Class 03 runners on the Mainline?

[b*ggeredupclass03]

Ok, so correct me if i'm incorrect, but class 03s made the odd foray on to the mainline.

Did they take their runner wagons with them or not?

Also, they did work freights, as well as acting as depot shunters/station pilots, didn't they?

[TheSignalEngineer]

One used to be booked to work the Albion trip from Monument Lane in the mid-1960s

[Mark Saunders]

Yes, because they still need to activate track circuits on the mainline!

 

Mark Saunders

[DaveF]

They took their runner with them in the north east as this one I took heading south at Morpeth shows.

 

 

David

[DavidLong]

Dr. Michael Rhodes in 'Diesels in South Wales' has a photo of 03 141 on the MWFO return Llandovery to Llandeilo Junction (30 miles each way on the Central Wales line) trip on 18/6/1982. The return consisted of 2 x 16T + 1 x 21T + 1 x BR Standard Brake Van. The second photo which shows 03 141 shunting 9B96 at Llandovery suggests that it had arrived with a couple of Vanwides and three loaded coal wagons for the coal merchant in Llandovery.

I also seem to recall that 03s worked trains on the Waveney Valley line in the freight only era in the 1960s and I would suggest that after steam had been removed in areas of the country that small shunters, including 03s, were quite regular performers on running lines. Although they only had 204hp available their top speed of 27m.p.h. was considerably in excess of that of 08s which would be some advantage in main line running. Interestingly there are quite a lot of photos of small shunters on the main line in the 1960s but no runners are with them. Does anyone know why it was found necessary to have runners at later periods as track circuits were hardly unknown in the '60s.

 

David

Edited June 26, 2012 by DavidLong

[Mark Saunders]

Dr. Michael Rhodes in 'Diesels in South Wales' has a photo of 03 141 on the MWFO return Llandovery to Llandeilo Junction (30 miles each way on the Central Wales line) trip on 18/6/1982. The return consisted of 2 x 16T + 1 x 21T + 1 x BR Standard Brake Van. The second photo which shows 03 141 shunting 9B96 at Llandovery suggests that it had arrived with a couple of Vanwides and three loaded coal wagons for the coal merchant in Llandovery.

I also seem to recall that 03s worked trains on the Waveney Valley line in the freight only era in the 1960s and I would suggest that after steam had been removed in areas of the country that small shunters, including 03s, were quite regular performers on running lines. Although they only had 204hp available their top speed of 27m.p.h. was considerably in excess of that of 08s which would be some advantage in main line running. Interestingly there are quite a lot of photos of small shunters on the main line in the 1960s but no runners are with them. Does anyone know why it was found necessary to have runners at later periods as track circuits were hardly unknown in the '60s.

 

David

 

It was found that short wheelbase loco's could have problems activating track circuit as they could get lost in the gaps at points/junction giving a false cleance and by adding the runner it gave the extra length to ensure this did not happen.

 

This did not happen with 08's as they have a long enough wheelbase to avoid this problem!

 

Also it was not till this period that track circuit block came in to fashion as prior most were only berthing circuits.

 

Mark Saunders

Edited June 26, 2012 by Mark Saunders

[Downendian]

Bath Road's 03 382 worked the trip to Stoke Gifford yard from Bristol East Depot on at least one occasion - I saw it. It was almost always an 08 or BRs only two 09s 09 024/025.

 

Neil

[Phil Bullock]

One used to be booked to work the Albion trip from Monument Lane in the mid-1960s

 

Always wondered what the Brum 03s did - only saw them in 67 or 68, D314 towing 4 of them through New Street en route to Springs Branch I suspect

 

Phil

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

Always wondered what the Brum 03s did - only saw them in 67 or 68, D314 towing 4 of them through New Street en route to Springs Branch I suspect

 

Phil

One was regularly the North Western side pilot at New St, standing in the sidings between platforms 3 & 4, while another worked the Harborne Branch in 1962/3.

