand van third, brake compo), and only 26 coaches were built (they made two sets plus some spares), Second, the windows were changed to have sliding ventilators three years into their lives (built 1935, rebuilt 1938), Airfix modelled the right-hand van third and the compo in as-built condition. Hornby's latest BR maroon release represented the ventlators with paint (quite effectively), so it is possible to have a moulding that could represent both (with different glazing units) if you were prepared to accept some small compromises. There are also underframe differences between the diagrams, although nothing that a common basis with different component positions wouldn't handle. If you mean the ~1930 bow-ended 60' set, I'd love to see them modelled. They wouldn't have the same sales appeal as the Centenaries because they aren't as distinctive, though. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugd1022 Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I would certainly be interested if a state of the art version in BR liveries with quality flush glazing etc were released at some point. Adrian - thanks for clarification on the rebuild date, I hadn't realised the window modification took place as early as that, for some reason I'd got it in my head that it occurred around ten years later. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 Riviera stock was specialised, built to the extreme width of 9' 7" (red triangle), and carried a route restriction warning. No reason why the 1930 stock shouldn't be done if a Midland Pullman or Southern Belle is deemed viable, but somehow I doubt it will. Too restricted and of little use to most GWR/Western Region modellers. A bit like offering a 94XX Pannier for branchline use, which did happen in 'owden days. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovex Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 I'm sure the C. Riviera stock was filtered down to other duties as was the Centenary stock. I have a photo of a centenary coach at Birmingham Snow Hill, the rest of the train being made up of other stock, one of which I think was a toplight. I agree that both types of coach were restricted on the network because of their width, but that hasn't really been an issue for manufacturers before. Hornby are currently offering Hawksworth coaches in GWR livery when most of them went straight into Crimson and Cream from new. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 In fact coaches very similar to the Riviera stock but narrower for more general use were also produced, and they retained recessed door handles. A canny RTR manufacturer would produce the narrower coaches and simply put Riviera roof boards on them if there was a market for such stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 21, 2012 Riviera stock was specialised, built to the extreme width of 9' 7" (red triangle), and carried a route restriction warning. No reason why the 1930 stock shouldn't be done if a Midland Pullman or Southern Belle is deemed viable, but somehow I doubt it will. Too restricted and of little use to most GWR/Western Region modellers. A bit like offering a 94XX Pannier for branchline use, which did happen in 'owden days. I agree absolutely regarding the coaches Larry - last thing on earth I would like to see taking a potential GW/WR 'production opportunity' when there is so much far more useful stock which could be produced. The Centenary stock was heavily route restricted within the Western for its entire working life although it was basically allowed on any route which had been broad gauge - but only on through running lines! But a small rap on the knuckles I'm afraid - one of our two local branch engines for some years was a 94XX - the other was a 57XX (but we also had a couple of exGW railcar workings on certain days of the week plus at one time a regular 14XX working late on Saturdays; then the all conquering dmus came along and all that variety on the branch's internal passenger workings ended0). Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 21, 2012 Share Posted May 21, 2012 The 94XX Panniers were heavy beggars and so the branches you refer to Mike must have been cleared for route restriction red C locos. I remember folk using them as 'typical' branch train panniers Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 21, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 21, 2012 The 94XX Panniers were heavy beggars and so the branches you refer to Mike must have been cleared for route restriction red C locos. I remember folk using them as 'typical' branch train panniers Our branch also saw regular working by 'Castles' and 'Halls' so very definitely in the Red category Larry. And yes - absolutely right of course the 94XX were Red restriction due to their weight but interestingly the Newport (Motive Power) District apparently were keen on using them on local passenger work and they could be seen on passenger work between Gloucester & Cheltenham (not exactly a branch if you're a Midland person of course ). The branch was also cleared for 9ft 7in wide passenger stock as it happens although I don't think it ever saw any. I suspect some Districts or sheds used them on jobs like that because they were unpopular for shunting as the regulator was difficult for a short Driver to reach while looking over the cab sidesheet (the story goes that one of our branch Drivers, of short stature, kept a box to stand on when he was working the 94 and he much preferred a 57). But as a general observation you're spot on - their weight restricted them and consequently kept them off many branches so they certainly weren't a 'typical' Western branch passenger loco. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwd Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just some decent GWR coaches, full stop. Bachmanns colletts are nice but that is it! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welsh Yorkie Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Just some decent GWR coaches, full stop. Bachmanns colletts are nice but that is it! I agree. Other than the Hawksworths, what GWR releases have we had in the last n years? We're getting to be (or we are) the forgotten coach region! I would like us to have the Hornby 57' models replaced with brand new ones - that would keep me happy for a while: general use across GWR, express, cross country, branch. I'd prefer that to restricted use coaches. