Raise speed limits on heritage lines?

[roythebus]

Not sure whether this should go in discussions, questions or preservation..

 

As we all know , the line speed on most heritage lines is 25 mph as covered by the light railway order. In this day and age there is a good argument for that limit to be raised. For instance, the KESR has a number of level crossings which slow the overall journey time, so when the Robertsbridge extension opens, the total journey time will be more than most families with kids can realistically do. Yep, install half barrier crossings to speed journey times.

 

How about the Bluebell, t'Moors and most other railways that use big engines which have to trundle along at 25 when they were designed for higher speeds. I'm not envisaging main line speeds, but maybe 40 mph, to give longer lines a shorter journey time and the thrill of hearing a loco work properly.

 

I know there's arguments against: experience of staff; wear and tear on the stock; is the track suitable; is the infrastructure up to the job with faster running.

 

One railway I go to in Belgium is limited to 15 km'h due partly to track and infrastructure, but also has no continuous brake; every train needs a brakeman on every coach. Their current journey time is about an hour for a round trip; if they extend the full length of their line the journey would be far more interesting but the journey time at 15km/h would be unacceptable even for most enthusiasts.

 

Having been on a few heritage lines, I find a lot of footplate staff don't seem to know how to use the vacuum brake properly. This may be because they're not experienced with using it at any sort of speed, so additional training there would be needed. I was taught to drop the vacuum to about 18" to set the brake, then apply it further if needed; don't play with it! Likewise with the air brake, a much rarer beast on heritage lines. With the Westinghouse you only get 3 applications before you run out of air, so arguably more skill is needed there.

 

So, discussion, for and against....

[Guest Max Stafford]

I think in some respects you've answered your own question Roy. Whilst it would indeed be gratifying to see our machines worked that bit harder, until a line has demonstrated that it has an acceptable level of experience and skill among it's personnel I don't think there's a realistic prospect of increasing line speeds in general at the moment. If it does come, I suspect the ORR will only grant it on a line by line basis when the operator in question can demonstrably achieve a higher and more relevant standard in terms of the infrastructure quality and the competence level of its staff.

 

We're aiming high at the Border Union Railway, but realistically, the higher speed scenario is a way off for us as yet.

 

Dave.

[cary hill]

Some joker wrote into our local paper to complain that the GCR was not running at high-speed as "advertised" when he visited recently. He has been put right by a subsequent reply, but I don't think he would be happy with a 40mph limit, as he seemed to be expecting something akin to the old "mile a minute" schedules between Loughborough and Leicester.

[roythebus]

Part of the "other" thinking is that with an increasing number of people using sattelite technology to get the speed of trains. As most steam locos don't have speedos fitted, it may be difficult for loco crews to keep strictly to the 25 limit. I know a lot of heritage railways use speed guns to check speeds at times; this brings the risk of suspending staff from duty with the possibility of losing volunteer staff.

 

Overspeeding is not neccesarily a safety hazard or dangerous, though not to be encouraged. ISTR reading an internal BR memo years ago which put the increased lateral track forces as the square root of the additional speed. I'm not a mathematician so it meant little to me as a driver. But, breaking the limit a bit on fairly straight plain line should not mean any problems.

 

I agree a lot more staff training will be needed to run at higher speeds.

[LMS2968]

Many passengers see value for their fare as the time spent travelling on the train. Faster speeds wouls reduce this, and while the enthusiast might be a bit happier, Mr and Mrs Joe Public might be less so. Raising average speeds will also have an effect on loco, infrastructure and track maintenance and repair, particularly with smaller engines and lighter track.

[Edwin_m]

Another layer of safety leglislation kicks in at above 25mph - some of the exemptions that heritage railways currently enjoy would no longer apply to any that wish to go faster. In view of the several recent serious incidents on heritage railways (not wishing to comment on any specifically) it's likely that any that want to exceed 25mph would face some pretty close scrutiny of their paperwork and practices.

 

Some railways such as the GCR have permission to run faster on non-passenger days, and make some good money from rolling stock testing, but higher speed operation carrying passengers may be a different kettle of fish.