[The Stationmaster]

The Swindon 204hp shunters (long before they were Class 03 of course) worked various branches and that involved them working over ordinary running lines. There never was any WR Instruction that I can find about them having difficulty operating track circuits nor was there anything applying to the PWM65X series locos (however diesel railbuses were covered by an Instruction as was some on-track plant).

 

The use of runner wagons with 204hp/Class 03 shunters seems mainly to have been an ER/NER idea and I believe it was related to the design of track circuits used in pointwork - TSE might know more about that?

[scorpion]

This did not happen with 08's as they have a long enough wheelbase to avoid this problem!

 

 

slightly OT, but the 08s at Doncaster station had runners as they crossed the main lines, the works and yard shunters didn't

[TheSignalEngineer]

From memory I can't recall the small 0-6-0 shunters having runner wagons on the LMR, or even the 0-4-0 ones except for the Coventry pilot which was used for shuttling parcels from platform 3 to the Parcels Depot by platform 1.

 

I will look a bit deeper when I can access some of my old notes next week.

[br2975]

I've a couple of (poor quality) slides of a brace of Landore 03s 'cab to cab' running light on the South Wales main line from Carmarthen Bay Power station toward Llanelli.

.

The Landore allocated 'noddies' didn't use a match truck/runner but could be seen with a GWR style shunter's truck, especially when working Burry Port yard.

.

The Bristol Bath Road allocated 'noddies' when working the yard at Lawrence Hill would be semi-permanently coupled to a 'runner' wagon which could be a BR steel open or even a BR 'Plate' wagon (whatever appears to have been available).

 

Brian R

[Chris Turnbull]

In the '60s Bury St Edmunds had an 03 for shunting the yard (only they weren't 03s then). Like the J69 (68497 I think) which they replaced they did trip workings via the main line to the sugar beet factory and the like. Unlike the J69 which was serviced at the then extant shed, every month or so the 03 would disappear off to Cambridge to be replaced by another 03 half-an-hour or so later. That would last a month when it, too, would swap over. And so on, etc, etc, etc.

 

Chris Turnbull

[45125]

I know our 204s had to have a runner when the Goole docks pilots were being swapped over, even when a pair was swapped over. The track circuit issue in some areas lasted till the demise of 03s on station pilot work, 08s also used to disappear at some location i.e. Doncaster.

 

On certain lines that could be affected by climatic changes, other forms of traction used to just disappear, but being mechanical boxes the Bobby usually had a good idea where things where.

 

Al Taylor

[Fat Controller]

As Mike and Brian R have mentioned, the Landore 03s used to run quite happily without runners- the Burry Port pilot used to run past my school without anything attached, either on one of its rare trips to fuel up at Landore or simply to stable at Llanelli goods shed for the weekend. There were some that worked even further afield; Whitland had one as a station/yard pilot in the mid/late 1960s. The shunter's truck at Burry Port was used more in conjunction with working into Marcroft's sidings (which were a bit 'rustic') rather than for actuating track circuits.

[5944]

Saw this posted on Twitter today. Even today, activating track circuits seems to be a problem occasionally.

 

http://www.railjournal.com/index.php/europe/dutch-safety-authority-bans-light-engine-movements.html?channel=537#.T-t8fpE2dnQ

[Mark Saunders]

Saw this posted on Twitter today. Even today, activating track circuits seems to be a problem occasionally.

 

http://www.railjourn...37#.T-t8fpE2dnQ

 

That is why class 59's had the autosanding fitted with an isolation switch for light engine movements.

 

Mark Saunders

[The Stationmaster]

Saw this posted on Twitter today. Even today, activating track circuits seems to be a problem occasionally.

http://www.railjourn...37#.T-t8fpE2dnQ

 

Problems of various kinds have beset the operation of different types of track circuits for well over a century. One of the earliest concerns was the effect of sand but others have ranged from vehicle length such as Class 03s in certain parts of the country right through to sheer lack of contact with the railhead (Class 142 dmus) and electronic effects from traction equipment. Plus of course track circuits themselves can suffer failures although the wrong side variety are pretty rare nowadays.

