Hayfields turnout workbench

[hayfield]

Wish I lived near Chelmsford John!! Although I've nothing problematic at the moment it would be great to pick up some tips off you in flesh

 

Cheers

 

 

If you are ever in London, just a short distance away

 

John

[Junctionmad]

This could be a drawback, but with things like wing rails I make the angles slightly tight. Glue the half not next to the vee and let set overnight. The gap now between the wing rail and Vee should be very slightly under gauge, just slip in a wing rail gauge then again let the solvent cure overnight no need for fettleing.

 

If you use gauges there is no need to fettle, unless the gauge is too tight and will not let the head of the rail rotate, this will result in gauge narrowing.

 

Thanks John , using C&L 00-SF gauges , which are very shallow , so should be fine , I think it just needs more attempts and practice , keep up the thread here, its great .  

 

Dave 

[PjKing1]

If you are ever in London, just a short distance away

 

John

Thanks John, heading back to London is defo on the to do list soon (well next year) so I'll hold you to that

 

As always keep up the great work, cheers

[hayfield]

That does look good. Is this the personal project?

 

One more question John, this time about the Exactoscale special chairs. For a single slip, would one need to buy 2 obtuse crossing sets and 2 slip road sets or just one of each? (in addition to 2 common crossing sets) I don't quite understand the abbreviations they use on the website and there isn't any description

 

Quentin

 

Edit: Nevermind! I see you've written this before. Only 1 of each.

Quentin

 

Somehow I misses this post and agree with you that the C&L website could make more of what I see as a terrific asset than they do, but then again they are running a business and must concentrate on the most profitable side first, for the benefit of others I will firstly describe the chairs. These chairs are designed for the Exactoscale P4 Company turnout and crossing kits, the odd position may need adapting

 

Common crossing chair pack will make one each of the following angles :- 1-5, 1-6, 1-7, 1-8 & 1-10

 

A, B or C switch chair chair pack will make 1 right hand and 1 left hand switch (you still need slide chairs) either 2 of the same or both different

 

Check rail chairs 0.68 mm and 0.8 mm enough for 10 common crossings, the former for P4 as is the latter for P4 gauge widened or for EM & 00 gauges modified

 

Obtuse (K) crossing will do 1 crossing either 1-5, 1-6, 1-7 or 1-8, you will need 2 packs for a diamond crossing and one for a single slip

 

Slip chairs will make either a 1-7 or a 1-8 slip, a double slip requires 2 packs

 

Bridge chairs come in packs of 100 chairs, depending on size a turnout will use between 3 and 7 of these

 

Small chairs, only used on slips a couple at a time

 

A diamond crossing will use 2 x common crossing packs and 2 x obtuse crossing packs, also 2 x check rail sprues and a few bridge chairs and of course normal chairs

 

For a single slip replace one obtuse crossing pack for a slip pack, for a double slip replace both

 

Details of which chair goes where can be downloaded from the C&L site. For most instances these chairs can be treated as functional for the respective sizes given, they can of course be partially cosmetic if required. You can also use the nearest size for other angles but treat as cosmetic

 

I hope this helps

[martin_wynne]

Just interrupting John's topic for a moment. Sorry John.

 

For anyone who has been put off trying Templot for their templates by the horror stories, I have recently updated the "Your first printed template" video.

 

You don't need to master Templot just to print a basic turnout template. In fact you don't need to know anything about it at all -- just follow the video.

 

It takes only seconds to make a few clicks and be printing a template.

 

You can watch the new video by going to:

 

 http://templot.com/companion/your_first_printed_template.html

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

Martin

 

No hijack at all, just add whatever you think is needed, even those who follow my thread and do not build track themselves seem to enjoy and appreciate you contributions   

[hayfield]

Ordered some Exactoscale turnout and slip P4 Company kit bases. These should make P4 turnouts even easier and expect will also be quite easy modification to use them for EM gauge. May be a few weeks before I can start them

[Junctionmad]

 

 

For anyone who has been put off trying Templot for their templates by the horror stories,

horror stories , tell us more Martin. 

[hayfield]

horror stories , tell us more Martin. 

 

 

For what ever reason many fellow modellers seem to think building turnouts is difficult, in the same vein they go into Templot fail to watch any of the tutorials within Templot club then wonder why they cannot easily produce a copy of Euston Station.

 

For track building many fail due to not having anyone to show then how, the internet now has several tutorials available and the products available are better. The same with Templot, either get some help or use the online resources available. 

[Derekstuart]

You can also do a lot worse than put a template on screen and then run through all the options and see what they do. If you don't get the result you want then you can always CLEAR ALL TEMPLATES and start again.

 

Trial and error worked for me.

[Junctionmad]

I find Templot fancinating , as a Mac programmer , the way martins brain works is often brilliant but counter intuitive

 

Anyway back to turnouts

[mightbe]

I find Templot fancinating , as a Mac programmer , the way martins brain works is often brilliant but counter intuitive

 

Anyway back to turnouts

 

I remember my dad once saying my grandfather was a veritable genius, provided you did the exact opposite of what he said. Is it anything like that? 

 

Quentin 

 

(for the record I love templot, even if I don't understand all the functions yet!)