[John_Hughes]

It's worth remembering that the Light Railway Orders were originally intended for lines with minimal - or no - fixed signalling, light track, light loadings and sub-main line standards of maintenance.

 

While some of these factors may still apply to some 'heritage' lines today, many are effectively worked to BR's old main line standards, with professional crews, full 'lock and block' signalling and well-maintained assets - often better looked after than when they were in 'real' use.

 

So taking the shackles off, at least on a case-by-case basis, would seem reasonable. After all, no-one would force any particular operation to change their current practice if they didn't want to.

 

Either way, watching Tornado mooching along the Llangollen's nicely-kept track a few weeks ago was a sad reflection of what she's really about...

[Oldddudders]

The preservation movement probably has enough issues in the current depressed financial climate. Increasing the cost of track maintenance is hardly going to be popular, and, as said, the wear and tear on rolling stock and locos is also calculable. There is a risk that the movement might find itself split into camps - the higher-speed lines potentially creaming off the enthusiast market, reducing the remaining 25 mph railways to a "second division" status, attractive only to families. I also support the view that if safety performance were spotless then a case for increasing speeds might be made, but fear that is not quite the case everywhere.

 

Keep 'em jogging along at 25, I say.

[coachmann]

Doesn't the GCR have permission to run faster than 25mph because of its double track section? A pedestrian 25mph behind a branchline loco or even a large freight loco sounds good from the carriage. But 25mph behind a plodding Pacific is a bit naff, although on the other side of the coin they are always a welcome sight!

[Coldgunner]

Giving that some heritage lines are only a few miles long, I'd be saddened to have my steam ride somewhat shortened by a faster line speed.

[Horsetan]

Doesn't the GCR have permission to run faster than 25mph because of its double track section? ...

 

I think that's only when there are no fare-paying passengers on board. Tornado was tested there at up to 60mph.

 

There was some discussion about whether they might seek permission to go to 40mph for the paying public, but I can't see that happening for a few years yet.

[The Stationmaster]

Another layer of safety leglislation kicks in at above 25mph - some of the exemptions that heritage railways currently enjoy would no longer apply to any that wish to go faster. In view of the several recent serious incidents on heritage railways (not wishing to comment on any specifically) it's likely that any that want to exceed 25mph would face some pretty close scrutiny of their paperwork and practices.

 

Some railways such as the GCR have permission to run faster on non-passenger days, and make some good money from rolling stock testing, but higher speed operation carrying passengers may be a different kettle of fish.

 

They face a fairly close scrutiny of their paperwork already - and more than a few (including some big names) have been found wanting in that respect - and from what I have seen and heard more than a few can also be found more than wanting in some of their practice as well as the admin (and some have been). I think it would be difficult to get footplate staff with sufficient experience for safe faster running on a regular basis and notwithstanding what has been said previously some railways (including, again, some well known names) simply do not have infrastructure which is anywhere near the right standard should larger locos be involved at higher speeds.

 

So leave 'em at 25mph and sit back and enjoy the longer journey time.

[37255]

I did initially also think along the 'recent incidents' line; however, on reflection, I can't think of any taking place at more than walking pace for some years. There are, of course, many other barriers, but I'm not sure that increasing line speed mid-section is going to have any significant impact on the numbers of low-speed shunting incidents!

[The Stationmaster]

I did initially also think along the 'recent incidents' line; however, on reflection, I can't think of any taking place at more than walking pace for some years. There are, of course, many other barriers, but I'm not sure that increasing line speed mid-section is going to have any significant impact on the numbers of low-speed shunting incidents!

But as Roy as already said, and I alluded to, higher speed running does challenge the skills (assuming they exist). As a Driver said to me many years ago 'any fool can make this thing go; stopping it is the hard bit'. Higher speed means not just the loco but the track, the bridges, other structures and the rolling stock - with a need for daily brake adjustment etc.

[37255]

Oh aye very true, I simply meant that I can't recall any recent incidents of crews being unable to control a loco at (or above, we know it's happened from time to time, as do all the relevant bodies...) 25mph - almost all incidents being low speed shunting errors which could happen with a line speed of 5mph or 150mph - I doubt any of these incidents have involved trains travelling even close to 25mph. That doesn't mean to say that the bloke who's spent the past 20 years driving an austerity along a flat 2 mile line at 15mph is suddenly ready to do 60, but I couldn't foresee the former style of preserved line suddenly becoming the latter.

