arran Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 HI All While fixxed cameras dont seem to be able to tell the differance in vehical, the wee man in the van can. No ive never been done in my Transit van "touch wood" you have to watch out as there always looking to meet there targets the easy way. Regards Arran Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Welly Posted May 29, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 29, 2012 Hire one of these - that will solve all your weight problems! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pennine MC Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 ... Make sure the tyres are also rated for the load/speed being carried (including cars). Check very carefully, especially those 'bargains' you may have bought! ... Doesnt this fall under the responsibilities of the hire company? I appreciate the driver is still liable, but it'd be a p*ss poor hire company that sent a vehicle out with illegal tyres. While fixxed cameras dont seem to be able to tell the differance in vehical, the wee man in the van can. I was given to understand a while ago by a man 'in the trade' that some of them cross check the relevant databases, so will 'know' the maximum allowed for a given vehicle. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 I am being a bit more specific here to those that own as opposed to hire. BUT, its not just relevant to vans but any car as well, including estates, often seen loaded to the gunnels on the way to shows Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lankyphil Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 It's quite easy for them to do now. VOSA have WIMS. Weighing In Motion System. It basically weighs each axle of the vehicle, takes a photo of the tax disc, the Operator's licence, all the axles (if you have lift axles on a HGV), the driver and the numberplate and then compares it to the DVLA database, then flags it up to VOSA (or some traffic police) on a computer screen so that they can have a nice friendly chat with you. Apparently it's more accurate in weighing something at 56mph than most weighbridges are at 0mph... There's at least 12 around the country. But they won't let on/admit to where all of them are. They've admitted that there's one at Perry Bar on the M6 but that's all I've heard of. So it's not a question of "if", but more rather "when"... [Grumbly whine]Haven't seen any of these people with a fully loaded car and a caravan with the hitch dragging along the floor because they're both massively overloaded stopped yet though... [/Grumbly whine] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackRat Posted May 29, 2012 Share Posted May 29, 2012 ]Haven't seen any of these people with a fully loaded car and a caravan with the hitch dragging along the floor because they're both massively overloaded stopped yet though... Come 'down west'!!! Most caravanners are surprised to find out what 'nose weight' is! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium MJI Posted May 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2012 It's quite easy for them to do now. VOSA have WIMS. Weighing In Motion System. It basically weighs each axle of the vehicle, takes a photo of the tax disc, the Operator's licence, all the axles (if you have lift axles on a HGV), the driver and the numberplate and then compares it to the DVLA database, then flags it up to VOSA (or some traffic police) on a computer screen so that they can have a nice friendly chat with you. Apparently it's more accurate in weighing something at 56mph than most weighbridges are at 0mph... There's at least 12 around the country. But they won't let on/admit to where all of them are. They've admitted that there's one at Perry Bar on the M6 but that's all I've heard of. So it's not a question of "if", but more rather "when"... [Grumbly whine]Haven't seen any of these people with a fully loaded car and a caravan with the hitch dragging along the floor because they're both massively overloaded stopped yet though... [/Grumbly whine] I see loads - also seen them hit the ground. Seen snaking on a hill going up at around 50. My parents have seen a Golf and an Astra towing twin axles. And think that I take a lot of care (weigh the hitch, air adjustable rear shocks ect) so I am OK. I was overtaking the snaking one as well as by properly loading the van I am able to safely run at 60 up the hill, BTW I didn't set it off! I have a few other comments but not sure on the legality of it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lankyphil Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Come 'down west'!!! Most caravanners are surprised to find out what 'nose weight' is! Good. Can you get a transfer a bit further north now please? If you could cover a bit of north Wales or the Lake District it would be much appreciated ;-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
br2975 Posted May 30, 2012 Author Share Posted May 30, 2012 Now, if I hadn't fallen asleep during the'Plating & Testing' lesson, I would most likely have avoided this pickle ! . Brian R Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
