chaz Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 (edited) Following on with the JLTRT buffers... Like me you will probably need to enlarge the hole in the collars to get them to fit on the back of the rams. They are far too small to hold effectively to drill, although you could do it while they are still on the sprue. This didn't occur to me until it was too late but there is a way to get this job done. You will need an appropriately sized cutting broach and the type of pin-chuck that has a hole right through it. push the collar onto the broach and along the taper until it grips. Now you can use the broach as a handle whilst you slide the collar into the pin-chuck. With the collar just inside the jaws fasten the chuck so that it's secure. You can now use the broach to enlarge the hole. Don't be too ambitious - a very light twirling action will avoid the brass collar snatching on the broach and slipping round in the pin-chuck. With such a small part it doesn't take much effort to get the hole to a size where it will slip easily onto the buffer ram. Chaz Edited January 10, 2016 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 10, 2016 Author Share Posted January 10, 2016 What's all this timing malarky? Well in view of Mr Waterman's claim that "you can build and paint one of these in a hour" I thought I would record what time it took me to build one. I'm not the fastest worker but given that getting the buffer parts ready to assemble has already taken me 50 minutes ... I will finish off the buffers and then resume timings - if the buffers are done and ready to fit it may be possible to do the rest in an hour - there doesn't look to be anything else in the kit that will be so time-consuming. I have my doubts. I am in fact doing three kits at once so I have spent three hours today getting twelve buffers to this stage and mighty boring it has been. I have, of course only been timing the steps for one van's buffers - but there is some time to be saved by doing all three in tandem. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kev_Lewis Posted January 10, 2016 Share Posted January 10, 2016 Having built a few JLTRT kits with their lost wax buffer castings I know just hot much fettling they take. On the MK1 BSK I have half built I replaced the buffers rather than deal with them. In the future, if I purchase any further kits from JLTRT, I will be asking for them to not supply the buffers. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Graham at NMRS provides good looking buffers, in considerable variety, at £7 per set of 4. Sprung, whitemetal bodies, turned steel heads/shanks. And he's very helpful. Usual disclaimers. HTH Simon Edited January 11, 2016 by Simond Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 Having built a few JLTRT kits with their lost wax buffer castings I know just hot much fettling they take. On the MK1 BSK I have half built I replaced the buffers rather than deal with them. In the future, if I purchase any further kits from JLTRT, I will be asking for them to not supply the buffers. I do sympathise with your view. it does seem strange that a kit that has been designed to be put together quickly should include such a chore. I spoke to Pete Waterman at the Reading show and he explained that the kits had been designed with his Leamington Spa layout in mind - this would require wagons in some numbers and a kit such as a Slater's would just take too long. Do they fiddle about with the lost-wax buffers? Or just replace them, as you have done? As I am writing up the build for the forum, warts and all, I decided to build the kits from the box - the only parts I will add will be the wheels and couplings. I will be discarding the 3 links (wrong anyway for a fitted van) as I use Dinghams on Dock Green. Chaz 1 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Graham at NMRS provides good looking buffers, in considerable variety, at £7 per set of 4. Sprung, whitemetal bodies, turned steel heads/shanks. And he's very helpful. Usual disclaimers. HTH Simon Thanks Simon, for that reference. You will note, from my posting above, that I am building the kits as they come. As I spent a considerable part of yesterday on fettling the twelve buffers for three vans I am over the worst - however if I build anymore JLTRT wagons I might replace rather than face the work. Chaz PS - Despite the claim that one can build and paint one of these in an hour there's no chance that they will be running on Dock Green at St Albans this coming weekend. Even if it were true (and I don't think I could do it - leaving aside time necessary to get the buffers done) I have quite a lot of other stuff to do this week. No matter - I have plenty of stock, I just want to improve the ratio of vans to opens to closer to that of 1959/60. Chaz Edited January 16, 2016 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
