A question about the Bachmann 85 for those not buying them

[Waverley West]

I really can't see how the Heljan 76 can be a success at that price, which is a great shame. I happily bought a Bachmann 85 even though it will never run under catenary, because the price was within reach for me and the model brought back memories of the WCML in the 80s.

 

Charging sound-fitted 76s for nigh on £300 seems utter madness to me. I'd love one, or even two, sound-fitted ones, even if they aren't perfect, but not at that price. No thanks.

 

An 81, 87, 90 and 91, please Bachmann. And maybe an 86 too (and I'm modelling the ECML in the 80s!).

[ClikC]

Logically speaking, the 81 would be quite a short step for Bachmann now. However, I'm not quite convinced that they will go with it just yet. The 85 was a wild card of an OH Electric loco to produce. But it was the longest lived OHLE loco not yet tackled in any RTR form.

 

The 86 is probably the lowest on Bachmann's list, because both Hornby and Heljan have existing toolings/ research they can fall back on (no sniggering at the back) to produce some quality models. Although. if either of these manufacturers ever take advantage of that is pie in the sky. In all honesty, Hornby don't seem bothered, and Heljan doesn't seem able to learn from it's mistakes.

 

My money is on Dapol doing the 89!*

 

Regards

 

Matt

 

*Which is fine, as long as no one goes near the 83

[frobisher]

The 86 is probably the lowest on Bachmann's list, because both Hornby and Heljan have existing toolings/ research they can fall back on (no sniggering at the back) to produce some quality models. Although. if either of these manufacturers ever take advantage of that is pie in the sky. In all honesty, Hornby don't seem bothered, and Heljan doesn't seem able to learn from it's mistakes.

 

Dapol however do have an 86 produced to modern standards at the same time as the Heljan one in their inventory remember - just it was in N gauge, so guess where I'd put my money on any bets for who might do an 00 one..?

[gronk the shunter]

The 86 is probably the lowest on Bachmann's list, because both Hornby and Heljan have existing toolings/ research they can fall back on (no sniggering at the back) to produce some quality models.

 

 

 

Considering that Heljan's woeful 86 is supposed to be an up to date quality model already and the fact that as you said they never address their many mistakes it looks as though we are stuck with no acceptable model of the most important AC loco built to date. I'd be surprised if Dapol did the same with the 86 as they are with the western. Though I very much hope they do. The western does have a much bigger fan base compared with the electric, at least at present. Hopefully success with the 85 will start the ball rolling and spark(ha ha) up more interest in AC's. I think that although an 81 would seem logical for Bachmann it might be just too similar to the 85 to be successful with impulse buyers. Maybe an 83 or 84 would be different enough to generate more sales. I can certainly imagine a RTC liveried 84 selling well if only for it;s novelty value.

[wombatofludham]

I think when it comes to the question of which AC Bachmann could produce next if they decide to do more it's a case of six of one, half a dozen of the other. They could do an 81 - it could share the chassis, motor and bogies of the 85 but everything else would have to be a new moulding. With the 86, they could share the motor and bogies but need a new chassis and body moulding, so there's not a lot of difference. The 81 only ran to 22 examples in the same basic livery variants as the 85, whereas the 86 ran to 100 examples and if the body moulding is made adaptable like most of their diesel models, could theoretically run to nearly a dozen liveries and nearly half a dozen body variants. In terms of sales longevity perhaps the 86 would make a better return for the additional moulding costs particularly if the more expensive motor unit elements could be shared with the 85?

[gronk the shunter]

The only commonality between 86 and 85 I can see is the bogie side frames, the wheel diameter and bogie pivot centres being different, so to all intents and purposes an 86would be an all new model. It's a brave manufacturer than goes into a small market place with two duplicate models already out there, even if one is overpriced and mis-shapen and the other is old and basic. Better I'd have thought to offer something different first. An 87 maybe a better bet, only one outdated competitor, at least seven livery options and most of the tooling could be adapted to become a 86.

 

Sorry for high jacking the thread and going off topic Jim. I'll get my coat and leave quietly.

 

BTW I haven't bought an 85 yet 'cause I'm skint... but I intend to get one soon.

[frobisher]

The only commonality between 86 and 85 I can see is the bogie side frames, the wheel diameter and bogie pivot centres being different, so to all intents and purposes an 86would be an all new model.

 

Though it would be a new model of an 86/0 which we've not had before

 

It's a brave manufacturer than goes into a small market place with two duplicate models already out there, even if one is overpriced and mis-shapen and the other is old and basic. Better I'd have thought to offer something different first. An 87 maybe a better bet, only one outdated competitor, at least seven livery options and most of the tooling could be adapted to become a 86.

 

The judgement call has to be did the Heljan 86 not sell well because of the errors (and there's certainly a perception of that) or because there was insufficent interest in electrics (and the sales of the 85 will point out if that is true or not). But Dapol definately have the better starting point in the existing N gauge 86 for this if there is a case (though the demand for the N gauge one seemed to be disappointing).