 

All of which is why some folk prefer axle counters - which bring a whole load of new problems as well as offering some solutions.

[TheSignalEngineer]

 

 

Problems of various kinds have beset the operation of different types of track circuits for well over a century. One of the earliest concerns was the effect of sand but others have ranged from vehicle length such as Class 03s in certain parts of the country right through to sheer lack of contact with the railhead (Class 142 dmus) and electronic effects from traction equipment.

 

I once had a report of a DMU disappear several times before being taken out of traffic whilst invisible to the signalling system in New St station. It turned out to have a fault on the carraige lighting which was falsely energising track circuits of one polarity but not the opposite.

The control system on one type of LUL stock generated in the rails a frequency used by Reed track circuits in dual electrified areas.

Other failures could be caused by battery effect in wet concrete sleepers or contaminated ballast.

[br2975]

I make no apologies for the quality of this photo - it was an opportunist shot, taken with a Zenit E from the backseat of a moving Rover 90 with a cheap telephoto stretched to its' limit (there, how many apologies in one hit ?).

.

Taken circa May 1979 showing a pair of Landore 03s heading 'up' the South Wales main linetwixt Burry Port and Llanelli

 

I think Brian W will be able to give a more accurate location.

 

Brian R

[Gwiwer]

Don't forget also that a number of 204hp shunters (a/k/a class 03) were semi-permanently paired as master and slave units in a manner similar to the better-known class 13 locos. Unlike the 08s paired for Tinsley hump shunting which became that class the 03s retained both driving cabs and as far as I know both sets of controls remained operational. Those pairings were in the NER area and allegedly due to the unreliability of the short-wheelbase locos to operate track circuits as much as for tractive effort lifting substantial loads in the likes of Tees Yard.

 

03s on the SR and WR never seemed to have runners. They operated on the main line at Bournemouth (between Boscombe and the depot at Bournemouth West) and ran to Eastleigh for maintenance at times quite happily. The WR ones were no strangers to main running lines from London to Cornwall and west Wales.

 

What might make an interesting comparison would be the even shorter wheelbase 0-4-0 types which also never seemed to require a runner - unless anyone knows different - and which also made some forays onto the main line at times.

[Mark Saunders]

Please remember it was only the Light Locomotive moves that caused the problems with track circuits.

 

Mark Saunders

[The Stationmaster]

Please remember it was only the Light Locomotive moves that caused the problems with track circuits.

Mark Saunders

 

 

But apparently - from evidence in this thread alone - only in certain parts of the railway network, elsewhere the locos ran about quite cheerfully on lines equipped with track circuits. And as these track circuits included ones which locked points and block instruments as well as controlling signals I'm quite sure there would have been Instructions galore should the slightest problem occur - there certainly were for all sorts of things (one of which on the Western was not only much longer than a 204 shunter but only ran anywhere coupled to its match wagon).

[br2975]

Don't forget also that a number of 204hp shunters (a/k/a class 03) were semi-permanently paired as master and slave units in a manner similar to the better-known class 13 locos. Unlike the 08s paired for Tinsley hump shunting which became that class the 03s retained both driving cabs and as far as I know both sets of controls remained operational. Those pairings were in the NER area and allegedly due to the unreliability of the short-wheelbase locos to operate track circuits as much as for tractive effort lifting substantial loads in the likes of Tees Yard.

A number of the Landore based 'noddies' were also wired for multiple working, with the connections emerging from the rear cab wall - requiring them to operate "cab to cab".As such these locos could stay 'conjoined' for several months.The most common role for these locos were the Burry Port & Gwendraeth Valley coal workings, commonly with the pair at the front and a single 03 banker at the rear on trains to Cwm Mawr, and usually with all three at the front on return trains to Burry Port. I have a BR drawing somewhere showing the cab mods for multiple working - must dig it out.Brian R