RMweb Gold Donw Posted January 11, 2016 RMweb Gold Share Posted January 11, 2016 My preference is for the Haywood buffers. Being ready assembled it does make for a quick job. Don Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Thanks for the warning - now I know which wagon kits I will not be purchasing! John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 (edited) Thanks for the warning - now I know which wagon kits I will not be purchasing! John Fair enough. Judged purely on cost the JLTRT kits are not competitive. Kit costs £40, add wheels £10, discard and replace buffers, £7. So, significantly more than the price of a Slater's or Parkside kit. For me the cost is not so important - I am more interested in the time needed to build one. I have a new On30 layout and every hour I spend on Dock Green is an hour lost to the FVRR - hence my interest in a kit where both the body and the frames only need details fitting. Which is why the buffers are a disappointment - requiring too much work. I will be seeing these three kits through to finished and will write up one of them here with a time log. Chaz Edited January 11, 2016 by chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Isambarduk Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 We are a strange bunch. I actually enjoy working with buffer parts and making them work and look something like the prototype; the buffers are usually the first parts I work on when building a loco or wagon. If a kit includes a solid whitemetal casting that I can use, I take delight in machining out the stock, fitting a brass insert and turning up a new buffer ram/head. What it comes down to, I suppose, is that I enjoy the journey more than the destination so, if the build takes longer but I gain satisfaction from working up new parts or modifying the existing ones, then it has been less expensive entertainment (in terms of £ spent per hour expended). David Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 We are a strange bunch. I actually enjoy working with buffer parts and making them work and look something like the prototype; the buffers are usually the first parts I work on when building a loco or wagon. If a kit includes a solid whitemetal casting that I can use, I take delight in machining out the stock, fitting a brass insert and turning up a new buffer ram/head. What it comes down to, I suppose, is that I enjoy the journey more than the destination so, if the build takes longer but I gain satisfaction from working up new parts or modifying the existing ones, then it has been less expensive entertainment (in terms of £ spent per hour expended). David I must agree with you, David. It is satisfying to make something work, especially if the kit designer has made it a challenge. However sometimes I find myself reflecting on how just a small change would have made life easier. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 Twelve buffers to assemble - a tricky job to hold and solder as I am not blessed with asbestos fingers - and how to get them all with the same amount of ram projecting? A few minutes spent making an assembly jig would solve both problems. A piece of scrap brass slotted and folded up will do the job. To make it easier to use I screwed it to a pine offcut. Here is a buffer in the jig about to be soldered. I put the retaining collar in place and put a trace of Fluxite on the projecting bit of the ram. My usual preference would be for a liquid flux but the tiny coil spring would be at risk of corrosion if this were to flow along the ram - which it probably would. The small circle just in front of the iron's tip is a fragment of 145 solder. If the amount of both flux and solder is kept to a minimum there should be no risk of locking the whole buffer solid. Here is a buffer assembled with the collar soldered to the ram. With the jig to hand the time to solder up four buffers was 10 minutes. That brings the time spent on the buffers for one wagon to about an hour, not counting a few minutes spent using Casey's Brass Black on the buffer face and front part of the ram. Chaz 6 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
John R Smith Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 I must agree with you, David. It is satisfying to make something work, especially if the kit designer has made it a challenge. However sometimes I find myself reflecting on how just a small change would have made life easier. Chaz Well, much as I respect your skill and tenacity, in my view a product sold as a kit to make "whatever" should work, with no fuss. You should certainly not have to effectively finish machine or redesign various components before they are usable. I find it outrageous what the retailers of model railway equipment get away with, presumably because the purchasers of it seem to enjoy a "challenge". If you have paid good money for something that doesn't work properly out of the box, it is not a challenge but an insult. John Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 11, 2016 Share Posted January 11, 2016 Not wholly in agreement, John. I do enjoy fiddling and fettling to "improve" my models, so if the kit requires an hour's work to make the buffers work acceptably, I'm not in a race, and it might well be a pleasant way to spend an evening. I'm not sure that your idea of "fuss" would be mine, or vice-versa, and it's going to be difficult to draw a hard-and-fast line that suits every modeller, without making it all far too horribly expensive. But I'm not an apologist for poor quality: what I don't like is bits that don't fit / won't work / must be replaced / take hours longer that they are supposed to. But phrases like "aid to scratch building" or "unmachined castings" are pretty clear, and then if that's what you want, you can purchase, and if not, then you are well advised to steer clear. From Chaz' post, it seems that the JLTRT wagons take very much more time to assemble than they advertise: I understand that the finished article is satisfactory, so perhaps they should simply amend the "it only takes an hour...", tag to a more realistic estimate. On the other hand, I've had the "joys" of almost unbuildable kits (couple of them, but you can't buy them anymore so no names needed) which when built, would not run without many parts being removed and remade. Indeed, I even turned the chimney, sv cover and dome! This is the kind of nonsense that gets the hobby a bad name. If you follow Chris' (too many spams) thread about his 1366, you'll get a