[James90012]

FWIW: my stance is that if Dapol did an 86 - I wouldn't sell my two HJ86s, on the contrary, would benefit as the FL86 would hopefully drop in price! I paid £49 for both my 86s, and that is the most I would pay. They look like 86s and have lights, a smooth powerful motor so I, and many others will be satisfied enough. A class 90 however has an even greater range than the 87, with more? liveries, though Hornby still seem to be doing well shifting them. It's a personal shout, but a class 90 at £80 to high spec (based on 85 prices) would encourage me to place 2 pre orders at least, though it would depend on liveries available!

[steve fay]

Wrong scale unfortunatley, I havent found the room yet for my O gauge layout let alone anything in OO but I would have one in a heart beat. Ive always been fond of the AC's. I hope they sell well and spur on the others to get in to AC models, Surely this would increase the amount of modelers interested in AC modelling because there is really only one good AC model available at the moment, Unless you have the talents of some of the modelers on here to do the super conversions they do.

[wombatofludham]

The only commonality between 86 and 85 I can see is the bogie side frames, the wheel diameter and bogie pivot centres being different, so to all intents and purposes an 86would be an all new model.

 

Precisely - but a new 81 would have to be almost entirely a new model anyway, with only a chassis frame and bogies in common (and probably requiring a new underframe detail moulding anyway). The point I was making is there would probably be little cost saving in tooling up for an 81 as I believe the main cost savings would be the common motor assembly in both models, and as both an 81 and an 86 would require a lot of new mouldings, so why not tool up for the loco with the longer life span, more variations and livery options that requires pretty much everything bar the bogie frames from new than a loco with a much more limited range of options just to save on the cost of a chassis frame?

 

If Bachmann launched with an 86/0, using the same kind of interchangeable front end technology they use on their diesels, they could also do the 86/3 variant at the same time. Moving on, if they then modified the body moulding, they could do the 86/2 and 86/4 variants, followed by the refurbished 86/2s with headlamps and TDM, much in the same way as their Class 57 begat the 47, then the 47 with three roof grilles, then the 47 with cutaway buffer cowls, and now moving onto the 47/7. Their releasing a 47 after Heljan and Hornby (and Vi-trains and Lima...) shows that Bachmann are not afraid to take on other companies existing models, granted the 47 is a 500+ diesel class with a widespread use, but I don't think the Heljan 86 or the Hornby 86 would be a show-stopper if Bachmann felt there was room to develop the AC electric field - in fact I suspect a decent 86 that looks like an 86 would develop the market better than an 81, after all, if you wanted to do a West Coast themed layout using modern RTR models, you could just about make a convincing effort at say a late 60s or early 70s era period based somewhere in the Midlands or Potteries with an 85, and a nice 86/0 together with some blue diesels and dmus. You'd struggle to do so with just the 85 and an 81.

 

Sorry to go a bit off topic although I suppose we are exploring the perceptions of the market which is related to the original poll!

[forest2807]

After the last few months that I have spent cutting, glueing, filling, filing, sanding, scraping, painting, (repeat ad nauseam) I will be b****y furious if someone announces the imminent release of a Class 83.

It's inevitable isn't it?

[ClikC]

After the last few months that I have spent cutting, glueing, filling, filing, sanding, scraping, painting, (repeat ad nauseam) I will be b****y furious if someone announces the imminent release of a Class 83.

It's inevitable isn't it?

 

Hopefully. I blame Andi (Dagworth) for the 85

[gronk the shunter]

Precisely - but a new 81 would have to be almost entirely a new model anyway, with only a chassis frame and bogies in common (and probably requiring a new underframe detail moulding anyway). The point I was making is there would probably be little cost saving in tooling up for an 81 as I believe the main cost savings would be the common motor assembly in both models, and as both an 81 and an 86 would require a lot of new mouldings, so why not tool up for the loco with the longer life span, more variations and livery options that requires pretty much everything bar the bogie frames from new than a loco with a much more limited range of options just to save on the cost of a chassis frame?

 

If Bachmann launched with an 86/0, using the same kind of interchangeable front end technology they use on their diesels, they could also do the 86/3 variant at the same time. Moving on, if they then modified the body moulding, they could do the 86/2 and 86/4 variants, followed by the refurbished 86/2s with headlamps and TDM, much in the same way as their Class 57 begat the 47, then the 47 with three roof grilles, then the 47 with cutaway buffer cowls, and now moving onto the 47/7. Their releasing a 47 after Heljan and Hornby (and Vi-trains and Lima...) shows that Bachmann are not afraid to take on other companies existing models, granted the 47 is a 500+ diesel class with a widespread use, but I don't think the Heljan 86 or the Hornby 86 would be a show-stopper if Bachmann felt there was room to develop the AC electric field - in fact I suspect a decent 86 that looks like an 86 would develop the market better than an 81, after all, if you wanted to do a West Coast themed layout using modern RTR models, you could just about make a convincing effort at say a late 60s or early 70s era period based somewhere in the Midlands or Potteries with an 85, and a nice 86/0 together with some blue diesels and dmus. You'd struggle to do so with just the 85 and an 81.