hmrspaul Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 [Grumbly whine]Haven't seen any of these people with a fully loaded car and a caravan with the hitch dragging along the floor because they're both massively overloaded stopped yet though... [/Grumbly whine] During the summer, the police regularly check car/caravan combinations at a lay-by just off the outer York ring road on the A64 to Scarborough. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium PhilJ W Posted May 30, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted May 30, 2012 There is a film on youtube of a Renault 5 struggling up a hill towing an enormous caravan. You hear it stall and the drivers attempt to re-start followed by the combination rolling backwards out of control past the camera! IIRC any trailer pulled by a passenger car must not exceed 2/3rds of the cars empty weight. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady_Ava_Hay Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 Something else people don't take into account is the speed limit, it is not the same for these vehicles as it is for cars, on a single carriage national speed limit road it is 50mph. I think you will find that this is a Highway Code idea and not actually statutory. I also believe that any vehicle plated at less than 3.5 tons is taxed PLG just like your car ( although at a much higher rate ) and is not subject to the speed limits. Anything above that or indeed minibuses are fitted with speed limiters anyway. You can drive any vehicle plated under 3.5 tons on a car licence but any thing above requires an HGV. Since a date that I now forget, you have to take an HGV test but older licences like mine can drive up to 7.5 tons. This does not apply to any minibus. You now have to have a full PCV licence to drive those unless they are 8 seats or less. By the way any minibus is rated at the number of passengers so a 16 seat bus actually carries 17 if you include the driver and 8 seats becomes 9. The Transit Luton was always an anachronism and was also subject to an unladen weight limit in order to be taxed at the same rate as cars back in the days when it was all flat rate anyway. The stunts we used to pull to get them under the weight don't bear repeating. The other poor load carrier was the Transit tipper. Steel body and ram and tipping hinges, a level load of wet sand and it was over the gross by a wide margin. These modern panel vans are a better bet anyway having a usable cubic capacity and payload greater than the Luton. Some of the bigger ones are plated at over 3.5 tons. Most of these rules and regulations are a mish mash of European legislation and traditional UK practice. Slowly they are being amalgamated. There are still huge anomalies. The latest EEC ruling is that you cannot drive an HGV without a driver qualification card as well as the appropriate licence. Whether that applies to the grandfather rights re 7.5 tons is still unclear. Certainly my PCV licence requires the upgrade by September 2013 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adrian Wintle Posted May 30, 2012 Share Posted May 30, 2012 You guys don't think big enough for caravans... you need a 1-ton crew-cab dually pickup truck (preferably with a big turbo-diesel) and a fifth-wheel connection with a 25'+ caravan. No load issues there, althout it might not fit on UK roads. For layout transport, we use a 16-17' cube van (like the Luton body Transit, only bigger and on a more substantial chassis)*. Typically rental versions of these have a 5 to 6 litre gasoline V8 and a respectably high load capacity (approx 3000kg). Our standard driver's license (Ontario class G) allows one to drive "Any car, van or small truck or combination of vehicle and towed vehicle up to 11,000 kg provided the towed vehicle is not over 4,600 kg" (but not a motorcycle, a bus carrying passengers, or an ambulance) - the trailer can be over 4600kg if it is a fifth-wheel caravan towed by a pickup truck. This license allows a lot of flexibility in transport arrangements. *The layout is a roundy-round of 24' x 18', built on 2 x 8 frames with 1/2" ply, so it is a bit on the weighty side. Adrian Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Tony_S Posted May 30, 2012 RMweb Gold Share Posted May 30, 2012 I think you will find that this is a Highway Code idea and not actually statutory. I also believe that any vehicle plated at less than 3.5 tons is taxed PLG just like your car ( although at a much higher rate ) and is not subject to the speed limits. Anything above that or indeed minibuses are fitted with speed limiters anyway. You can drive any vehicle plated under 3.5 tons on a car licence but any thing above requires an HGV. Since a date that I now forget, you have to take an HGV test but older licences like mine can drive up to 7.5 tons. http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Roadsafetyadvice/DG_178867 The above link seems the correct answer to "how fast can I drive a van?" It gives some examples of car derived vans that can use car speed limits and speeds for vans under 3.5 tonnes that use goods vehicle limits. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
298 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 You guys don't think big enough for caravans... you need a 1-ton crew-cab dually pickup truck (preferably with a big turbo-diesel) and a fifth-wheel connection with a 25'+ caravan. No load issues there, althout it might not fit on UK roads. I've seen a few imported ones at American Car shows, but I'n not sure how they or their drivers were licenced. Although you can't argue with the Police reacting to something illegal, I think it'd be better for the education to start at the hire desk instead of catching someone in the act, as others have said and backed up by a friend who works in Traffic but is now permanently assigned to a desk due to "cutbacks", roads Policing isn't what it used to be. As for WIMS, surely a good location for one would be just outside a scrapyard...? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