flavour of poor kits. Best Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 Well, much as I respect your skill and tenacity, in my view a product sold as a kit to make "whatever" should work, with no fuss. You should certainly not have to effectively finish machine or redesign various components before they are usable. I find it outrageous what the retailers of model railway equipment get away with, presumably because the purchasers of it seem to enjoy a "challenge". If you have paid good money for something that doesn't work properly out of the box, it is not a challenge but an insult. John It's a view that has been expressed many times before and with which I have a lot of sympathy but you do have to reflect on the origin of many of the kits on our very small market. The J50/1 etched brass kit which I built some time ago is an extreme example, many parts of which I had to replace. But it would be unfair to characterize the JLTRT kits as in the same league. The buffers can be made up as intended - yes you have to put in some work filing away sprues, but don't you have to do that with the plastic kits we build? My criticism is that a kit that was expressly designed to be quick to build includes parts that are anything but. I have made up the buffers and they work well - it just took a while. Chaz 2 Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 11, 2016 Author Share Posted January 11, 2016 From Chaz' post, it seems that the JLTRT wagons take very much more time to assemble than they advertise: I understand that the finished article is satisfactory, so perhaps they should simply amend the "it only takes an hour...", tag to a more realistic estimate. Simon I feel I ought to comment... I don't think we can hold JLTRT to "it only takes an hour...". This was said in a conversation I had with Pete Waterman at a show as an illustration of how easy he considered his kits to be to build, and if one leaves aside the time spent making up the buffers it might well be a more reasonable estimate - I can post on this again when I have finished one of the vans. It does seem unwise to predict a maximum time for a kit build - it's going to depend on too many unknown factors - not the least the abilities of the modeller. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simond Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Chaz sorry if I misquoted! thanks for the clarification Simon Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Twelve buffers to assemble - ... - and how to get them all with the same amount of ram projecting? A few minutes spent making an assembly jig ... . A piece of scrap brass slotted and folded up will do the job. I shall be put this idea to good use... thank you, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 12, 2016 Author Share Posted January 12, 2016 I shall be put this idea to good use... thank you, Graham Nice to know I've been helpful. It's probably worth taking the time to make up a jig like this even if you only have the four buffers in one kit to do. it makes the soldering a doddle and they do all come out the same. I have stashed my jig in the drawer labelled "wagon buffers". Should I buy another JLTRT kit it's ready to go! Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 12, 2016 Author Share Posted January 12, 2016 Chaz sorry if I misquoted! thanks for the clarification Simon No problem Simon. I just didn't want an otherwise good kit to be "slagged off" unduly. Anybody unwilling to put in the work fettling the buffers (and getting the rams fettled is a PITA) has the option of buying replacements. Anyone who has built a few 7mm kits is likely to have faced a few problems along the way. Perfection is unavailable. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
N15class Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 The buffer jig is a good idea, it can also aid setting up on the loco or wagon by having the fork behind the buffer plank. I will be stealing the idea. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
chaz Posted January 12, 2016 Author Share Posted January 12, 2016 The buffer jig is a good idea, it can also aid setting up on the loco or wagon by having the fork behind the buffer plank. I will be stealing the idea. Ah, yes, that hadn't occurred to me. Good shout! Of course it would possible to use the same jig as the spring compression would hold the buffer guide against the headstock/buffer beam. It might need a little trimming to get it to fit - depends how much room there is. The nice thing is that having a holding jig gives the chance to adjust the buffer guide to exactly the right angle. Chaz Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Western Star Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Should I buy another JLTRT kit it's ready to go! In our case we use the JLTRT Oleo buffers from the TTA kit on models from other manufacturers, eg. Cat and Dogs, so the idea shall have much greater application than just JLTRT kits. regards, Graham Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
HealeyMills Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Hi Chaz, What a great idea you have come up with. The jig is great.... the amount of time I seem to spend chasing components about the table top to solder them is unbelievable. Cheers Lee Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim.snowdon Posted January 12, 2016 Share Posted January 12, 2016 Thanks for the tip on the jig. It's just a pity JLTRT couldn't do what almost everyone else does and put a 12BA thread on the tail of the buffer stem when it was machined. Jim Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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