[IWCR]

The 25 mph limit is a hangover from Light Railway Order days, if any railway wishes to operate at faster speeds then they are free to produce a safety case to do so, however faster speeds means more safety precautions:

Automatic barriers on crossings?, fine, wheres the money coming from?.

Slam doors on stock? central locking or stewards needed, cost again and staffing.

Higher standard of track, formation, sleepers, rails etc more cost.

Wooden bodied heritage stock? surviability in an accident?.

Staff experience and training?

Most heritage railways are operating at a relatively low speed, this means a train can stop within the distance the driver can see, superficially a minor consideration however this allows the railway to effectively be considered a tramway hence lower required standards than for a full railway,

 

Yes all doable at a cost, but what for? Heritage Railways need to operate as an attraction to survive, by far the biggest customer are people looking for a day out, not the enthusiast.

They are the place for recreating the past (with varying degrees of success) and allowing the general visitor to have an enjoyable day out. They can also operate safetly locomotives and stock which would be uneconomic or indeed uncertifiable for use on the main line.

Yes the enthusiast wants to see big engines working hard at speed, not really pratical on heritage lines the majority of which where lightly constructed branch lines..

This is where the main line rail tours come in to their own.

 

Pete

[37255]

Yes the enthusiast wants to see big engines

 

Speak for yourself! But otherwise very informative.

[Kenton]

Isn't there enough main line working specials to keep the speed freaks happy?

 

In a different age all journeys were not about speed records and it was more about running a reliable service between stations. I wonder back in the 1920's just how many locos exceeded 25mph especially on suburban lines?

 

I am happy trundling along at any speed appreciative of the volunteers who put in time to run these lines for everyone's benefit. Requiring a more professional and inevitably qualified and restricted group of "volunteers" to operate at high speeds would spoil that.

 

If speed is what I wanted I could catch a regular express, if nostalgia of longer journeys then there are the excursions.

[PLD]

Between Grosmont and Whitby, the North Yorkshire Moors Railway follow the same speed limits as the Northern Rail trains over that section. (Limit is 50/60 most of the way though the schedule only requires 25ish average and therfore max needed is around 40-45mph unless trying to catch up time). It does give an interesting contrast when a loco that seemed so docile ambling along at 25 from Pickering is unleashed by an enthusiastic crew!

[roythebus]

Some good points made above. I was thinking of upping the speed on some of the longer lines where the "family on a day out" can find an hour's journey each way can become a bit strained, especially on compartment stock with no corridor, no toilets, and screaming 3 year olds! so the 1 hour journey becomes a 2 hour 20 minute journey allowing for the run-round at the end.

 

I'm sure many of the branch lines could safely be upped to say 40 mph without too many problems.

 

Meanwhile I suspect the paperwork and staff suitability will come under further scrutiny before too long in the light of recent incidents. the only non-shunting accident I can recall in recent years is that where the loco ran through a set of gates when running push-pull. Gwili was it? Or the 2 fatalities on the RHDR caused by car drivers ignoring crossing lights.

 

Regarding crossing gates, again I would bet the H&S fraternity would like manned gates done away with on H&S grounds, regardless of cost.

[The Stationmaster]

 

Meanwhile I suspect the paperwork and staff suitability will come under further scrutiny before too long in the light of recent incidents. the only non-shunting accident I can recall in recent years is that where the loco ran through a set of gates when running push-pull. Gwili was it? Or the 2 fatalities on the RHDR caused by car drivers ignoring crossing lights.

 

I don't think there would be any problem with the paperwork per se - the problem is more one of ensuring the standards that the paperwork requires are actually enforced and arriving at a sensible mechanism for achieving that (which is where I have some big question marks as PhilH and I were discussing only yesterday - it's the old question of 'who examines the examiners?' and regrettably some of the experience needed to do that is sadly lacking or not encouraged by those who seem to prefer a 'box-ticking' mentality which in reality serves little real purpose and is in any case already coming into disrepute elsewhere in the world as a means of standards monitoring and professional management.