 

Sorry to go a bit off topic although I suppose we are exploring the perceptions of the market which is related to the original poll!

 

Point taken, I think I got the wrong end of the stick before! The more I think about the more sense it seems for Bachmann to go down the 86 route, there's also the commonality between the 86 and 87 which could be designed in with the 86/1 as a stepping stone between the two. Let's hope it happens. Although everyone seems to think that the 85 to 81 transition is logical I think you're right in that although they look very similar, in reality they are almost completely different. Having said all that though I'd love to see an 84, the ugliest and worst built/designed of all the AC's!

[298]

Point taken, I think I got the wrong end of the stick before! The more I think about the more sense it seems for Bachmann to go down the 86 route, there's also the commonality between the 86 and 87 which could be designed in with the 86/1 as a stepping stone between the two.

 

The 86/1 only uses class 87 bogies, and apart from that, externally the only noticeable unique difference on a /1 is the weak field box on the underframe.

 

Having said all that though I'd love to see an 84, the ugliest and worst built/designed of all the AC's!

Based on the knowledge that I know someone currently building a Loadbank, I'm sure a RTR model will be imminent. And as for ugly, surely the 84's were better looking than E2001...

[ThaneofFife]

The 84s ugliness IMHO was merely an interesting optical illusion courtesy of the yellow paint application which didnt flatter them very well at all.

For that dont/didnt know, the yellow paint ran parallel (plus a bit more in fact) to the angle of the cab front whereas on most of the other ACs it ran vertical. It tended to follow the same angle as the leading windows. From any angle other than the dead ahead position, I always thought the 84s looked like they sticking out their lower jaws

 

It was a similar story with the 83s.

[Swifty11]

To be honest the only reason I haven't purchased one is because it's out of my era and there are other models (quite a few electrics included in that) that I'd prefere to spend my money on. I am tempted just not quite enough

[GordonC]

I'm right in thinking that these locos only ran on the WCML their whole working life? Doesn't that limit their appeal?

 

Best, Pete.

 

If you bear in mind that that includes London, Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool areas and all the way up to Glasgow/Edinburgh, is that really all that limiting a factor? The WCML is hardly like the Gatwick Express or something, it runs though a fair number of the largest cities in the country.

[ThaneofFife]

and its no different to saying the Deltics were only found on the ECML and that thats a limiting factor.

[298]

and its no different to saying the Deltics were only found on the ECML and that thats a limiting factor.

 

Comparing BR's most boring class with the most popular one is hardly a fair comparison (although I'm not saying which is which)...

 

What the 85 now needs is another AC electric, at the moment it's a bit of a lone ranger...

[Traksy]

I don't have one as from all the electrics this would be the most boring one in my opinion. Any other one (save 81) I'd buy. However if there is no announcements next year from any manufacturer I'd get the 85.

[forest2807]

I don't have one as from all the electrics this would be the most boring one in my opinion. Any other one (save 81) I'd buy. However if there is no announcements next year from any manufacturer I'd get the 85.

Don't hold your breath.

 

Boring?

[Roy P]

To be honest the only reason I haven't purchased one is because it's out of my era and there are other models (quite a few electrics included in that) that I'd prefere to spend my money on. I am tempted just not quite enough

That would have summed up my position nicely when Jim S-W posed the original question.

Since then, delays (planned or otherwise) surrounding other expenditure meant that the electric blue AL5 found it's way up my shopping list. Not all "tempteds" manage to do that.

I still don't know what to do with it. At least not until it's got some companions. Any subsequent electrics should be easier decisions having broken the ice so to speak.

Catenary? We'll see!

RP

[Swifty11]

That would have summed up my position nicely when Jim S-W posed the original question.

Since then, delays (planned or otherwise) surrounding other expenditure meant that the electric blue AL5 found it's way up my shopping list. Not all "tempteds" manage to do that.

I still don't know what to do with it. At least not until it's got some companions. Any subsequent electrics should be easier decisions having broken the ice so to speak.

Catenary? We'll see!

RP

Ill second that. It was a nice idea but until someone releases good catenary in rtr I can't see electric trains taking off as much as everyone thinks. L

Plus the manufacturers are using the excuse for not making new electrics is because they have been done before.... Look at the 90, I have seen more detailled concrete than it!

[brushman47544]

If I buy one, and I admit it's a big if as it's somewhat out of region for me, I would buy either an electric blue with SYP or BR Blue with TOPS number, headcodes and double arrow, neither of which have yet been produced by Bachmann. Since much of the time it would be in a cabinet, seeing only occasional use, I am not interested in tweaking the current versions.