peanuts Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Most of these rules and regulations are a mish mash of European legislation and traditional UK practice. Slowly they are being amalgamated. There are still huge anomalies. The latest EEC ruling is that you cannot drive an HGV without a driver qualification card as well as the appropriate licence. Whether that applies to the grandfather rights re 7.5 tons is still unclear. Certainly my PCV licence requires the upgrade by September 2013 you find these rules are called driver cpc or certifacate of profesional competance you MUST hold a cpc card to drive any vehicle over 3.5 tons or that fall into the tacho regulations from september 2013 .REGARDLES OF WHEN YOU PASSED YOUR HGV PSV OR CAR LICENCE with grandfather rights for 7.5 ton or not this WILL affect some people towing larger trailers or caravans you will be required to do 35 hrs course work spread over five modules to obtian your card which will be valid for five years over which the 35 hours course work must be repeated at your expence average cost per module is £140 ! yet another tax on drivers along with a digi tacho card at £34 a pop is getting bloody expensive Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noiseboy72 Posted May 31, 2012 Share Posted May 31, 2012 Even pick up trucks are classed as commercial vehicles, if their payload exceeds I think 1T. And most do, as if they carry less they are taxed as cars not commercials. PLG does not mean that the van speed limits do not apply. There are plenty of car derived vans that can carry more than the statutory weight limit. CPC has nothing to do with being able to drive HGVs. You only need it if you drive them for commercial gain. So you can rent a 7.5T truck to move house or move your club layout, but not take your sales stock to an exhibition. You would also need an operators licence, transport manager, approved base... From the VOSA website: Driver CPC (Certificate of Professional Competence) has been introduced across the European Union to maintain high driving standards and improve road safety. All professional bus, coach and lorry drivers must hold a Driver CPC if they want to drive goods vehicles in excess of 3.5 tonnes or minibuses with 9 seats or more for a living. It doesn’t affect people who drive vehicles for the non-commercial carriage of passengers or goods for personal use. When I did my past CPC unit, the common thought was that introduction would be delayed, as 20% of drivers won't have completed the hours. The CPC training is a farce. I could take the same 1 day course 5 times and get my card. The content and breadth of training is down to the private training providers. They only get very basic supervision and the rules are quite vague. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Premium Siberian Snooper Posted June 1, 2012 RMweb Premium Share Posted June 1, 2012 When I did my past CPC unit, the common thought was that introduction would be delayed, as 20% of drivers won't have completed the hours. The CPC training is a farce. I could take the same 1 day course 5 times and get my card. The content and breadth of training is down to the private training providers. They only get very basic supervision and the rules are quite vague. That's pretty much what our company are doing for one day a year. Teaching Granny to suck eggs. SS Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Talltim Posted June 1, 2012 Share Posted June 1, 2012 Valid point...IIRC the much smaller Transit Connects also fall into this category and the same rules apply...even though they are capable of much more. How do you define 'car derived' tho'? The Connect is built on the floor pan of the original Focus, I make that car derived. Although they officially have a GLW of 2040kg so kinda moot point. Can you get the max GLW changed? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lankyphil Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 How do you define 'car derived' tho'? The Connect is built on the floor pan of the original Focus, I make that car derived. Although they officially have a GLW of 2040kg so kinda moot point. Can you get the max GLW changed? Basically a car bodyshell with some windows plated over. The best example being an astravan? Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjcampbell Posted June 2, 2012 Share Posted June 2, 2012 Is the question when is a van car-derived, or when is a van car-derived? Where does the Citroen Berlingo sit, for example? And how far have we wandered off-topic? :-) Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
lankyphil Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 Is the question when is a van car-derived, or when is a van car-derived? Where does the Citroen Berlingo sit, for example? And how far have we wandered off-topic? :-) [tongue in cheek] Approximately 18.3476 feet off topic... I think... Quick, hide! I hear the keystrokes of a moderator [/tongue in cheek] Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 ....I would give another - quite different about Luton bodies. Watch out for any damage above cab height. ... Slightly off-topic, but the Hire Companies are now looking at the roof's of standard Transit Vans, apparently painters etc., have used them as 'scaffold'/'platforms' to reach up the sides of buildings and dented /damaged the roof. So make sure they check the roof before you set off in the van, don't be caught for a prior hirers damage when you return it. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jenny Emily Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 On the odd occasions I have rented a Luton van, I have always specified without taillift because of the weight issues. As for driver CPC - £140 is a bit steep. The average I'm being quoted per course is around £50, and the cheapest (which I have been doing every three months) was £27. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penlan Posted June 3, 2012 Share Posted June 3, 2012 A useful warning. It would be wise to estimate the weight of a large layout (balancing boards on bathroom scales?)....... I did this, each 2' x 3' MDF board, complete with scenics etc., weighs approx 14kgs, the fiddle yards weigh 18Kgs each.... and so it builds up. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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