 

If a railway can't get things right at slow speed (e.g when shunting) how do we know it has the necessary attitude and skill development to get them right out on the running line? Shunting and low safety is simple and basic and readily monitored by experienced observers, what happens with train running is far more complex and not so easy to observe from an independent monitoring viewpoint.

[lmsforever]

Would not want a raised speed limit on our line its a typical GWR branch line and a high speed would not suit,also the track would need a lot of work especialy one stretch that is being very problamatic due to the prescense of old watercress beds.

[siltec]

A few years back I visited a heritage railway in France. They were running a 'picasso' railcar, the one with the cab sticking up on the roof. Anyhow as it was quiet I was invited to have a closer look at the drivng position. Heritage railways in France are really laid back. Anyhow what really surprised me was the 'spy in the cab' speed recorder. It was obviously original as it was one of those brass devices with a vertical cylinder and a pen, and it was working, and he was keeping to the limit. Limit was around 30 kph, about 20 mph, obviously a similar light railway restriciton.

 

From my limited experience of a heritage railway from the operating side I would suggest that 20 mph is as fast as any of them should go. While the up front elf and safety, orange jackets etc, is operated by hordes of enthusiastic jobsworths, behind the scenes while there is nothing actually unsafe, the kit is generally really only good for slow speed operation.

 

Those organisation preparing locos for mainline operation work to current industial practises, usually with some paid staff and decent kit. I doubt if most heritage railways could afford to go down that road.

[PhilH]

I'm staying out of this one, except I'm afraid to say a lot of nonsense has been spouted already in this thread such as:

 

From my limited experience of a heritage railway from the operating side I would suggest that 20 mph is as fast as any of them should go. While the up front elf and safety, orange jackets etc, is operated by hordes of enthusiastic jobsworths, behind the scenes while there is nothing actually unsafe, the kit is generally really only good for slow speed operation.

 

The truth of the matter is, as has already been stated in one of the more sensible posts, that apart from two galas a year the people who really keep preserved railways going are mum, dad and 2.4 kids who are not half as interested in how fast they are going as they are in if there is a decent play area for the kids or not.

 

But as I said, that's my lot on this one - it's obvious people are ignorant of, or don't care, what goes into running a preserved railway

[Rugd1022]

In answer to the OP I'd say keep it at the current 25mph - some very good points have alrerady been adressed by Mike and PhilH etc. I'd just like to add that even if the infrastructure of certain preseved lines were 'beefed up' to allow more than twice that speed, the experience in handling such speeds cannot be gained overnight and would, in all likelyhood, need to be entrusted to outside professionals, as of course would the necessary monitoring, an option which certainly wouldn't come cheap. It would take a considerable amount of time to achieive enough experience before being allowed to drive at high speed unsupervised. As an example, some freight TOCs require new drivers to do something like 250 - 275 hours practical handling in all sorts of conditions, a process which can take anything up to a year depending on location and workload..... the cost of doing so on a preserved line would be atronomical and finding enough spare people to do it would be difficult.

 

Mike's quip about ''any fool can drive one of these things, it's stopping the ###### that's the hard part'' rings very true, I've heard it from virtually every other driver I've worked with since 1982 yet some folk (mostly on other railway forums I've encountered, not so much on here I'm happy to say) still think it's a doddle. You could, say, have the same loco and set of coaching stock running up and down your chosen line right through the Summer season but every brake application you make at the same 'spot' would not necessarily feel the same. The perception of speed and distance (and your own reactions to them) at 60mph are very different to those at 25mph, you'd be surprised just how far you can travel between sighting a restrictive signal and getting your sticky mit on the brake handle. It's not just the footplate crews who'd need to adjust to the higher speeds either, as P/Way workers would probably need to be retrained.

 

Leave things just as they are..... if you do want to experience a bit of high speed, go and see the travelling TPO pick ups at the GCR, or travel on any other train on that line during an intensively worked gala and enjoy the sight, sounds and feel of another train passing at a combined speed of 50mph on the double track section between Loughborough and Rothley...!