[Derekstuart]

In what way is it counter-intuitive? The modern interpretation of 'intuitive' in respect of technology is that procedures are obvious, clear and well set out.

 

Perhaps Templot needs a wizard feature so beloved of many computer users these days. The problem I could see with that is that there are so many options that the wizard would take just as long to complete as pressing a few relevant buttons. You can produce basic turnouts with just 3 clicks that follow a very clear and obvious procedure. More complex formations, with limitless permutations cannot by definition follow an overly intuitive process.

 

The above is my opinion as a Templot user only and I am not in a position to speak for Martin (note that Capital 'M' btw), but if you do not mind me saying that referring to him in the passive third person in a thread in which he has already contributed is not cricket.

 

I find Templot fancinating , as a Mac programmer , the way martins brain works is often brilliant but counter intuitive

Anyway back to turnouts

 

With apologies to Mr Hayfield for contributing to the thread hijack.

[hayfield]

Will be at Scaleforum (24-25 September) on the C&L stand again this year helping Phil out as the London (rather than the main) stand will be there owing to Peters back problems. Phil holds quite a lot of stock for a small stand (though it is 50% bigger since the addition of another table) and usually at Stoke Manderville shows additional supplies are sent, but the range and stock levels are not as big. It is always best to pre-order items to save disappointment, especially if visiting on the Sunday. Do come and have a chat, I am selling rather than displaying, but if anyone wants to see anything in the flesh do give me a call/message.

 

Working on some Timbertrack bases at the moment, will upload a photo or two later, as I said earlier a small selection of Exactoscale P4 company bases has been ordered (well they are on a discounted price till later tonight, as are the P4 Company full kits) I am anticipating that they will be a great addition to the home builder in both P4 and EM gauges, simply if you build your own common crossings and switch rails the cost of parts is very reasonable. In addition as the bases are plastic certainly in EM but I think (and will be building) also in P4 you can use a pre-made Vee and use the Exactoscale chairs to fit the wing rails rather than solder up the common crossing

[Junctionmad]

In what way is it counter-intuitive? The modern interpretation of 'intuitive' in respect of technology is that procedures are obvious, clear and well set out.

 

Perhaps Templot needs a wizard feature so beloved of many computer users these days. The problem I could see with that is that there are so many options that the wizard would take just as long to complete as pressing a few relevant buttons. You can produce basic turnouts with just 3 clicks that follow a very clear and obvious procedure. More complex formations, with limitless permutations cannot by definition follow an overly intuitive process.

 

The above is my opinion as a Templot user only and I am not in a position to speak for Martin (note that Capital 'M' btw), but if you do not mind me saying that referring to him in the passive third person in a thread in which he has already contributed is not cricket.

 

 

 

With apologies to Mr Hayfield for contributing to the thread hijack.

I have no idea what the passive third person is , perhaps they used to be known as chaperones when one went dating in past years !

 

I say " counter intuitive " merely because modern GUIs have a style and action guide , that are fairly standard across applications. Programs that predate this trend Autocad springs to mind and Templot tend to have " non standard " look and feel and it's the only area I would offer a critique on Templot. In modern GUIs , we use the mouse in a select and action paradigm and Templot is very different , having more in common with the likes of AutocD then modern ground up GUI apps

 

( yes Martin , I know it's not a cad program , I am merely drawing comparisons )

 

I've done a huge amount in Templot recently and as many of said , it's a great program.

 

Apologies John for the diversion , but I felt I had to respond , back to normal programming and your fabulous thread

 

Dave

[martin_wynne]

I say " counter intuitive " merely because modern GUIs have a style and action guide , that are fairly standard across applications. Programs that predate this trend Autocad springs to mind and Templot tend to have " non standard " look and feel and it's the only area I would offer a critique on Templot. In modern GUIs , we use the mouse in a select and action paradigm and Templot is very different , having more in common with the likes of AutocD then modern ground up GUI apps

 

Hi Dave,

 

At the risk of extending this incursion into John's topic, I have seen similar comments several times over the years.

 

What no-one ever provides is specific examples. I genuinely do not know what is wrong. What are you clicking or pressing that you don't like? What is happening as a result that shouldn't happen? What should happen instead? Or what should you be clicking instead?

 

If I can change things without losing any functionality I will, but not if it means starting again with a blank sheet of paper, because I doubt I have enough lifetime left.

 

 

I find Templot fascinating, as a Mac programmer, the way Martin's brain works is often brilliant but counter-intuitive

 

 

I'm glad someone knows how my brain works, because it has always been a mystery to me.

 

There are much younger and brighter brains about. For some time now I have been hoping that someone will come up with an alternative to Templot, so that after all these years I can forget about the whole thing and go and sit in the park and feed the ducks.

 

But so far no-one has.

 

Jeff Geary has done his Trax program, which can print prototypical straight turnouts and is fine as far as it goes, but it is mainly about electrical control and signalling.