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I agree. Other than the Hawksworths, what GWR releases have we had in the last n years? We're getting to be (or we are) the forgotten coach region! I would like us to have the Hornby 57' models replaced with brand new ones - that would keep me happy for a while: general use across GWR, express, cross country, branch. I'd prefer that to restricted use coaches. They would be my choice too, but I would like to see left- and right-handed van thirds and compos (to make the original six-car sets). Both the D95 van third and the E127 compo (the ones currently modelled by Hornby) had left- and right-handed versions. There were also the C54 third, E128 brake compo, and the D94 van third in the same style. The H33 restaurant compo (currently modelled by Hornby) and the K38 brake van (Ocean Mails van) could also be part of the release as they share many similarities with the series. That would be a total of 9 body styles. This would be a similar range of coaches to the Hornby Maunsells (6 body styles, with high and low window options for both, as well as a completely different brake van). They would also allow liveries including the faux-panelling of the 1920s (as built), through to BR maroon. Another sensible option might be the late Collett flat-ended coaches (later ones currently modelled by Bachmann), as there were a number of series of these from 1936 onwards that shared a lot of similarities of outline and construction but were visually quite different. The range of liveries is smaller though. Back on topic, a Cornish Riviera Centernary set would be a prestige release, though (but would really need 7 diagrams of coach). They might also give the opportunitiy for the Super Saloons to be modelled. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted May 22, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 22, 2012 Any of the toplight coaches, especially brake compo's which went inter company / region, which could stretch from the GW lake livery through to scrapping. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
coachmann Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 I was one half of a company that painted coaches for 32 years and in all that time the GWR 1912-22 maroon livery, and indeed toplights, were hardly ever asked for. Times must be a changin'. And the most popular GWR coaches? Easy: 1922-29 bow ended stock and the 70 footers. One can only hope the RTR manufacturers are doing their homework. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 There are a couple of issues with producing Toplight stock: 1. There were a number of varieties - 57' or 70', panelled or steel-sided (and variations within the panelled stock), turnbuckle or truss underframe - the build period spanned 14-15 years.. 2. Most of the 57' panelled stock (which seems to be what most people think of) was in distinctly shabby condition (patched panels etc) by the time it got to the mid-1930s, and only got worse. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Higgs Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 GWR coaching stock was a mass of variety, and in many ways the antithesis of the standardisation which is often claimed of Swindon products. Any attempt to represent it with the typical RTR selection of 3-4 coach types is doomed to failure. For what it's worth my favourites are the so-called South Wales Stock which was used on the Riviera from 1924-29. 70' long sides with bow ends (some of them anyway) and the longest of all GWR coaches. Chris Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold gwrrob Posted May 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2012 Back on topic, a Cornish Riviera Centernary set would be a prestige release, though (but would really need 7 diagrams of coach). They might also give the opportunitiy for the Super Saloons to be modelled. Adrian If they release them Adrian they will also need to remodel the King into a new decent version tp pull them. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 If they release them Adrian they will also need to remodel the King into a new decent version tp pull them. Not necessarily. West of Plymouth it would be a Castle and they have a shiny new one of those. While it was east of Plymouth the train would likely have had extraneous (non-Centenary) coaches attached anyway. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deano Posted May 22, 2012 Share Posted May 22, 2012 Are modellers of the Great Western region that restrictive on themselves? I thought modelling railways was an opportunity to run the trains you like, I'm referring to the famous "modellers licence". By the way Centenary's are a lovely looking piece of rolling stock. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold The Stationmaster Posted May 22, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 22, 2012 Are modellers of the Great Western region that restrictive on themselves? I thought modelling railways was an opportunity to run the trains you like, I'm referring to the famous "modellers licence". By the way Centenary's are a lovely looking piece of rolling stock. I don't think so - while there are clearly various preferences I think most of us who model the Western in some way or another would prefer to see scarce development/manufacturing sources devote to something of much wider usefulness on an everyday basis. Producing the Centenary stock is probably most akin to producing the LNER or LMS streamlined sets when very little else is available for those railways in the way of everyday (Pre-War) coaching stock - lots of gloss but limited utility when other coaches would be far more useful. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted May 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 23, 2012 I agree that both types of coach were restricted on the network because of their width, but that hasn't really been an issue for manufacturers before. Hornby are currently offering Hawksworth coaches in GWR livery when most of them went straight into Crimson and Cream from new. Actually GWR livery is very sensible. I actually I only think I have seen two colour schemes. OK Seen a few in Choc & Cream, a few in green. I sort of remember a train trip to Cornwall where the gangways moved funnily*, I was around 3 or 4 and would have been mid 60s. * Worked out BS not Pullman more recently but I remember the whole gangway moving rather than sliding. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted May 23, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 23, 2012 I tried to buy a C54 once but had no money and only managed to raise £20 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 23, 2012 Share Posted May 23, 2012 Not necessarily. West of Plymouth it would be a Castle and they have a shiny new one of those. While it was east of Plymouth the train would likely have had extraneous (non-Centenary) coaches attached anyway. Adrian At various times in it's history the CRE did not stop at Plymouth and the King came off at Newton Abbot and it was Castle/Grange worked to Penzance. There were times (usually summer Saturday's) when bookings were so high, the CRE was worked as three separate trains with the King on the main train only. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium OnTheBranchline Posted May 24, 2012 Author RMweb Premium Share Posted May 24, 2012 So there's no general "Cornish Riveria" coaches that would be a generally agreeable timeline set? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Coach bogie Posted May 24, 2012 Share Posted May 24, 2012 So there are no general "Cornish Riveria" coaches that would be a generally agreeable timeline set? Difficult to agree a timeline set. First train in 1904 was clerestory stock with 70ft Dreadnought diner. The first train, on 1/704 was hauled by 102 La France Up to about 1925 stock used early Churchward 70ft paneled stock changing to Dreadnaughts sets, Concertina sets, both usually with 57 ft toplights used for the Minehead and St Ives branch portions. From approx 1925 the first of the Collett steel sided stock (as per the older Triang/Hornby coaches), combined with South Wales stock 70ft vehicles. Complete trains of 70 footers were rare due to restrictions of the longer vehicles on certain routes. From 1929 the recessed door stock, imaginatively known as 1929 stock appeared. The diners become a complex issue. For several seasons an articulated three car diner set was used as the matching 3 coach diners were not ready. From 1932 newer two car set (H39/40) was used (as per the Westward kits). One train that often was formed of a uniform rake of 1929 stock was the Torbay Express. The CRE remained like this until 1935 when the Centenaries appeared. As Coach clearly covers, the widest and most restricted of all the GWR stock. Contrary to popular belief, the only time a matching set would appear on the down service would be either on the Taunton to Penzance leg or if the Penzance section was a separate train. Why? There was never a Centenary slip coach requiring older stock for the Weymouth and Minehead sections. The up train did not contain the previous days slip portions so a complete uniform rake was possible. The make up was not 'conventional' compared to other trains as the CRE had SIX brake composites that did not go through to Penzance but deposited at various places for St Ives, Falmouth, Newquay, Ilfacombe, Minehead & Weymouth The F23 1929 double ended slips continued to be used. Airfix/Dapol/Hornby models are approaching forty years old. A revamp would be good though I suspect there are many (including me) who have used Comet sides to produce the missing variants. From 1938 Collett newer F24 slip began to appear, as did newer Collett stock (as Bachmann). Collett's influence included the maintenance side of the GWR and each coach had a planned operations/maintenance routine to follow. Winter months saw many substitutions as coaches went through overhaul/decontamination etc. With so few Centenaries, uniform rakes in non summer months. Even on the up service, were not common. When the CRE was worked as three separate trains on Summer Saturdays, Old Oak struggled to find appropriate stock and the often written 'GWR trains contained no two coaches the same' became a fact, as older stock, much of which had not been used for some time, appeared. Many GWR coaches and sets had complex diagrams and often took several days to return to the start point, so removing stock from other workings was difficult. As for what would be a good release in the future commercial/desire will be an issue. Retooling the existing ex Triang/Hornby coaches with more variants (at least ten I can think of) would cover many different periods, liveries, uses and range (several appear in Eric Tracy books behind LMS streamlined Coronations). 70ft stock would be nice but potential sales limitations as to use - of little use to branch line modelers of which there are many. Toplights come up with regularity but a nightmare for a manufacturer. What period/livery/bogies etc. They had such dramatic visual changes throughout their lives. The GWR started plating over the toplights, replacing paneled sections/doors in the thirties. By BR days few resembled an 'off plan' toplight. 1929 stock has been suggested. Long lived, several livery variants possible, diners an issue as below, GWR routes only due to 9ft 7" width but major sales potential for mainline trains. Of no use personally as I have spoent 10 years building a train of BSL 1929 stock. This brings us back to late thirties Collett stock similar to the Two Bachmann's. 1936 low waist stock was used on major expresses such as the Bristolian and Cheltenham Flyer, long lived, six variants I can think of, several livery variations, use existing Bachmann 9ft bogies, major sales potential for mainline trains. 1938 stock (as Bachmann), used throughout the system, long lived, more nomadic due to lesser 9ft width, nine variants I can think of, several livery variations, use existing Bachmann 9ft bogies, major sales potential for mainline trains. Any pre 1936 Dining vehicles is a challenge as they went through several rebuilds, window alterations, bogie changes etc so again, manufacturers will not be able to please everyone. Whatever happens in the future, the existing Collett’s are long overdue for retooling. Mike Wiltshire Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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