 

How about you?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[hayfield]

 

A timber tracks LSWR B6 turnout base, quite a strange timber layout both in the varying width of the timbers but also the length of some of them

 

edit

Must take a photo out of direct sunlight as the contrast is too high, have a new iPhone whilst the camera is much better than the last one must get used to it

Edited August 31, 2016 by hayfield

[martin_wynne]

Hi John,

 

With the Timber Tracks bases, how are you removing the plywood webs from between the timbers after assembly? If you don't do that they are going to be very visible and make difficulties with ballasting.

 

Removing them strikes me as a very tedious task (4 or more cuts per timber) with a great risk of damaging the pointwork in the process.

 

Compared with the very much simpler traditional process of cutting plywood strip to length (1 cut per timber, no risk of damaging anything) and sticking it on a paper template?

 

I never did understand the point or purpose of the Timber Tracks bases. Especially in view of the greater cost and wastage of material.

 

regards,

 

Martin.

[Junctionmad]

 

 

How about you?

 

regards,

 

Martin.

good god no, the cobblers children feet are always barefoot .  Ive enough software in the day job !

 

I'll follow up your comments for opinion in the Handbuilt track section on rm web 

 

dave

[hayfield]

Martin

 

I do have some reservations with Timber Track bases, having said that it does give you a quick start to building the track. The webs are very easy to remove and I guess it is a payback time for all the time saved cutting the timbers

 

This fret is on one hand very interesting being of LSWR design and having a mixture of 10", 12" & 14" wide timbers, the switch length differs from the REA standard lengths, its where the timber increments increase that looks odd, but not having any reference to compare it with I cannot comment on its accuracy  

 

I am torn between ply and plastic timber bases, both need a completely different painting technique and in skilled hands like everything else you may not tell the difference

 

Plastic timbers give you a much stronger bond, but needs a bit or artistry to look convincing, where as ply is much easier to get a decent finish using stain, but if covered in a thick coat of paint the effect is totally lost

 

Waiting for the postman who hopefully has my Exactoscale turnout bases

[hayfield]

 

Hopefully a better view of the Timbertracks turnout

 

 

Here is an Exactoscale P4 track base for an A5 turnout

 

 

I am hoping in one of the photos the locating pips on the timbers show up

 

 

These pips on the timbers should aid those building in P4 gauge, my idea for using then foe EM gauge as well is to use a sharp scalpal blade to slice off the pips (except for the vee) so I can position the rails for EM gauge, The time saved by not cutting the timbers will be used removing the pips but the base will remain as one unit and the timber ends will all be nice and square

 

Looks a very promising addition to the Exactoscale parts list.

 

Will be a few weeks before I can start a build but is an ideal candidate to try out adding the wing rails with (functional) chairs not soldering it up with the Vee, which I hope some will find an easier method to use

[Izzy]

I am torn between ply and plastic timber bases, both need a completely different painting technique and in skilled hands like everything else you may not tell the difference

 

Plastic timbers give you a much stronger bond, but needs a bit or artistry to look convincing, where as ply is much easier to get a decent finish using stain, but if covered in a thick coat of paint the effect is totally lost

 

 Although I have only ever used ply sleepers, not having been able to get along with plastic sleeper track in any form, I have never used anything other than poster paint to colour them and the finshed track. I tried stain but found that it tended to prevent the plastic chairs from grabbing quite as strongly to the ply grain as to bare sleepers if applied beforehand, and still affecting the joints if used after fitting the chairs. I now only paint the poster paint on the sleepers after building the trackwork, whether pointwork or plain track. Watered down black PP to give an initial faded creosote colour to the sleepers, which seeps well into the ply grain, followed by various combinations of Burnt Sienna, Burnt Umber, and more black, applied mostly via an airbrush after ballasting, to give a muted tone to the whole trackwork area.  Somehow I find that ply sleepers seem to give a different 'look' to trackwork which I prefer.

 

Izzy

[hayfield]

Izzy

 

It may well been that I use spirit based stain, but found no issues either way. Water based stain or dye may have some chemical which affects the solvent taking hold

 

Paint it too thick on ply timbers as it fills up the grain, I agree ply looks far better providing the plain track is also ply. For large layouts or those which are exibited often I would opt for plastic on strength grounds, but the timbers will subtle painting for greater effect

[Derekstuart]

ply is often criticised for having too coarse a grain to represent a scaled up sleeper. I found (by accident) that painting them with a modestly diluted enamel and then when just on the point of going off, washing over with black tinted thinners brought the grain down a bit. Then when dry- 2 or 3 days- gentle single swipe with fine wet and dry.

 

Certainly that came up with what I think to be a good representation of old tarry/ creosoted sleepers where the tar is starting to leech out.

 

As sleepers are so cheap, paint several in different colours using different methods and see what happens.

[hayfield]

The thing with ply sleepers is providing you use a thin coat of stain you do get a variable colour effect, having said that you still have to paint the rail, chairs and ballast. The latter can again be painted with a much diluted wash. With plastic sleepers the best effect I have seen is after painting a base colour is to dry brush shades on to them, but you must be artistic. Still each to their own and that one of the things which keep us going with the hobby in that we never really master too many of the skills we require and always strive to improve

 

Next up is a code 82 flatbottom B7 turnout, back to manual filing as my common crossing and switch blade jigs are for bullhead rail